Canon

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henrikhank

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In the traditional Roman Mass the canon is said by the Priest in a silent voice but in the Novus Ordo the the canon in a said by the Piest(s) in a loud voice. Why is the silence not there in the Novus Ordo?
When attending the Novus Ordo don’t you think it’s strange to have the Canon said loud instead of in a silent voice? I mean, you don’t attend an Oriental Mass when attending Novus Ordo.
 
Not at all strange – in fact, it is quite beautiful to me. Scripture teaches that “faith comes by hearing,” and when the solemn words of the canon are prayed in our hearing, it enables me to participate fully. This was the foremost aim of the V-II Council. 😉
 
I can’t tell you why the Eucharistic prayer in the Norvus Ordo is said aloud, or why they have around 8 options rather than just the Canon that we used for 1500 years. I can tell you however, that hearing the priest at Mass does not = full participation. It is quite beautiful to me to witness the silent solemness and reverence in the TLM, and just because I can’t hear him it doesn’t mean I’m not able to “fully participate”. To each his own though.
 
I for one see merits in both ways. There is something beautiful about the silence of an EF mass, I get something out of it that I don’t when I go to the OF. Oh the other hand there are parts of the OF that I love.

I do however wish that my parish priest would use the Eucharistic Prayer I (The Roman Canon) every Sunday. He only uses it on rare occasions, perhaps every few months when not a feast.
 
I’m betting the great thinkers in the church thought the public should be aware of the beautiful verse contained therein.

In English the Latin mass read like an adoring Shakespeare imo … that is if you followed it in English. But I’m thinking a lot of the faithful just drifted off, read last months scripture or followed the mass in Latin not understanding what was going on.
 
Personally, the Novus Ordo allows the congregation to be even more passive. I’ve regularly go to both Masses and the Novus Ordo allows my mind to wander more often than the Tridentine Mass. When everything is prayed out loud, the words can just wash over you and enter one ear and go out the other - even if you’re trying very hard to pay attention. The silence of the Tridentine Mass forces the congregation to struggle in order to get something out of it - a struggle that is more fruitful, in my opinion, because you actually have to cultivate inner prayer and meditation.

It’s so easy to sing along to an entrance hymn that you’ve heard hundreds of times while your mind is thinking about laundry. It requires much more prayerful focus and imagination to hear a Latin introit, translate it in your head and meditate on its meaning and relevance to the theme of the day.

In the Tridentine Mass, there are no intercessory litanies so anyone wishing to heap their worries and concerns and petitions on the heavenly altar are forced to personally call out to God during the Kyrie, which was originally an intercessory Litany of which only the congregational responses now remain. Just like you simultaneously pray the Hail Mary and meditate on the Mystery at hand during a Rosary, we are forced to sing along with the Kyrie while our minds and hearts are lifted up in personal petition to our Lord. In the Novus Ordo Mass, the Kyrie becomes a three-liner that most Catholics of my generation hardly take notice of. There is no deep aching of the heart calling out to the Lord to shower mercy upon us while we think about our sick loved ones, our dead relatives, our unemployment, our wayward child, our abusive parents, our addictions, our constant sins, our inadequacy, our brokenness, etc.

Most of these points can be applied to pretty much the rest of the Mass, with the Introit representing all the propers and the Kyrie representing the rest of the ordinary. The Latin of the propers forces us to prepare for Mass beforehand by going through the readings, translating them or reading the translations. It forces us to struggle with it beforehand and during the Mass while it is being chanted. The Latin of the ordinary is very simple, easily memorised and we can chant it along with the choir while we ourselves offer up our own personal prayers. Who wants to be singing along to a Gloria sung like a cheesy Sesame Street song? Wouldn’t you be rather reflecting on all the blessings that God has bestowed upon you? Wouldn’t you rather be bowing at all the appropriate moments while thanking God for your children, your family, your loved ones, your job, your education, the country you were born in, the food you have on your table, the miracles he’s worked in your life, the joys that you experience? Same with the Creed! Do you want to say it really quickly so that the words rush by you or do you want to hear it chanted and sing along? These are the words that the 318 Fathers of the Nicene Council hammered out in order to destroy the heresies of their time! When it’s sung, it’s slower - giving you time to meditate on the deep theology behind the words, giving you time to pray to God to destroy idolatry and heresy in the world, to destroy idolatry in your heart. In the Novus Ordo, it’s said so fast that you can hardly pray to God to free you from the idolatry of power, money, sex, prestige, fame, alcohol, drug-abuse, excessive entertainment, the ego, etc.

