Canon of Scripture

  • Thread starter Thread starter Ginger2
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Part 1 of 5

I am going to answer your questions in bits and pieces.
40.png
philthy:
Its probably a mistake to:
A) think that the Jews had no authority structure in place - at the very least they had a priesthood and Moses’ seat. There were authority structures in place (with bonafides approved by Christ).
I am certainly glad I didn’t make that mistake.

I specifically said, and I quote “During the old testament times, the Jews had a canon of Scripture and they had their canon of scripture despite not having an infallible authority.”

I agree they had an authority but I don’t believe the Jews had an infallible authority. By your statements above I’m not sure if you believe the Jews to have had an infallible authority or not. What is your opinion on that?
40.png
philthy:
B) ignore that the Jews were a single nation, unlike Christians.
40.png
philthy:
C) ignore that the Holy Spirit had not yet come during OT times while Jesus promised the HS to the Apostles specifically to “lead them to all truth”.
I’m not sure how the above plays into the discussion, can you explain? More specifically what do you mean the Jews were a “single nation”? They had been divided several times during their history…northern tribes vs. southern tribes, lost tribes, etc.
40.png
philthy:
Paul says Timothy can be certain because of who he learned them from, not that the Scriptures were somehow “self authenticating”
Okay, even if they aren’t self authenticating, who was it Timothy learned them from and were they infallible?

Did I say anything about the scriptures being self authenticating in the previous post?
 
Part 2 of 5
40.png
philthy:
The historical FACT that they held a council in 90 AD (Jamnia?) for the expressed purpose of determining the canon with established criteria for doing so would seem to strongly argue against your conclusion, no?
But that’s not what Jamnia did.
Roger Beckwith OT Canon in the NT Church:
It has often been argued that because the Council of Jamnia debated the canonical status of several Old Testament books, the rabbis involved had the authority to make a final decision on the extent of the canon. Historically, there were a number of books in the Hebrew canon which were a source of debate within Judaism as to their inspiration. Traditionally, these were Ezekiel, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, the Song of Songs and Esther. But just because there was debate, it does not follow that there was ever serious doubt among the majority of their canonical status or that the canon was open. This is certainly the case with Jamnia. The fact is, the discussion of the books was not over whether certain books, previously deemed uncanonical, should be raised to canonical status, but whether those traditionally held as canonical, should remain so. There was never discussion of accepting any of the Apocryphal books into the canon. Roger Beckwith makes this clear:
The theory that an open canon was closed at the Synod of Jamnia about AD 90 goes back to Heinrich Graetz in 1871, who proposed (rather more cautiously than has since been the custom) that the Synod of Jamnia led to the closing of the canon. Though others have lately expressed hesitations about the theory, its complete refutation has been the work of J.P. Lewis and S.Z. Leiman. The combined results of their investigations is as follows:
(a) The term ‘synod’ or ‘council’ is inappropriate. The academy at Jamnia, established by Rabbi Johanan ben Zakkai shortly before the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70, was both a college and a legislative body, and the occasion in question was a session of the elders there.
(b) The date of the session may have been as early as AD 75 or as late as AD 117.
(c) As regards the disputed books, the discussion was confined to the question whether Eccelsiastes and the Song of Songs (or possibly Eccelsiastes alone) make the hands unclean, i.e. are divinely inspired.
(d) The decision reached was not regarded as authoritative, since contrary opinions continued to be expressed throughout the second century.
FF Bruce writes
FF Bruce:
So far as the scriptures are concerned, the rabbis at Jamnia introduced no innovations; they reviewed the tradition they had received and left it more or less as it was. It is probably unwise to talk as if there was a Council or Synod of Jamnia which laid down the limits of the Old Testament canon.
Apparently these two learned men disagree with your assesment that Jamnia closed the OT canon for the Jews.
 
(Part 3 of 5)
40.png
philthy:
Correct. You could also receive personal revelation. Apart from that I dont see how you could determine it.
I don’t deny the role of the church, I just don’t believe the church is infallible.

We might want to discuss the issue of how the Jews ascertained what the scriptures were and weren’t and I believe this to be pertinent to our discussion because I am unaware that the Jews had any special revelation or personal revelation regarding the OT canon.
40.png
philthy:
Well, just as a reality check, how did you determine the veracity of the canon revealed to you?
How did I determine the veracity of the canon revealed to me? I accept by faith that God steered the early church in giving us the canon I just don’t accept that the church is infallible.
 
