Canonization Process

[Fair_Lady]

In order for a “Blessed” to be canonized, there must be at least one miracle attributed to their intercession. I found that tidbit of information in several places including motherteresa.org/09_relics/VENERATION.html where it states “A Blessed may be canonized after the occurrence of one more miracle attributed to his or her intercession”.

Needless to say, several questions should be explored in order to determine whether or not the canonization process is even a credible practice. Here are some:

1. How does anyone know for sure whether or not a miracle was the result of intercession of the person named for sainthood?
2. Could the miracle have possbily been the sovereign work of God as He divinely intervened in the life of the recipient of the miracle? Without regard to anyone’s intercession, because it was His sovereign will for the person to receive the miracle?
3. Could the miracle have taken place because a living Christian interceded with prayer for the individual who received the miracle?
4. How does anyone really know that the “Blessed” considered for “sainthood” is certainly in heaven? Are we suppose to be able to judge that?
5. Where in scripture is there any indication that miracles attributed to the intercession of deceased persons qualify one for sainthood?
6. How does the Bible identify saints?

Well, that’s a start. There will likely be many more questions arise as we discuss this topic.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

It comes down to authority. Either the Holy Spirit (who is to lead us to all truth) is guiding the Church–or He isn’t.

If you don’t believe that the Catholic Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth, and if you don’t believe that it has the authority bestowed through the Spirit, manifested in the apostles and their successors, to ‘bind and loose’ and to definitively lead the believers to all truth --then you won’t be satisfied with any ‘answers’ we could give you.

Of course, if you don’t believe the above, what DO you believe?

The Bible itself does not claim to be the authority (Scripture is not self-interpreting). The individual is not the authority (2 Peter tells us of the perils of trying to interpret the Bible on our own).

Christ is the authority and (as a typical Christian paradox) Christ gave an authority as well, the Bride to His Bridegroom, the Unity with His Divine Self.

So if you recognize the authority as the Catholic Church then you’ll recognize that as an authority it has the power to do whatever the Spirit guides it to do. Including things like being assured that in matters of faith and morals, when a teaching is given and this is either done through the Pope ex cathedra, through the bishops in unison, and/or through the deposit of faith in the ordinary magesterium, we can know, with certainty, that what is being taught is true, guaranteed by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Dear Fair Lady,

It is always the case that a miracle is ascribed to the intercession of a holy person when it occurs following soon after that person was asked, in prayer, to intercede on behalf of someone.

Thus, a man in a car accident with his head broken in two places was in hospital in Philadelphia and the Catholic nurse prayed over him, invoking the aid of St John Neumann, the fourth bishop of Philadelphia. Quite dramatically, the man came back to consciousness and even got up and started walking around as if nothing had happened to him!

In all cases, the saint or holy person interceded with God Who alone performs miracles.

We recognize sainthood in people whose lives celebrate the charism of Jesus Christ and in whom we acknowledge the presence of Jesus. Hopefully, we are all saints in that way. But the early Church honoured those who were martyred for Christ to be encouraged by their example and then the Apostles and others came to be honoured as vessels of the Holy Spirit, as transfigured individuals, partakers in the divinity of Christ.

In the ninth chapter of Revelation, mention is made of the saints in heaven presenting the prayers of those on earth to God. As members of the Body of Christ, we are to pray for one another and those who have gone on to be with Christ in heaven can truly pray for us here on earth as we are all members of the one Body of our Lord which is the Church.

The Seventh Ecumenical Council in the 8th century, once accepted by all Christians world-wide actually commands us to ask for the intercession of the Saint.

Miracles through the intercession of holy people are sure indicators of their sanctity, including the incorruptibility of their bodies. Miracles were attributed to St Peter in the Acts of the Apostles when people would try and throw themselves into his shadow to receive healing, or else touched the Apostles with their handkerchiefs for the same reason. Miracles occurred when people touched the bones of St Eliseus the Prophet of Carmel, as we know. The early Church of the New Testament venerated saints very much.

The fact that we don’t have that much about it in the New Testament means that such veneration was taken for granted as it was widely practiced. Let us also remember that people in the early times of the Christian Church actually distrusted written documents as all kinds of people wrote whatever and tried to ascribe them to Apostles etc. The living practice of the Church was the touchstone of right believing and right worship. This is why we cannot properly interpret the Scriptures apart from being in communion with the Church of the New Testament, the Church that Christ told us He would be with and in for all time.

