Canonical Transfer

[smad0142]

From what I have learned the consent of the Apostolic See is only necessary in jurisdictions where an Ordinary is lacking on the part of the releasing church or on the part of the recieving Church. For example the Apostolic See would be involved in a Roman transfer to the Chaldean Church in Iraq since there is no Roman Hierarchy established in Iraq. While that canon you quoted is correct, it is oftentimes incomplete to simply quote one canon without knowledge of the whole Code, in this case Eastern and Wester.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Why is it assumed rather than applied for? I know in the Latin Code of Canon Law that Canon 112 §1 1° it says that canonical transfer between churches requires the permission of the Holy See. As that’s in the Latin Code, I infer it means at least Latins going East must do this. I don’t know what the Code for the Oriental Churches or the particular laws of any Eastern/Oriental church says on the matter.

Maybe they just don’t want to bother with the red tape, and the canon is there so that in cases that they do want to get their hands in, they can say that it always has been the law.

 

[pollycarp]

Consider it done, please keep us updated.

I will especially pray for the intercession of Blessed Titus Brandsma and Saint Peter Thomas, both Carmelites who worked for the unification of the Eastern and Western Churches.

I just read up on Bl Titus Brandsma, and I wondered why someone who was tortured in a concentration camp, crying “not my will but Yours be done”, then killed, would not be a saint.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I just read up on Bl Titus Brandsma, and I wondered why someone who was tortured in a concentration camp, crying “not my will but Yours be done”, then killed, would not be a saint.

The miracle for his canonization “fell through”. That is the woman who had been cured of cancer later died of something else but Rome decided that it was not good enough.

We spoke with the prior general who was in Washington this past weekend giving a talk on Bl Titus to us Carmelite students in the States. He said that there are a couple of miracles that might make it but one of them is another cure from cancer and Rome has decided that any cancer cures must last 10 years to qualify, there are still a couple of years left on that one.

 

[pollycarp]

Thank you.

 

[Vico]

I understand now.

It is two letters but you do not send the second one until the positive answer to the first one.

Makes sense when I think about it.

Thanks!

Hmmm. In our parish, the recommendation letter from the priest and three copies of the request of the faithful petitioning to transfer, and sacramental records of baptism, confirmation, and matrimony, goes to the Byzantine eparch. The eparch gets the approval from the Latin Church, and then a protocol is returned to have it signed and also with two witnesses. Once it is returned, then the final approval protocol is returned and it becomes official upon receipt. Each mailing of documents is likely to take about a month to get a response, so this whole process could take several months if everything is not in order initially.

 

[smad0142]

Vico,

Thats the most formal process I have heard of yet! Other members of my parish did it this way, so I think I am covered.

 

[5Loaves]

and sacramental records of baptism, confirmation, and matrimony, goes to the Byzantine eparch.

Interesting.
I only needed to provide a recent copy of my confirmation record, showing my reception into the Latin Church a number of decades ago. That certificate included the date and location of my baptism in the Episcopal Church. There was nothing noted about nor asked for regarding my marriage, which took place before my reception in the Catholic Church.

My favorite story about that is that the volunteer who typed up the Confirmation certificate at the Chancery had my mother’s maiden name spelled wrong. When I said it was wrong she could have cared less, refused to look at the record book again and had no intention of retyping it. I just left with it and emailed the Cathedral parish Rector who lived in my Latin parish prior to moving to the Cathedral and asked him to help me get a correct copy. The next day there was one ready for me to pick up.

The Church imagines she’s the world’s best record keeper. Sadly, I’ve had plenty of experience in the Latin Church with not great record keeping and I’ve had Orthodox tell me likewise for Orthodox parishes.

On the other hand, the Episcopal Church where I was Baptized had burned down but they had redundancy even back in the 1950s and so had a record of my baptism from that second set of records that survived the fire.

So word to the wise, if you ask for a record be sure to do a proof read of it.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Interesting.
I only needed to provide a recent copy of my confirmation record, showing my reception into the Latin Church a number of decades ago. That certificate included the date and location of my baptism in the Episcopal Church. There was nothing noted about nor asked for regarding my marriage, which took place before my reception in the Catholic Church.

My favorite story about that is that the volunteer who typed up the Confirmation certificate at the Chancery had my mother’s maiden name spelled wrong. When I said it was wrong she could have cared less, refused to look at the record book again and had no intention of retyping it. I just left with it and emailed the Cathedral parish Rector who lived in my Latin parish prior to moving to the Cathedral and asked him to help me get a correct copy. The next day there was one ready for me to pick up.

