Canon of Scripture

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So the more likely explanation is that the totality of Christianity was mistaken for 75% of Christian history (AD 33-1500), and that 75% of Christians (1.5 billion Catholics and Orthodox) continue to have faulty Bibles? Even if you buy into personal interpretation, then most people are interpreting it as part of the Bible! :confused:
1.) What is the totality of Christianity? Surely you realize that not all of Christianity ever accepted the books in question.

2.) The Orthodox have books they deem as canonical that you reject so I wouldn’t be so fast to include the orthodox in an argument on the canon.
 
2 Tim. 3:16 - the inspired Scripture that Paul was referring to included the deuterocanonical texts that the Protestants removed. The books Baruch, Tobit, Maccabees, Judith, Sirach, Wisdom and parts of Daniel and Esther were all included in the Septuagint that Jesus and the apostles used.

One reason Jews rejected the OT deuterocanonical books is because they were being used to verily sucessfully convert Jews to Christianity. The Jewish councils that rejected them (e.g., School of Javneh (also called “Jamnia” in 90 - 100 A.D.) were the same councils that rejected the entire New Testatment canon. Are you basing your belief on a Jewish council that rejected Christ and the Revelation of the New Testament.

Jesus and the Apostles reference these books over and over again. They make reference to the deuterocanonical books or directly quote them at least 85 times in the new testament. Go here if you want proof scripturecatholic.com/deuterocanon.html

I’m afraid that the criteria you use to determine if books are inspired is faulty. 🤷

Peace,

Ryan 🙂
Just saying it doesn’t make it so. Your argument is flawed and here is why.

The septuagint did include the books you call deuterocanonical but the septuagint also included books such as 3 and 4th Maccabees, which the RCC rejects. Following your logic you would have to include books the Orthodox believe to be canonical but you reject.

Additionally, there isn’t just one edition or version of the septuagint. Which version did the apostles use and which books did it include?

I am unaware that Jamnia discussed the books in question at all. Can you provide some documentation for this?
 
1.) What is the totality of Christianity? Surely you realize that not all of Christianity ever accepted the books in question.

2.) The Orthodox have books they deem as canonical that you reject so I wouldn’t be so fast to include the orthodox in an argument on the canon.
“Totality of Christianity” has no (name removed by moderator)ut in what the Catholic Church decides re: the truth.

The Catholic Church never looks to christian communities outside the Mystical Body of Christ for their opinion of doctrine. These christian communities stepped outside of the Church; why should they have an (name removed by moderator)ut into the Truth, since they denied the Truth of Christ’s Church, which he founded?

peace
 
Carthage and Hippo did not decide the canon, period.

They were local councils which published canons for those churches represented.

These canons provide excellent precedent for the canon the Roman Catholic church eventually promulgated as binding upon itself in the 16th century but that’s really all they were.

All adducing these councils can do is show that the canon Rome eventually promulgated was very old.

Which is not something I have argued against.

Between the precedents of these early canons and Trent, biblical scholars were free to question the canonicity of the OT Deuteros.
 
Greetings to you in Christ Ginger…

It would be very nice if one book in the bible could be used as proof that another book is valid. Unfortunately, this is not the case. If it were, there would have been a full canon prior to 382AD. Prior to the Council of Rome, you will find no one any where that agreed on what was scripture, and what was not…
You do realize that after the councils you mention there still wasn’t unanimity in accepting the apocrypha as inspired as many fathers rejected them. In fact, even at the time of the reformation you find leading scholars rejecting the apocrypha.
  1. These were the books in the septuigent (sp). In Other words, they were in the Jewish canon if you will at the time of Christs Ministry.
Please quote a Jewish source for this. The apocrypha were never stored up in the temple and were, as far as I know, never mentioned as being canonical among any of the Jews.
  1. All three councils agreed on the OT Canon. The Council of Rome, Hippo and Carthage.
  2. From this point forward, there was no disagreement till ML.
This is clearly not true as even up until the reformation you had leading scholars such as Cardinals Cajetan and Ximenes rejecting the apocrypha either in part or in whole not to mention the fact that the main study bible of the middle ages (Glossa Ordinaire) rejected the inspriation of the apocrypha.
  1. The ‘Council’ that said these books were invalid was a Jewish Council in about 90AD (could be off on the date).
Can you provide any evidence that the Council of Jamnia discussed the apocrypha?
  1. If it is so glaringly obvious that these books do not belong. Why is it that when the Orthodox Church broke away, they did NOT remove those books. The closest you will find is some Orthodox Churches have a few EXTRA books, but you do not find anything close to the Protestant Canon.
Does the orthodox canon match yours?
  1. If these books did NOT belong, why did no one challenge them in the Eastern OR Western church.
Already addressed.
  1. Why would you want to depend on the opinion of a single man. No Council, no Group consensus. ML decided on his own that these books were not valid
He wasn’t the only one to reject these books as many before him did also.
  1. ML ALSO said that several NT books were invalid. (Such as James, Some of the letters of John and Revelation) If he was wrong about the NT books, why was he right about the OT books.
  2. If someone today called a book an epistle of Straw, would you laugh at them as a loon? Isn’t that what ML did?
I don’t know why Catholics busy themselves w/ Luther as if he is some kind of pope. Anyway, if you take the time to look at Luther’s bible you will find the entire NT as it appears in your bible.
 