Part 4 of 5
40.png
philthy:
Of course not, but that goes against the very claim of RC Sproul,so you DONT agree with him.
Don’t you think I would be more familiar with Sproul than you are? Don’t you think I would have enough sense to know when I agree with Sproul and when I don’t?

Since you had the temerity to correct me I thought I would provide the following from Sproul himself….
Ligonier.org:
QUESTION: We talk of the Bible as being the inspired Word of God. Would the men who chose the books to be included in the Bible also have been inspired by God?

ANSWER: This is one important point of dispute between historic Roman Catholic theology and classical Protestant theology. The Roman Catholic Church has gone on record, particularly at the Council of Trent in the sixteenth century, to declare that not only were the individual authors inspired in the writing of the individual books but that the church operated and functioned infallibly in the sifting and sorting process by which the canon of the New Testament, for example, was established.

To put it briefly, Rome believes that the New Testament is an infallible collection of infallible books. That’s one perspective. Modern critical scholarship, which rejects the infallibility of the individual volumes of Scripture and likewise the whole of Scripture, would say that the canon of Scripture is a fallible collection of fallible books.

The historic Protestant position shared by Lutherans, Methodists, Episcopalians, Presbyterians, and so on, has been that the canon of Scripture is a fallible collection of infallible books. This is the reasoning: At the time of the Reformation, one of the most important issues in the sixteenth century was the issue of authority. We’ve seen the central issue of justification by faith alone, which was captured by the slogan the Reformers used: sola fide, “by faith alone [we are justified].” Also there was the issue of authority, and the principle that emerged among Protestants was that of sola scriptura, which means that Scripture alone has the authority to bind our conscience. Scripture alone is infallible because God is infallible. The church receives the Scripture as God’s Word, and the church is not infallible. That is the view of all Protestant churches.

The church has a rich tradition, and we respect the church fathers and even our creed. However, we grant the possibility that they may err at various points; we don’t believe in the infallibility of the church. I will say that there are some Protestants who believe that there was a special work of divine providence and a special work of the Holy Spirit that protected the Canon and the sorting process from mistakes. I don’t hold that position myself. **I think it’s possible that wrong books could have been selected, but I don’t believe for a minute that that’s the case. **I think that the task the church faced and did was remarkably well done and that we have every book that should be in the New Testament.

Now, I said “As Dr. R.C. Sproul says, I believe we have a fallible list of infallible books. That said, I don’t believe there is an error in the canon nor do I see a need for an infallible church/authority to give us the canon.” and we see that Sproul says that “Scripture is a fallible collection of infallible books” and that Sproul believes “I think it’s possible that wrong books could have been selected, but I don’t believe for a minute that that’s the case.”

Where is it I disagree with Sproul? Do I have a typo somewhere?
 
Five of Five
40.png
philthy:
You have yet to reveal WHY you dont believe there is an error in your canon - other than personal opinion.
It is as clear as day in the bottom portion of my post. You even commented on this in one of your questions, I don’t see how you could have missed it.

I clearly said “Quite simply it is God’s sovereign power that reveals the canon to His church. My certainty in the canon is not based on whatever the early church did but my faith in the providence of God to make His scriptures known to us today.”

I don’t think that is ambiguous at all, my certainty in the canon is based on my faith in the providence of God to make his scriptures known to us today. I am sorry I can’t give you some type of mathematical equation for your review but it is simply by faith that I accept the canon.

In the end, is your position all that different? If I were Catholic I would base my belief in the correctness of the canon on my faith in the Church to be true to it’s claims. Either way, it is an exercise of faith is it not?
 
Part 6 of 5 (I forgot a few of your questions)
40.png
philthy:
Again, it sounds good, but you are ignoring 1500 years of “today” for Christianity. When did “the early church” transition to the “today” of your statement?
I don’t have the time or interest to get into this. Sorry.
40.png
philthy:
I would articulate that a little differently. No infallible interpreter is needed to act in good faith in believing that they are reading
I pretty much agree w/ the above statement since I do not believe I have infallible certainty of the canon.
 
Five of Five

It is as clear as day in the bottom portion of my post. You even commented on this in one of your questions, I don’t see how you could have missed it.

I clearly said “Quite simply it is God’s sovereign power that reveals the canon to His church. My certainty in the canon is not based on whatever the early church did but my faith in the providence of God to make His scriptures known to us today.”