Alex

 

[Fair_Lady]

It comes down to authority. Either the Holy Spirit (who is to lead us to all truth) is guiding the Church–or He isn’t.

For the sake of sticking to this topic only, I would venture to say that in this matter of canonization, the Holy Spirit *is not *guiding “the Church”. The reason we know this to be true is because one of the objectives of canonization is the veneration of saints. A synonym of “venerate” is “worship”. Only God should be venerated or worshiped, according to what He has said to us in His word.

If you don’t believe that the Catholic Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth, and if you don’t believe that it has the authority bestowed through the Spirit, manifested in the apostles and their successors, to ‘bind and loose’ and to definitively lead the believers to all truth --then you won’t be satisfied with any ‘answers’ we could give you.

Of course, if you don’t believe the above, what DO you believe?

In a nutshell:
"Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phillipians 2: 5-11

And for that reason, I believe that it is a waste of all that time and energy that goes into the canonization process so that someone less than Christ will be given the glory that comes from veneration. That glory belongs to God alone.

Christ is the authority

Yes and we are subject to Him and what He has said to us in His word.

 

[bluemary]

For the sake of sticking to this topic only, I would venture to say that in this matter of canonization, the Holy Spirit *is not *guiding “the Church”. The reason we know this to be true is because one of the objectives of canonization is the veneration of saints. A synonym of “venerate” is “worship”. Only God should be venerated or worshiped, according to what He has said to us in His word.

What is your source saying that venerate and worship are synonyms?

They are not synonyms in the Catholic church at all. As a matter-of-fact if Catholics worship anyone other than God they are ex-communicated. (meaning that whether or not they have been formally declared it or not, they are no longer in communication and unity with the rest of the Catholic church.)

Curious: Do you believe that it is wrong to give people praise and honor for doing something good? Do you believe that you shouldn’t honor a fallen hero or a person that has saved the life of another?

Please don’t forget to mention your source for saying that Venerate and Worship are the same thing.

Peace of Christ to you,
Mary

 

[Philthy]

For the sake of sticking to this topic only, I would venture to say that in this matter of canonization, the Holy Spirit *is not *guiding “the Church”. The reason we know this to be true is because one of the objectives of canonization is the veneration of saints. A synonym of “venerate” is “worship”. Only God should be venerated or worshiped, according to what He has said to us in His word.

• The object of canonization is veneration of the saint? I didnt know that - I thought is was to validate that this person was in fact an instrument of God and a witness to all of us of how powerful God’s grace is, and how worthy of worship He is (every Saint tirelessly points to God as the source of all goodness) and that the life of the Saint can serve as a MODEL OF SPIRITUALITY for pursuing holiness.
• And by the same “logic” you use, veneration and worship CANNOT be the same thing because the Church, which is guided by the Holy Spirit into “all truth”, allows veneration of creation while worship is reserved, as you say, for God alone.

And for that reason, I believe that it is a waste of all that time and energy that goes into the canonization process so that someone less than Christ will be given the glory that comes from veneration. That glory belongs to God alone.

Glory for the Saint does not flow from veneration. God gets all the glory from the life adn canonization of the Saint - thats the whole point of officially acknowledging them as Saints - so that they can be fully recognized as the elect of God. Otherwise they can be mistaken for “just another good person” based upon their own merits.
Where you are totally confused is in thinking its a “waste of time and energy” since most Saints followed in the footsteps of other Saints, which they may not have done without the assurance that comes with those Saints having been formally recognized as such. Saints provide a role model of how Christ is manifest in our day, our time, our culture, etc.
This is most especially true for women and those whose vocation (ie calling) is the married life.

Yes and we are subject to Him and what He has said to us in His word.

You mean like we are subject to, “Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life in you?”

The canonization process is to provide validation of the spiritual walk of a particular individual so that others, if they are so called, can follow that path to knowing, loving and serving our Lord. That’s really all it is…

 

[Tantum_ergo]

For the sake of sticking to this topic only, I would venture to say that in this matter of canonization, the Holy Spirit *is not *guiding “the Church”. The reason we know this to be true is because one of the objectives of canonization is the veneration of saints. A synonym of “venerate” is “worship”. Only God should be venerated or worshiped, according to what He has said to us in His word.
TE: Do you venerate --that is, honor, your father and mother, Fair Lady? As Scripture tells us to do? You do not worship your parents, but you venerate them. So your premise is false, Fair Lady, if you are trying to say that by your current understanding of the use of the word that ‘venerate’ or ‘worship’ are **only to be applied to God. That is a modern and Protestant narrowing which attempts to use language ‘against’ another group. **
Venerate: 1, to regard with reverential respect or with admiring deference
2
: to honor (as an icon or a relic) with a ritual act of devotion.