“Totality of Christianity” has no (name removed by moderator)ut in what the Catholic Church decides re: the truth.

The Catholic Church never looks to christian communities outside the Mystical Body of Christ for their opinion of doctrine. These christian communities stepped outside of the Church; why should they have an (name removed by moderator)ut into the Truth, since they denied the Truth of Christ’s Church, which he founded?

peace
No one had to accept the apocrypha before Trent, ie. it was not a matter of dogma. Do you agree or disagree w/ this statement?
 
No one had to accept the apocrypha before Trent, ie. it was not a matter of dogma. Do you agree or disagree w/ this statement?
Look, protestants call apocryphal books we Catholics call Deuterocanonical. Unfortunately, Protestants include books in the Apocrypha books which the Church does not accept.

You are a Protestant. So, before answering your question, define for us what you regard as apocrypha. List, please.

peace
 
Out of curiosity, what does it mean that “Carthage and Hippo decided The Canon of Scripture. Period!”?

Also, what do you think of the following statements:
a.) Trent was the first council to dogmatically define the canon for the church. (True/False)
True – on a technicality. The earlier councils were not ecumenical councils. However, the “Dogmatic definition” at Trent did not CHANGE the existing canon. To say that Trent was where the canon was defined is misleading. The Church often does not state something, complete with anathemas, until there is a need.
b.) Up until Trent, believers had freedom in discerning what the OT canon consisted of. (True/False)
False.
 
Look, protestants call apocryphal books we Catholics call Deuterocanonical. Unfortunately, Protestants include books in the Apocrypha books which the Church does not accept.

You are a Protestant. So, before answering your question, define for us what you regard as apocrypha. List, please.

peace
The books you (RCC) list as deuterocanonical…Tobit, Judith, 1Macc., 2Macc., Wisdom, Sirach, & Baruch.
 
Mercygate,

You answered false to my question of “Up until Trent, believers had freedom in discerning what the OT canon consisted of. (True/False)”

If you are correct, when does a belief become binding upon the conscience of Catholics?
 
Out of curiosity, what does it mean that “Carthage and Hippo decided The Canon of Scripture. Period!”?
What it says.
The Councils at Hippo and Carthage decided the books of Scriptures. They set forth The Canon of Scriptures, found in Catholic Bibles.
Also, what do you think of the following statements:
a.) Trent was the first council to dogmatically define the canon for the church. (True/False))
Ambiguity and miss-mashing words will not serve you well.

The Council of Tent was a dogmatic Council, but ‘they’ DID NOT define The Canon of Scriptures.

By the time of Trent, there was just as much ‘ado’ about Scriptures as there was during Hippo & Carthage. So Trent dogmatically pronounced The Canon that Hippo & Carthage set forth, as definitive for The Christian
b.) Up until Trent, believers had freedom in discerning what the OT canon consisted of. (True/False)
False !

:cool:

(Nod to mercygate)
 
Mercygate,

You answered false to my question of “Up until Trent, believers had freedom in discerning what the OT canon consisted of. (True/False)”

If you are correct, when does a belief become binding upon the conscience of Catholics?
When it becomes part of the Ordinary Magisterium.
 
Ambiguity and miss-mashing words will not serve you well.

