Canon of the Bible

[Esdra]

Hi friends,

in the non-Catholic Forum a dispute arose on the Canon of the Eastern Catholic Churches:

Did you know that the Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches have a different deuterocanon?

No, I thought the Eastern Catholic Churches had the same canon as the West. Which have a different canon?

I am pretty sure that I read somwhere here in CAF that the Eastern Catholic Churches have the Eastern Orthodox canons.

The canon of Scripture was proclaimed a dogma by the Council of Trent. It is therefore binding on the entire Catholic Church, both East and West. There are some Eastern Catholic Churches within the Catholic communion that use books from outside the canon in their liturgy because the Orthodox Churches out of which they were formed use them. This does not constitute those books as Scripture, but some people seem to think it does.

Can anyone help me?

in Christ,

 

[Alveus_Lacuna]

Well, it’s probably just different ways of understanding the same thing. For one, this is scripture, and for another, that is scripture.

By the way, there are differences in Old Testament canons even within Eastern Orthodoxy. Russians, for example, I believe include 4 Maccabees where the Greeks and Arabs do not. But I could be wrong.

 

[Esdra]

Well, it’s probably just different ways of understanding the same thing. For one, this is scripture, and for another, that is scripture.

By the way, there are differences in Old Testament canons even within Eastern Orthodoxy. Russians, for example, I believe include 4 Maccabees where the Greeks and Arabs do not. But I could be wrong.

Well, the question was if the Orthodox Churches in Communion with Rome use the Orthodox Canon of the OT or the Catholic, as Jim Dandy stated that the Canon of the CC was fixed at the council of Trent by Dogma.

The Russian Orthodox Church don’t include 4 Maccabees! I know for sure, as I own a Russian Orthodox Bible!
The Greek Orthodox Church, however, does include 4 Macc.

 

[ciero]

Well, the question was if the Orthodox Churches in Communion with Rome use the Orthodox Canon of the OT or the Catholic, as Jim Dandy stated that the Canon of the CC was fixed at the council of Trent by Dogma.

The Russian Orthodox Church don’t include 4 Maccabees! I know for sure, as I own a Russian Orthodox Bible!
The Greek Orthodox Church, however, does include 4 Macc.

We Eastern Catholics like to distance ourselves from Trent. Nasty nasty council!

 

[ciero]

Well, the question was if the Orthodox Churches in Communion with Rome use the Orthodox Canon of the OT or the Catholic, as Jim Dandy stated that the Canon of the CC was fixed at the council of Trent by Dogma.

The Russian Orthodox Church don’t include 4 Maccabees! I know for sure, as I own a Russian Orthodox Bible!
The Greek Orthodox Church, however, does include 4 Macc.

We Eastern Catholics like to distance ourselves from Trent! Nasty nasty council, that really had nothing to do with us.

 

[Esdra]

We Eastern Catholics like to distance ourselves from Trent! Nasty nasty council, that really had nothing to do with us.

This means?
You are using a OT with more books than the Roman Catholic Church does?

 

[ciero]

This means?
You are using a OT with more books than the Roman Catholic Church does?

Yes it does.

Just because we CHOOSE to be in communion with Rome does NOT mean that ROME dictates our traditions to us.

 

[Esdra]

Yes it does.

Just because we CHOOSE to be in communion with Rome does NOT mean that ROME dictates our traditions to us.

Nice!
So I was right. I guess Jim Dandy will come along later.

 

[dcointin]

We Eastern Catholics like to distance ourselves from Trent! Nasty nasty council, that really had nothing to do with us.

Do you not view Trent as an ecumenical council with binding dogmatic authority?

 

[Jim_Dandy]

We Eastern Catholics like to distance ourselves from Trent! Nasty nasty council, that really had nothing to do with us.

“We Eastern Catholics…”? You speak for all Eastern Catholics? I don’t think so. Your opinion is noted.

Please post, from an official document of any Eastern Catholic Church, their rejection of Trent or acceptance of some biblical canon other than the one specified at Trent.

Thank you.

Jim Dandy

 

[Nine_Two]

There were Eastern Catholics present at Trent, so I’m not sure how you can distance yourself from it.

 

[smad0142]

Um, if you want to be in “communion with Rome” then you have to believe what Rome believes. Trent is an Ecumenical Council, and it trumps the small “t” traditions of the Eastern Churches. I love my UGCC parish and Eastern traditions, but Dogma and Doctrine applies to all Catholics. Picking and choosing results in cafeteria Catholicism, and that club is full of the “catholic” all-stars like Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden.

If you find other works, such as 4 Macc, uplifting then that is wonderful and fine, but Catholics, East and West, accept the Canon from the Council of Trent.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Um, if you want to be in “communion with Rome” then you have to believe what Rome believes.

Not necessarily so. Eastern Catholics do not have to accept Rome’s small “t” traditions. Being in communion doesn’t mean being exactly alike. It means beeing in agreement with everything, not being exactly the same.