In addition, there are so many beautiful prayers in our Catholic tradition and even in other traditions that we can print out on the back of Holy Cards and pray silently during the quiet parts of the Mass. During the offertory and the Canon, you don’t have to be praying and hearing all the exact words of the priest - he’s the priest, not you. (Although you can memorise the prayers from a missal if you want to.) If you know where in the Mass we generally are and the nature of prayer that’s being offered (praise, petition, penance, etc.) and what’s being prayed for (the Church, the faithful departed, the intercession of the Saints, the purity of the ministers, etc.) you can pray your own favourite prayers of similar genre and subject matter - prayers that actually move you and you can offer it up in union with the prayers of the priest.

For example, there are stunning prayers from the Orthodox churches and Eastern traditions that I absolutely love. During the general moment when I’m assuming that the priest is praying for the Church and ecclesiastical authorities and all those who “foster the orthodox, Catholic and apostolic faith,” I pray this prayer taken from the Coptic liturgy and which I’ve printed out and glued onto the back back of a Holy Icon card.

*"The worship of idols, utterly uproot from the world. Satan and all his evil powers, trample and humiliate under our feet speedily. All offenses and their instigators, abolish. May all dissension of corrupt heresies cease. The enemies of Your holy Church, O Lord, as at all times, now also humiliate. Strip their vanity, show them their weakness speedily. Bring to naught their envy, their intrigues, their madness, their wickedness, and their slander which they commit against us; O Lord, bring them all to no avail, disperse their counsel, O God.

Arise, O Lord God, let all Your enemies be scattered, and let all that hate Your Holy Name flee before Your face."*

The Tridentine Mass, in my humble opinion, can offer a much more dynamic and active interior participation. Obviously, one need be familiar with its general structure - the meaning of each section that inexorably and slowly ascends to the moment of Holy Transubstantiation, a basic familiarity with the Latin of the ordinary (the Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, etc.) and the cues and hints at where in the Mass we are and what prayer the priest is on. These come with experience and can be easily remedied with a parish workshop on the Tridentine Mass.
 
I also forgot to mention that the physical externals of the Tridentine “culture” - the increased number of genuflections, signs of the cross, bowing, women in veils, the incense, the candles, etc. - are opportunities for the outer eye and the senses to engage the inner sense of Faith. At the Novus Ordo Mass, the congregation is directed to bow at the Incarnation part of the Creed. But who actually does this? Who actually bows and feels the import and weight and glory of the Incarnation when saying the Creed? At the local parish my parents attend, which I occasionally attend, no one does these actions, the bowing and the crossing, and so in order to avoid looking overtly pious, I do it only in my inner prayer. At a Tridentine Mass, every Catholic would have to be re-catechised into the piety of this particular rite using a Missale. They would read where it is customary to bow, customary to cross one’s self, customary to genuflect. The external postures are meant to aid in prayer, meditation and reverence.

Just my two cents.
 
http://www.katharinedrexel.org/images/chapelbig2.jpg

This is the chapel in the Shrine of St. Katherine Drexel in Philadelphia, PA. Our parish made a pilgrimage a few years ago and I was privileged to visit this chapel. You may be surprised by the arrangement of the choir seats, if you have never visited a monastery, but it gives a silent message of what takes place in many monasteries and convents.

The members pray liturgical prayer (the Divine Office) in rotation, antiphonally - aloud, giving public worship to the Father in union with the Son and Spirit. All liturgical prayer is public prayer, and is not meant to be silent. This may be helpful for some who believe their prayer in community, as we gather for mass, is oriented to silence. Yes, there are times we enter into silence and Adoration, as we often do before the Blessed Sacrament. Historically in the ancient liturgies, prayer in the Temple was worship in common, with all taking part. I believe this is what the Council has envisioned when they desired that we return to communal worship as a community of one mind, one heart, one voice united in prayer.

I pray this will not degenerate into pitting the forms of mass against one another, but sharing the beauty found in each form of the liturgy. May this brief explanation help the OP to understand the reason the Ordinary Form has a different focus and is not meant to be silent, individual worship. 🙂
 
Sirach2 said:
The members pray liturgical prayer (the Divine Office) in rotation, antiphonally - aloud, giving public worship to the Father in union with the Son and Spirit. All liturgical prayer is public prayer, and is not meant to be silent. This may be helpful for some who believe their prayer in community, as we gather for mass, is oriented to silence. Yes, there are times we enter into silence and Adoration, as we often do before the Blessed Sacrament.
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The Divine Office is centered on the chanting of the Psalms so clearly it is more oriented to prayer out loud. Even then, there are moments, such as during Compline, when all enter into silence in order to perform a silent examination of conscience.