Worship: : reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence.
And (mark this **well because it shows the evolution of language: **chiefly British : a person of importance —used as a title for various officials (as magistrates and some mayors.

You see that originally the word for worship was understood as **not necessarily a reverence to a divine being ONLY. The usage of the word which is more ‘synonymous’ with 'venerate goes back to a time where it was understood that there were *gradations ***of respect which one paid to people --one’s earthly superiors (parents, rulers) and the highest worship which was to God.

If one insists on narrowing the field and applying terms in that narrow understanding ‘back’ a couple of thousand years. . .then, dear Fair Lady, all the references in literature including works like Malory’s Morte D’Artur, Chaucer’s Canturbury Tales, and works of writers including Pliny, Cicero, Virgil, and even Hesiod, were all talking about homosexual people every time the word ‘gay’ is used.

**SURELY you would not believe that somebody writing 2000 or more years ago in using a word translated to English as ‘gay’ was calling something homosexual? You would know that the use of that term is **extremely recent in vintage.

Why, then, do you insist on applying to Scripture standards and meanings of words in a falsely narrowed contemporary sense, which those words did NOT express then???

In a nutshell:
"Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phillipians 2: 5-11

And for that reason, I believe that it is a waste of all that time and energy that goes into the canonization process so that someone less than Christ will be given the glory that comes from veneration. That glory belongs to God alone.

TE: Again, nobody seeks to ‘take glory from God’. Your false, modern and narrow attempts to redefine language in a sense that you have squeezed it DOWN to in modern society and to use it in that sense in language of centuries past is false.

Yes and we are subject to Him and what He has said to us in His word.

 

[Fair_Lady]

In all cases, the saint or holy person interceded with God Who alone performs miracles.

Hello Alex,

Your statement would be in agreement with a webpage I read on this subject which states “Since miracles are considered proof that the person is in heaven and can intercede for us, the miracle must take place after the candidate’s death and as a result of a specific petition to the candidate.” That quotation comes from catholic.org/saints/faq.php

However, when we go to scripture, there are some clear warnings that indicate otherwise:
"Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ " Matthew 7:22, 23

“For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.” Matthew 24:24

Miracles through the intercession of holy people are sure indicators of their sanctity, including the incorruptibility of their bodies.

That is something I have never ever heard before. What is there in scripture that would even hint that this is so?

The early Church of the New Testament venerated saints very much.

The fact that we don’t have that much about it in the New Testament means that such veneration was taken for granted as it was widely practiced.

Or, not having it in the New Testament means that it wasn’t a practice. I would think the latter would be the case, because I’ve never seen any indication in scripture that saints who have died should be venerated.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Hello Alex,

Your statement would be in agreement with a webpage I read on this subject which states “Since miracles are considered proof that the person is in heaven and can intercede for us, the miracle must take place after the candidate’s death and as a result of a specific petition to the candidate.” That quotation comes from catholic.org/saints/faq.php

However, when we go to scripture, there are some clear warnings that indicate otherwise:
"Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ " Matthew 7:22, 23

Where does Scripture say that performance of a miracle of any kind is ‘evil-doing?’

Doesn’t Scripture also tell us, Mark 9: But Jesus said: Do not forbid him. For there is no man that doth a miracle in my name, and can soon speak ill of me. [39] For he that is not against you, is for you.

And what about John 14:12 [12] Otherwise believe for the very works’ sake. Amen, amen I say to you, he that believeth in me, the works that I do, he also shall do; and greater than these shall he do.

 

[Fair_Lady]

Fair Lady;6993152:

Where does Scripture say that performance of a miracle of any kind is ‘evil-doing?’