Trent is an Ecumenical Council, and it trumps the small “t” traditions of the Eastern Churches. I love my UGCC parish and Eastern traditions, but Dogma and Doctrine applies to all Catholics. Picking and choosing results in cafeteria Catholicism, and that club is full of the “catholic” all-stars like Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden.

This is contrary to what the Popes have been saying recently that Eastern Catholics should go back to their Eastern Traditions and keep it. It includes those small “t” traditions which may not be in agreement with Rome’s small “t” traditions.

If you find other works, such as 4 Macc, uplifting then that is wonderful and fine, but Catholics, East and West, accept the Canon from the Council of Trent.

 

[Esdra]

Not necessarily so. Eastern Catholics do not have to accept Rome’s small “t” traditions. Being in communion doesn’t mean being exactly alike. It means beeing in agreement with everything, not being exactly the same.

This is contrary to what the Popes have been saying recently that Eastern Catholics should go back to their Eastern Traditions and keep it. It includes those small “t” traditions which may not be in agreement with Rome’s small “t” traditions.

That’s intersting here.
There seem to be various opinions concerning the Canon!

I’d also be intersted in an official Eastern Catholic Church document that states that the Catholic Canon is not accepted but the Orthodox.

 

[UnityofTrinity]

I would be interested to see where in all 7 ecumenical councils that announces that there would be no other councils that that which was formed. Also according to the Council of Carthage, the Biblical Canon was defined to contain all 73 books:

Item placuit ut praeter Scripturas canonicas nihil in ecclesia legatur sub nomine divinarum Scripturarum. Sunt autem Canonicae Scripturae hae: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numeri, Deuteronomium, Jesus Naue, Judicum, Ruth, Regnorum libri quator, Paralipomenon libri duo, Job, Psalterium Davidicum, Salomonis libri quinque, libri duodecim prophetarum, Jesaias, Jeremias, Ezechiel, Daniel, Tobias, Judith, Esther, Esdrae libri duo, Machabaeorum libri duo. Novi autem Testamenti, evangeliorum libri quator, Actuum Apostolorum liber unus, Epistolae Pauli Apostoli xiii., ejusdem ad Hebraeos una, Petri apostoli duae, Johannes tres, Jacobi i., Judae i., Apocalipsis Johannis liber unus. Hoc etiam fratri et consacerdoti nostro Bonifatio, vel aliis earum partium Episcopis, pro confirmando isto canone innotescat, quia a patribus ista accepimus in ecclesia legenda. Liceat autem legi passiones martyrum cum anniversarii eorum dies celebrantur.

(It was also determined that besides the Canonical Scriptures nothing be read in the Church under the title of divine Scriptures. The Canonical Scriptures are these: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua the son of Nun, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, 3 two books of Paraleipomena, 4 Job, the Psalter, five books of Solomon, 5 the books of the twelve prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezechiel, Daniel, Tobit, Judith, Esther, two books of Esdras, 6 two books of the Maccabees. Of the New Testament: four books of the Gospels, one book of the Acts of the Apostles, thirteen Epistles of the Apostle Paul, one epistle of the same [writer] to the Hebrews, two Epistles of the Apostle Peter, three of John, one of James, one of Jude, one book of the Apocalypse of John. Let this be made known also to our brother and fellow-priest Boniface, or to other bishops of those parts, for the purpose of confirming that Canon. because we have received from our fathers that those books must be read in the Church. Let it also be allowed that the Passions of Martyrs be read when their festivals are kept. )

B.F. Westcott, A General Survey of the History of the Canon of the New Testament (5th ed. Edinburgh, 1881), pp. 440, 541-2.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Curious though since there are really no Old Testament readings during Divine Liturgy, whats the point if the Bible of the Eastern Christians contain more OT books?

 

[Aramis]

Well, it’s probably just different ways of understanding the same thing. For one, this is scripture, and for another, that is scripture.

By the way, there are differences in Old Testament canons even within Eastern Orthodoxy. Russians, for example, I believe include 4 Maccabees where the Greeks and Arabs do not. But I could be wrong.

My Russian Catholic bible has 4 Maccabees, in the appendix, as does my Russian Orthodox bible.

Both have the same canon of books.

But it should also be noted that the additional books over the roman canon are not used in the Divine Liturgy readings.

 

[ConstantineTG]

My Russian Catholic bible has 4 Maccabees, in the appendix, as does my Russian Orthodox bible.

Both have the same canon of books.

But it should also be noted that the additional books over the roman canon are not used in the Divine Liturgy readings.

Would the Orthodox use them? The readings are always the Epistles, right?

 

[Gregory_I]

OK, read the language of Trent: It does not CLOSE the biblical canon, it simply says that all those listed are definitely canonical.

THere is no clause or phrase that implies: “and no others.”

 

[Aramis]

OK, read the language of Trent: It does not CLOSE the biblical canon, it simply says that all those listed are definitely canonical.

THere is no clause or phrase that implies: “and no others.”

The councils did specifically reject some, tho. (And many of those specifically rejected are now showing up again… )