Liturgical prayer is public prayer, yes, but public prayer must not necessarily be out loud. Many reconstructions of the Temple liturgies will make mention of a Levitical choir chanting the psalms during certain sacrifices while the Israelite men stood in the inner court in solemn silence and offering personal prayer. This is common throughout all religious traditions, actually and within Christianity, inaudible prayers by the presbyter is found throughout all Churches and traditions of apostolic descent, East and West. That does not mean that Mass is oriented primarily to silence - obviously not! It’s oriented to joyous and solemn song! Yet the sacrifice of our eucharistic liturgy is the greatest miracle of all and really, the only proper response to the descent of the fiery and eternal Word onto our altars is awestruck silence - as you say, there are appropriate moments of silence and where the Tridentine allows for it, I completely agree with it. It is a great Mystery and in order to cultivate this ascent into this dense cloud that covers the new and spiritual Sinai, we are silent. For this same reason, we offer incense.
 
Johanne:
Yet the sacrifice of our eucharistic liturgy is the greatest miracle of all and really, the only proper response to the descent of the fiery and eternal Word onto our altars is awestruck silence - as you say, there are appropriate moments of silence and where the Tridentine allows for it, I completely agree with it.
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Thank you for sharing how liturgy speaks to your spirit. The exception I take, if I may, is to your bolded words. That may be true for the Tridentine, and is most likely your interpretation, but I pray you are not implying that other rites are defective unless they issue the “only proper” response of silence. Truly, the Ordinary Form is the rite of liturgy guided by the Holy Spirit at this time of history, and I am well-pleased with it, as are many who worship in this rite. Can you sense the presence of myriads of angels in the heavenly Jerusalem who give voice to their song of praise with us? “Holy, Holy, Holy Lord!”

Neither form of Holy Mass is incorrect - and it will speak differently to each of us according to our sensibilities, yet be utterly pleasing to God when our hearts are joined to Him in this prayer, whether silent or audible.
 
Why aren’t the choir seats arranged in a way so they can pray Ad orientem?
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I am not familiar with their theology in those days, but I can believe that one reason may be, “When two or three are gathered in my name, there I am in the midst of them.”
 
henrikhank said:
A video of a Pontifical Mass gloria.tv/?media=254115 (Canon begins at 117:00)

Why aren’t the choir seats arranged in a way so they can pray Ad orientem?
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The choir stalls are arranged so that the choir may sing the Divine Office antiphonally. Mass is only a small part of the divine functions that take place in a monastic chapel.
 
MarkThompson said:
The choir stalls are arranged so that the choir may sing the Divine Office antiphonally. Mass is only a small part of the divine functions that take place in a monastic chapel.
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Indeed, and it helps to point out that this isn’t a post-Vatican II innovation. Monasteries have had this arrangement for over a thousand years.
 
Actually, there is a connection between the way that the mass was celebrated by religious and the way that we pray the Divine Office. Most priests who were monks or friars were not allowed to pray the Canon in silence. It was always said aloud so that all of the brethren could participate.

You must remember that religious communities always had the horizontal dimension of the mass. Mos of these communities had few ordained men. To preserve the equality between the lay and the cleric they had two customs:

a. No cleric could celebrate mass without the permission of the superior and he could never celebrate a private mass unless there was a intention to be paid.

and

b. The cleric who celebrated the mass “presided” at the fraternity’s celebration. That’s where Vatican II found the word, “presider”. It came from the religious who were present at Vatican II. This meant that the mass was celebrated by a brotherhood of believers led by a priest.

Except for religious communities of priests, religious communities that were fraternal had the canon said aloud. If you examine later pictures of Padre Pio, when he was getting older and weaker, you will see a microphone on the altar. No Franciscan can exclude his brothers from the mass, ordained or not. He has to say the canon aloud. There has to be dialogue with the congregation.

This was the same for the other monks and mendicants. The difference was whether you chanted or recited. Of course the Carmelites and Dominicans had their own rites. They celebrated either their rite or the Latin Rite. They could do either.

Among the monastic, the Carthusians had their own rite. They never used the Latin Rite.

The other mendicants had varying forms of the EF and we still do to this day. The EF celebrated by a Franciscan, FSSP, and a Trinitarian have differences that most people would not notice unless they’re looking for them.