The point isn’t that the performance of a miracle of any kind is evil-doing. The point is that the devil has the capability of doing miracles and he is not in heaven. The article for which I provided a link states "“Since miracles are considered proof that the person is in heaven and can intercede for us…”. We know from scripture that this is a false statement because the devil is not in heaven, but he has the ability to perform miracles. Not surprisingly so because he can appear as an “angel of light” as stated here :

(2 Corinthians 11:13-15 (King James Version)
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Doesn’t Scripture also tell us, Mark 9: But Jesus said: Do not forbid him. For there is no man that doth a miracle in my name, and can soon speak ill of me. [39] For he that is not against you, is for you.

And what about John 14:12 [12] Otherwise believe for the very works’ sake. Amen, amen I say to you, he that believeth in me, the works that I do, he also shall do; and greater than these shall he do.

No problem with that at all. Miracles done by Jesus and by those who did them in His name are wonderful. Again, the point I am making is that Satan comes with an intent to deceive and he has the ability to perform miracles in order to deceive.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Tantum ergo;6993179:

The point isn’t that the performance of a miracle of any kind is evil-doing. The point is that the devil has the capability of doing miracles and he is not in heaven. The article for which I provided a link states "“Since miracles are considered proof that the person is in heaven and can intercede for us…”. We know from scripture that this is a false statement because the devil is not in heaven, but he has the ability to perform miracles. Not surprisingly so because he can appear as an “angel of light” as stated here :

(2 Corinthians 11:13-15 (King James Version)
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light

.

Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Again, the point is not your incorrect idea that the fact that the devil (not in heaven) can do miracles is somehow tied in with the Catholic Church and its determination of sainthood based (in part) on miracles done by God through the invocation of a particular person. (Just as St. Peter, for example, was the person who raised a man from the dead, 'in the name of Jesus"–and St. Paul as well.) You must realize that Catholics who ask for a miracle THROUGH a saint are not asking the SAINT to do the miracle but for God to work THROUGH the saint. (who, unlike the devil, is in heaven).

No problem with that at all. Miracles done by Jesus and by those who did them in His name are wonderful. Again, the point I am making is that Satan comes with an intent to deceive and he has the ability to perform miracles in order to deceive.

Actually, your point seems to be an accusation that putative saints and the question of whether a miracle has been given by God through them is unquestionably Satanic in origin. But just because Satan ‘can’ deceive does not mean that in the Catholic Church and its consideration of putative sainthood that Satan IS deceiving them.

Isn’t it as likely that Satan is deceiving YOU by making you think that the Church canonization is Satanic when it is not? That is certainly deception, and Satan is presenting himself as an angel of light in using “scripture”? So the people who quote Scripture ( and present themselves as angels of light but in reality are not) aren’t necessarily Catholics. . . .

Right?

 

[Fair_Lady]

What is your source saying that venerate and worship are synonyms?

Merriam-Webster at merriam-webster.com/dictionary/venerate :

“Related to VENERATE
Synonyms: adore, deify, glorify, revere, reverence, worship”

They are not synonyms in the Catholic church at all. As a matter-of-fact if Catholics worship anyone other than God they are ex-communicated. (meaning that whether or not they have been formally declared it or not, they are no longer in communication and unity with the rest of the Catholic church.)

Can you see what appears to be a worshipful attitude expressed in a few examples of prayers to saints where I’ve highlighted them in red?

The following snippets are from: catholic.org/prayers/prayer.php?p=778

From: Prayer to Saint Michael for Powerful Aid"
Glorious Prince of the heavenly hosts
and victor over rebellious spirits,
be mindful of me who am so weak and sinful
and yet so prone to pride and ambition.

From: Prayer to St. Joseph #7

Glorious Saint Joseph,
foster-father and protector of Jesus Christ,
to you I raise my heart and my hands
to implore your powerful intercession…

Guardian of the Word Incarnate,
I feel animated with confidence
that your prayers in my behalf
will be graciously heard before the throne of God.

O glorious Saint Joseph,
through the love you bear to Jesus Christ,…"

Some examples from ewtn.com/Devotionals/prayers/index.htm :
From “Consecration to Mary”

"O Mary, Virgin most powerful and Mother of mercy, Queen of Heaven and Refuge of sinners, we consecrate ourselves to thine Immaculate Heart.

We consecrate to thee our very being and our whole life; all that we have, all that we love, all that we are. To thee we give our bodies, our hearts and our souls; to thee we give our homes, our families, our country.