I don’t think that is ambiguous at all, my certainty in the canon is based on my faith in the providence of God to make his scriptures known to us today. I am sorry I can’t give you some type of mathematical equation for your review but it is simply by faith that I accept the canon.

In the end, is your position all that different? If I were Catholic I would base my belief in the correctness of the canon on my faith in the Church to be true to it’s claims. Either way, it is an exercise of faith is it not?
Faith is a wondrous thing. Your faith in the Providence of God brings about this Canon, as true and accurate. But Providence did not give you the Canon.

Our faith is in the words of Jesus Christ that he was founding a Church to which he would send the Holy Spirit to guide and protect from error til the end of time. That infallible Church gave us the Canon.

What you are believing is the Canon given us by the infallible Church of Jesus Christ, not by your faith in Providence, which brought you nothing.

peace
 
Pwrlftr wrote: " I specifically said, and I quote “During the old testament times, the Jews had a canon of Scripture and they had their canon of scripture despite not having an infallible authority.”

They were fractioned just like protestantism is fractured in their beliefs. There were several Jewish sects, and they couldn’t even agree with each other on major beliefs. Don’t think that Judaism functioned together without authority. They had a Temple and a priesthood, and that kept them cohesively, for the most part.
 
Apparently these two learned men disagree with your assesment that Jamnia closed the OT canon for the Jews.
I certainly dont reach that conclusion from what you presented. In particular, review items C and D from Beckwith. Why was there a discussion regarding the canonicity of Ecclisiastes?
And with respect to FF Bruce, he specifically says,“they reviewed the tradition they had received and left it more or less as it was.” What does that mean exactly? Why were they reviewing ANYTHING regarding the canon if it was set. And with regards to " It is probably unwise to talk as if there was a Council or Synod of Jamnia which laid down the limits of the Old Testament canon." That statement should not be confused with the issue of whether they established it or simply affirmed what they had already considered the canon to be. The fact is, they met to discuss it because some were questioning it. All the rest is conjecture.
 
Hello again! Thank you for your long and thoughtful answers - I really do appreciate them. We disagree on some of this topic, of course, but that is not as significant as what we agree on in Christ. Please dont be offended by my tenacity in trying to understand you.
It is as clear as day in the bottom portion of my post.
I am a slow, detail oriented learner, please bare with me.
You even commented on this in one of your questions, I don’t see how you could have missed it.
I clearly said “Quite simply it is God’s sovereign power that reveals the canon to His church. My certainty in the canon is not based on whatever the early church did but my faith in the providence of God to make His scriptures known to us today.”
OK, there are a couple of ambiguities with this answer. I dont know what you mean when you use the term “church” in the sense that I dont know if you are referring to yourself or some other collective entity that subsequently communicates what God has revealed to them. If it is the former, aka private revelation, then the discussion is over! If it is the latter, then I would like to understand exactly how the “church” revealed the canon to you.
I asked you this much in my last post, but you skipped it. We cant really understand each other without answering some simple questions. Here it is again:
philthy's last post to pwrlftr:
Could you please tell me what you mean by “the church” in this statement? How and when, exactly, did “the church” REVEAL what it had “received” ? It seems very important to us effectively communicating.
The Holy Spirit had worked among the early church in providing them with the books of the New Testament and the church was likewise used to spread the canon.
We need details here. How and when did “the church” do this exactly?
I don’t think that is ambiguous at all, my certainty in the canon is based on my faith in the providence of God to make his scriptures known to us today. I am sorry I can’t give you some type of mathematical equation for your review but it is simply by faith that I accept the canon.
OK, deep breath. You and I are having this discussion because we each believe in a different canon, correct? You keep referring to your canon as “the” canon. The problem is I dont know how your canon was revealed to you from the “church” as “the” canon. This is completely separate from trusting God’s Sovereignty to reveal the canon to the church (unless, again, you consider yourself “the church” in this respect).
So I will tempt your patience again by asking, how, exactly, and when, exactly, did the church reveal “the” canon to you?
In the end, is your position all that different? If I were Catholic I would base my belief in the correctness of the canon on my faith in the Church to be true to it’s claims. Either way, it is an exercise of faith is it not?
Definitely faith is involved, and you are correct there. But there is more than faith to the Catholic position IMHO. There is history, reason, and pragmatics as well. We can discuss that more, but I’d prefer to finish our “definition of terms” above first!
 