The Church imagines she’s the world’s best record keeper. Sadly, I’ve had plenty of experience in the Latin Church with not great record keeping and I’ve had Orthodox tell me likewise for Orthodox parishes.

On the other hand, the Episcopal Church where I was Baptized had burned down but they had redundancy even back in the 1950s and so had a record of my baptism from that second set of records that survived the fire.

So word to the wise, if you ask for a record be sure to do a proof read of it.

A priest who’s a previous pastor of mine was joking about the record keeping. He later found out that his ordination was not recorded on his baptismal and he was joking that he could have gotten married

 

[5Loaves]

A priest who’s a previous pastor of mine was joking about the record keeping. He later found out that his ordination was not recorded on his baptismal and he was joking that he could have gotten married

Our deacon’s ordination hadn’t been recorded…

 

[smad0142]

Fortunately for me 5Loaves they actually caught the misspelling of my mother’s maiden name!

 

[Vico]

Any idea why that is?

Jeff

There was a change made to the Latin Church canons since 1983, to allow the same permissions for Latins transferring to the eastern just as in the eastern canons shown below:
CCEO Canon 32

1. No one can validly transfer to another Church sui iuris without the consent of the Apostolic See.
2. In the case of Christian faithful of an eparchy of a certain Church sui iuris who petition to transfer to another Church sui iuris which has its own eparchy in the same territory, this consent of the Apostolic See is presumed, provided that the eparchial bishops of both eparchies consent to the transfer in writing.

The Apostolic See means the Congregation for Oriental Churches which approves the transfers.

 

[MrPip]

There was a change made to the Latin Church canons since 1983, to allow the same permissions for Latins transferring to the eastern just as in the eastern canons shown below:
CCEO Canon 32

1. No one can validly transfer to another Church sui iuris without the consent of the Apostolic See.
2. In the case of Christian faithful of an eparchy of a certain Church sui iuris who petition to transfer to another Church sui iuris which has its own eparchy in the same territory, this consent of the Apostolic See is presumed, provided that the eparchial bishops of both eparchies consent to the transfer in writing.

The Apostolic See means the Congregation for Oriental Churches which approves the transfers.

Thank you .

 

[5Loaves]

Fortunately for me 5Loaves they actually caught the misspelling of my mother’s maiden name!

:whacky:

Apparently it took an Italian priest to read and write her Italian name correctly in my case. Is your mom Italian like mine?

 

[smad0142]

Hahah no, it was just good common sense that prevailed!

 

[PodunkMommy]

I just sent in my letter asking for transfer to the UGCC, prayers please!

I will keep you in my prayers. Many blessings.

 

[JJRfan]

From what I have learned the consent of the Apostolic See is only necessary in jurisdictions where an Ordinary is lacking on the part of the releasing church or on the part of the recieving Church. For example the Apostolic See would be involved in a Roman transfer to the Chaldean Church in Iraq since there is no Roman Hierarchy established in Iraq. While that canon you quoted is correct, it is oftentimes incomplete to simply quote one canon without knowledge of the whole Code, in this case Eastern and Wester.

That approach would be appropriate, and even required, when approaching any legal system. Can you please direct me to parts of the Latin and/or Oriental codes that sheds any further light on this matter?

 

[kitkatty]

Prayers for Smad`s transfer to go smoothly.

 

[davinpa]

Maybe they just don’t want to bother with the red tape, and the canon is there so that in cases that they do want to get their hands in, they can say that it always has been the law.

Well, in Indonesia, the friend of mine made a request for canonical transfer to the Melkite bishop in Sydney. They sent the letter to Damascus and contacted the local Latin hierarchy. Since they have no idea of the ECCs, they say they don’t want to deal with it and asked Rome to do it. Now the case is stuck in Rome since they say there’s no ECCs in Indonesia, how come someone living in Indonesia requested a canonical transfer???

 

[5Loaves]

Well, in Indonesia, the friend of mine made a request for canonical transfer to the Melkite bishop in Sydney. They sent the letter to Damascus and contacted the local Latin hierarchy. Since they have no idea of the ECCs, they say they don’t want to deal with it and asked Rome to do it. Now the case is stuck in Rome** since they say there’s no ECCs in Indonesia, how come someone living in Indonesia requested a canonical transfer???**

I’m not surprised the bishop saw no means of affirming the request. How can one worship in a Church that isn’t there, be that Indonesia or US or anywhere?