From "Devotion to St. Joseph:

O most watchful Guardian of the Holy Family, defend the chosen children of Jesus Christ;
O most loving father,
ward off from us every contagion of error and corrupting influence;
O our most mighty protector,
be propitious to us and from heaven assist us in our struggle with the power of darkness;
and, as once you rescued the Child Jesus from deadly peril

Curious: Do you believe that it is wrong to give people praise and honor for doing something good? Do you believe that you shouldn’t honor a fallen hero or a person that has saved the life of another?

As you can see from the examples of prayers above, they go above and beyond any praise that we typically offer people for a job well done and with whom we rub shoulders with on a day to day basis. And what is this about consecrating ourselves to a saint? Should we really be consecrating ourselves to saints? Again I refer to the Merriam-Webster dictionary:
Definition of CONSECRATE
: dedicated to a sacred purpose

All prayers should be offered to the One Almighty God who hears all of our prayers and loves us with an everlasting love that is unmatched by any person (other than Christ) who has ever walked this earth.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Merriam-Webster at merriam-webster.com/dictionary/venerate :

“Related to VENERATE
Synonyms: adore, deify, glorify, revere, reverence, worship”

Can you see what appears to be a worshipful attitude expressed in a few examples of prayers to saints where I’ve highlighted them in red?

The following snippets are from: catholic.org/prayers/prayer.php?p=778

From: Prayer to Saint Michael for Powerful Aid"
Glorious Prince of the heavenly hosts
and victor over rebellious spirits,
be mindful of me who am so weak and sinful
and yet so prone to pride and ambition.

From: Prayer to St. Joseph #7

Glorious Saint Joseph,
foster-father and protector of Jesus Christ,
to you I raise my heart and my hands
to implore your powerful intercession…

Guardian of the Word Incarnate,
I feel animated with confidence
that your prayers in my behalf
will be graciously heard before the throne of God.

O glorious Saint Joseph,
through the love you bear to Jesus Christ,…"

Some examples from ewtn.com/Devotionals/prayers/index.htm :
From “Consecration to Mary”

"O Mary, Virgin most powerful and Mother of mercy, Queen of Heaven and Refuge of sinners, we consecrate ourselves to thine Immaculate Heart.

We consecrate to thee our very being and our whole life; all that we have, all that we love, all that we are. To thee we give our bodies, our hearts and our souls; to thee we give our homes, our families, our country.

From "Devotion to St. Joseph:

O most watchful Guardian of the Holy Family, defend the chosen children of Jesus Christ;
O most loving father,
ward off from us every contagion of error and corrupting influence;
O our most mighty protector,
be propitious to us and from heaven assist us in our struggle with the power of darkness;
and, as once you rescued the Child Jesus from deadly peril

As you can see from the examples of prayers above, they go above and beyond any praise that we typically offer people for a job well done and with whom we rub shoulders with on a day to day basis. And what is this about consecrating ourselves to a saint? Should we really be consecrating ourselves to saints? Again I refer to the Merriam-Webster dictionary:
Definition of CONSECRATE
: dedicated to a sacred purpose

All prayers should be offered to the One Almighty God who hears all of our prayers and loves us with an everlasting love that is unmatched by any person (other than Christ) who has ever walked this earth.

We went through this in posts above. A synonym is not an exact approximation word for word, and the history of the words themselves and their MANY (not just one) meanings show that:

A. Worship (the word) itself was not historically understood to refer to “that offered to GOD ALONE”.
For example, in Britain judges are still called, "your worship’. Do the British worship their judges, Fair Lady?

B. The ‘devotion’ (also ‘honor’, ‘veneration’, or even "adoration’) likewise, as words, do not refer to "God alone’.

When Frankie Valli and the Four Seasons were singing, “My Eyes Adored You”, were they ‘idolizing’ a young woman and disrespecting GOD???

Fair Lady, the fact that you want to take a MODERN (less than a couple of hundred year old) narrowing Protestant ‘focus’ and back-apply it to Scripture and teachings is as wrong to do in regard to ‘worship’ AS IT WOULD BE TO TELL US THAT USE OF THE WORD GAY IN LITERATURE BEFORE THE MID 20TH CENTURY ALWAYS REFERS TO HOMOSEXUAL PEOPLE.