Part 4 of 5
Don’t you think I would be more familiar with Sproul than you are?
Definitely!
Don’t you think I would have enough sense to know when I agree with Sproul and when I don’t?
Probably!
Since you had the temerity to correct me I thought I would provide the following from Sproul himself….
Now, I said “As Dr. R.C. Sproul says, I believe we have a fallible list of infallible books. That said, I don’t believe there is an error in the canon nor do I see a need for an infallible church/authority to give us the canon.” and we see that Sproul says that “Scripture is a fallible collection of infallible books” and that Sproul believes “I think it’s possible that wrong books could have been selected, but I don’t believe for a minute that that’s the case.”

Where is it I disagree with Sproul? Do I have a typo somewhere?
Ah, I see now. You trust in God’s Sovereignty to lead the early church - fallibly - to revealing the canon of Scripture - fallibly - but you and he, for some unknown reason, believe that what they came up with is actually perfect! You are correct and I was wrong - you and Sproul appear to agree: I simply disagree with both of you.
I did not appreciate that Sproul, in his “fallible collection of infallible books” statement meant to say that we have an inerrant, fallibly collected canon of inerrant Scripture. To me, it sounds like he really wants an infallible collection of inerrant Scripture but to do so would require granting infallibility to the Church, and thats a line many simply cannot cross. Just my opinion…I was still wrong on your disagreeing with him.
 
Ah, I see now. You trust in God’s Sovereignty to lead the early church - fallibly - to revealing the canon of Scripture - fallibly - but you and he, for some unknown reason, believe that what they came up with is actually perfect! You are correct and I was wrong - you and Sproul appear to agree: I simply disagree with both of you.
I did not appreciate that Sproul, in his “fallible collection of infallible books” statement meant to say that we have an inerrant, fallibly collected canon of inerrant Scripture. To me, it sounds like he really wants an infallible collection of inerrant Scripture but to do so would require granting infallibility to the Church, and thats a line many simply cannot cross. Just my opinion…I was still wrong on your disagreeing with him.
No problem, I shouldn’t judge tone over an internet post but for some reason this just rubbed me the wrong way.

Regardless, you say “To me, it sounds like he really wants an infallible collection of inerrant Scripture but to do so would require granting infallibility to the Church, and thats a line many simply cannot cross.” and I agree w/ you on this and think he has said as much.
 
Yes it is, 2 Peter 1:15-21; 2 Tim 3:16.
I would hope that people would not put an answer out there without any connection to what has been asked. If you want to make this a two person conversation, you could PM each other.

thanks

peace
 
well, I’m jumping back in here kind of late, but

I believe the Bible is self-authenticating in many ways. I’ve already listed the historical and geological accuracies that testify to it truthfulness.

But Scripture itself testifies from one book to another. Many authors of many books all affirming the truth of the others.

2 Peter 3:15-16 refers to Paul’‘s writings as Scripture.
Since Peter considered Paul’‘s writings as Scripture, I should think Peter’'s writings were also considered Scripture - (You are Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church)

The Gospel of Matthew, was written between 42 -50 AD, so Christians knew of this book and since Matthew was one of the twelve, they would accept it as Scripture.

So, many of these books were written and accepted as Scripture in the first century while the Apostles were still alive.

The authors testify to their own and each other’s authenticity.
 
Just thought I would pop in and reccomend the following little book, brilliantly written, whether you agree with the conclusions or not: “How the Bible Became a Book.”
 
Philthy,

I haven’t forgotten about you or lost interest but witht he upcoming holidays I probably won’t post much of anything, if anything, until this weekend.
 
well, I’m jumping back in here kind of late, but

I believe the Bible is self-authenticating in many ways. I’ve already listed the historical and geological accuracies that testify to it truthfulness.

But Scripture itself testifies from one book to another. Many authors of many books all affirming the truth of the others.

2 Peter 3:15-16 refers to Paul’‘s writings as Scripture.
Since Peter considered Paul’‘s writings as Scripture, I should think Peter’'s writings were also considered Scripture - (You are Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church)

The Gospel of Matthew, was written between 42 -50 AD, so Christians knew of this book and since Matthew was one of the twelve, they would accept it as Scripture.

So, many of these books were written and accepted as Scripture in the first century while the Apostles were still alive.

The authors testify to their own and each other’s authenticity.
Can’t keep a good theory down.

peace
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top