The idea of having the connection between the LOTH and the mass is that among monks and mendicants, the LOTH is an extension of the mass. It must follow the same format. The shrine of St. Katherine Drexel is setup according to the Franciscan pattern, because she was a Franciscan and founded a Franciscan congregation.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
henrikhank said:
In the traditional Roman Mass the canon is said by the Priest in a silent voice but in the Novus Ordo the the canon in a said by the Piest(s) in a loud voice. Why is the silence not there in the Novus Ordo?
When attending the Novus Ordo don’t you think it’s strange to have the Canon said loud instead of in a silent voice? I mean, you don’t attend an Oriental Mass when attending Novus Ordo.
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The Byzantine Rite is quite the opposite. The older Divine Liturgy of St. Basil has the prayers said aloud, while the “newer” Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom has much of the prayers in the Anaphora said silently.
 
Yeah, I’ve always wondered why:

A. We now have something like ten “Eucharistic Prayers”

and

B. The priest prays them aloud

when neither of these have any history in secular Roman Catholicism of the past 1,500 years. It used to be that the Roman Catholic mass was distinguished by one striking difference from other rites, and that is the Roman Canon. Unfortunately, we now have something like ten “Eucharistic Prayers.” In itself, is this bad? No, but how in God’s name is Roman patrimony going to be preserved in the future when the single-most important prayer of the Roman mass that has barely (very barely) changed in 1,500 years is suddenly “supplemented” with nine other ones? None of the other “Eucharistic Prayers” have really any history at all in the Roman Rite, and one of the main four is a free composition with no history at all.

Also, I think it’s a bit silly to pray the Canon aloud. We are not religious. Just as unfair as it is to shove secular patrimony on religious, I think it’s just as unfair to shove religious patrimony on secular parishes and priests. We are not religious, and they are not secular. Religious have reasons for doing what they do, and secular priests and parishes have reasons for doing what they do. I think it’s imprudent and unfair to expect either group to bend over to the other’s traditions. That’s extremely cruel. Now, that isn’t to say that one group can’t profit from the other’s traditions. But when you take lots of religious practices and paste them into parish life, doesn’t that seem unorganic and unseemly? Doesn’t anyone think that perhaps parish masses and religious masses before the council looked starkly different for a reason? We are not religious and religious are not secular people. We should not have to have each other’s traditions forced on us. Doesn’t anyone think that the Canon was prayed silently in parish masses for a reason?
 
“Why is the silence not there in the Novus Ordo?” :confused:

The iconostasis of silence has been dismantled. Genuflections, kneeling, and silence are discouraged; recollection is made almost impossible by the constant noise and the interaction between celebrant and congregation, all of which expresses no more than the celebration of the community by itself. If we were to ask whether it is the modernism of the liturgy, of doctrine, or of action that has played the greatest role in destroying the whole Catholic world, or Orbis Catholicus, then we must reply that it is the liturgy, for what one prays determines what one believes (according to the principle: lex orandi, lex credendi), and what one believes determines what one does.

rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2011/12/roman-rite-old-and-new-x-conclusion.html#more
 
iohanne said:
Yet the sacrifice of our eucharistic liturgy is the greatest miracle of all and really, the only proper response to the descent of the fiery and eternal Word onto our altars is awestruck silence - as you say, there are appropriate moments of silence and where the Tridentine allows for it, I completely agree with it.
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This is not what the Church teaches, nor is it what the Church herself insists upon.

Awe is met not with silence in some cultures and reverence is not shown by silence in all cultures. To remain silent in some places and cultures would be considered irreverent and disrespectful. Silence in the presence of something awsome is not a universal response but a cultural response and the Church has never forced one culture to adapt to the expectations of another culture.

St. Francis Xavier did not attemp to force the Japanese to respond to the liturgy according to the norms of European Christians when he evangelized Japan beginning in 1549. The same is true for evangelists and missionaries in South America and Africa.

There are threads here on CAF with personal accounts from those who have attended Mass in the interior parts of South America where the response to Christ’s presence on the altar was anything but silence. The coast of South America has a European culture and the response there is silence. This is not true for some of the native populations and the Church does not force the Anglo-European norms on other cultures.

You should experience the sign of peace at a Mass in the Haitian community. I’ve never been hugged by so many women… 😊 We might find it irreverent but it is simply part of their culture, and to not respond in kind would be seen as disrespectful and uncharitable. At the meal afterward, a beautiful young girl put her arm around me and led me to the food table where she personally served me. It was nerve wracking for me, made me a bit uncomfortable, but it is part of their culture.

The point is that the Church does not force the cultural norms of one culture onto another.

-Tim-
 
MarkThompson said:
The choir stalls are arranged so that the choir may sing the Divine Office antiphonally. Mass is only a small part of the divine functions that take place in a monastic chapel.
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can’t you sing antiphonally Ad orientem?
JReducation said:
Most priests who were monks or friars were not allowed to pray the Canon in silence. It was always said aloud so that all of the brethren could participate.
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:confused::confused::confused:
 
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