The Council of Tent was a dogmatic Council, but ‘they’ DID NOT define The Canon of Scriptures.
What was ambiguous in my post and what was miss-mashing?
You too answered false to my question of whether or not a believer had freedom in accepting the OT canon.

I have a few questions for you.

a.) At what point is a belief/teaching binding upon the conscious of Catholics?

b.) If Catholics had no freedom than what do you make of the following facts:

1.) The Glossa Ordinaire which was the major study bible of the time rejected the apocrypha in regards to inspiration.

2.) Pope Gregory the Great is a doctor of the Church and was bishop of Rome from A.D. 590-604. In his commentary on the book of Job he stated that the book of 1 Maccabees was not canonical. It’s possible he wrote this book before he was pope but you stil have to wonder why he would reject something that was binding upon his conscience.

3.) In the early sixteenth century, just prior to the Reformation, Cardinal Ximenes, the Archbishop of Toledo, in collaboration with the leading theologians of his day, produced an edition of the Bible called the Biblia Complutensia. There is an admonition in the Preface regarding the Apocrypha, that the books of Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, the Maccabees, the additions to Esther and Daniel, are not canonical Scripture and were therefore not used by the Church for confirming the authority of any fundamental points of doctrine. This Bible, as well as its Preface, was published by the authority and consent of Pope Leo X, to whom the whole work was dedicated.

4.) Cardinal Cajetan, Luther’s opponent at Augsburg in 1518, gave an unhesitating approval to the Hebrew canon in his Commentary on All the Authentic Historical Books of the Old Testament, which he dedicated in 1532 to pope Clement VII. He expressly called attention to Jerome’s separation of the canonical from the uncanonical books, and maintained that the latter must not be relied upon to establish points of faith, but used only for the edification of the faithful.
 
When it becomes part of the Ordinary Magisterium.
I am assuming it is your belief that the canon was became part of the ordinary magesterium at the Councils of Carthage and Rome, am I right?

How do you know when something becomes part of the oridinary magesterium?
 
If you are correct, when does a belief become binding upon the conscience of Catholics?
A person must always obey the dictates of his conscience. This supersedes the Infallibility of the Pope or the Church.

So, as soon as a person apprehends in his conscience what is good, he must follow his consicience.

Surprise? You shouldn’t be

peace
 
A person must always obey the dictates of his conscience. This supersedes the Infallibility of the Pope or the Church.

So, as soon as a person apprehends in his conscience what is good, he must follow his consicience.

Surprise? You shouldn’t be
peace
Are you saying, for example, that if your conscience says you can use birth control you should use birth control? This isn’t what you mean is it?

If it isn’t, I’m not sure what you mean by “This supersedes the Infallibility of the Pope or the Church.”
 
Are you saying, for example, that if your conscience says you can use birth control you should use birth control? This isn’t what you mean is it?

If it isn’t, I’m not sure what you mean by “This supersedes the Infallibility of the Pope or the Church.”
On moral issues you have to be careful. You hope that this person’s moral conscience was properly infomed.

When it comes down to it, if he justly and honestly and prudently believes that birth control is not sinful, he can follow his conscience, and use birth control.

Take the case of capital punishment. The church is against this act of punishment. However, if you are the executioner, and you formed your conscience properly, and you believe capital punishment is good, then you can pull the switch.

peace
 
Can you give a few examples of the many times Jesus quoted from the Apocrypha?
Matt. 16:18 - Jesus’ reference to the “power of death” and “gates of Hades” references Wisdom 16:13.

Matt. 24:15 - the “desolating sacrilege” Jesus refers to is also taken from 1 Macc. 1:54 and 2 Macc. 8:17.

Matt. 24:16 - let those “flee to the mountains” is taken from 1 Macc. 2:28.
 
Matt. 16:18 - Jesus’ reference to the “power of death” and “gates of Hades” references Wisdom 16:13.

Matt. 24:15 - the “desolating sacrilege” Jesus refers to is also taken from 1 Macc. 1:54 and 2 Macc. 8:17.

Matt. 24:16 - let those “flee to the mountains” is taken from 1 Macc. 2:28.
I know you were responding to Ginger, but do the above quotes mean anything in the debate as to whether or not the books are canonical? If so, what does it mean?
 
I know you were responding to Ginger, but do the above quotes mean anything in the debate as to whether or not the books are canonical? If so, what does it mean?
No. this came from an earlier discussion where I was refuting her criteria for inspired books.
 
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