 

[Fair_Lady]

Fair Lady, the fact that you want to take a MODERN (less than a couple of hundred year old) narrowing Protestant ‘focus’ and back-apply it to Scripture and teachings is as wrong to do in regard to ‘worship’ AS IT WOULD BE TO TELL US THAT USE OF THE WORD GAY IN LITERATURE BEFORE THE MID 20TH CENTURY ALWAYS REFERS TO HOMOSEXUAL PEOPLE.

Good point. For that reason, it would be best to go to scripture and contemplate the words of Jesus to Satan in Matthew 4:10 and follow that up with some serious Bible study - “… for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.”

Another important verse to consider in this discussion:

“When you come into the land which the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord, and because of these abominations the Lord your God drives them out from before you.” (Deuteronomy 18:9)

Perhaps this webpage can be of value as well: en.allexperts.com/q/Baptists-954/intercessions-saints-1.htm

 

[Tomster]

Good point. For that reason, it would be best to go to scripture and contemplate the words of Jesus to Satan in Matthew 4:10 and follow that up with some serious Bible study - “… for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.”

Another important verse to consider in this discussion:

“When you come into the land which the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord, and because of these abominations the Lord your God drives them out from before you.” (Deuteronomy 18:9)

Perhaps this webpage can be of value as well: en.allexperts.com/q/Baptists-954/intercessions-saints-1.htm

But then again, perhaps it won’t.

The doctrine of the communion of saints is a truth of faith which constitutes one of the articles of the Creed.

It consists in an intimate union and in a mutual influence among the members of the Church Militant, Church Suffering, and Church Triumphant (the Church on earth, in purgatory, and in heaven) This union and participation of the proper goods of the Church is founded chiefly on the truth of the Mystical Body, through which all men in the large sense belong to Christ in virtue of the Incarnation and the Redemption; in the strict sense they are but one thing in Christ, as members of one sole organism, by force of baptism and, therefore, of faith and charity. In this mystical organism which is the Church, Christ the Head injects the supernatural life of grace by means of the Holy Spirit, who is like the soul. United to Christ, the faithful are united among themselves; and this union is reinforced by the sacraments, channels of that grace which is the participation the divine nature and the cause of the indwelling of the Holy Trinity in each sanctified soul. The Gospel image of the vine (Christ) and the tendrils (Christians), the doctrine developed by St. Paul (1 Corinthians, Colossians, Ephesians, Romans) about the Mystical Body and the Church, are a living expression of the dogma of the Communion of Saints, i.e., of all Christian souls for whom Christ prayed at the Last Supper: “That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee” (John 17:21)

The Eastern Fathers of the Church illustrate this dogma in the light of the Holy Spirit, who diffuses natural life in all Christians. The Western Fathers prefer to explain it from the focal point of the Church, Mystical Body of Christ, temporal and eternal society of the redeemed. Both considerations lead to the concept of a common life, of a vital and mystical communion, in reason of which Christians fighting for good on earth, the souls in purgatory, and the blessed in heaven, communicate mutually one to the other the fruits of the Redemption, kept in the treasury of the Church, by prayer and by charity.

Hope this helps! :tiphat:

 

[Tomster]

Good point. For that reason, it would be best to go to scripture and contemplate the words of Jesus to Satan in Matthew 4:10 and follow that up with some serious Bible study - “… for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.”

Another important verse to consider in this discussion:

“When you come into the land which the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord, and because of these abominations the Lord your God drives them out from before you.” (Deuteronomy 18:9)

Perhaps this webpage can be of value as well: en.allexperts.com/q/Baptists-954/intercessions-saints-1.htm

 

[Tomster]

Good point. For that reason, it would be best to go to scripture and contemplate the words of Jesus to Satan in Matthew 4:10 and follow that up with some serious Bible study - “… for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.”

Another important verse to consider in this discussion:

“When you come into the land which the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord, and because of these abominations the Lord your God drives them out from before you.” (Deuteronomy 18:9)

Fair Lady,

If you are really serious about engaging in some serious bible study do not forget to take into consideration 1 Corinthians, Colossians, Ephesians and Romans regarding Christ’s Mystical Body.

The saints in heaven are more alive than any soul on earth.

Perhaps this webpage can be of value as well: en.allexperts.com/q/Baptists-954/intercessions-saints-1.htm

 

[Tomster]

Good point. For that reason, it would be best to go to scripture and contemplate the words of Jesus to Satan in Matthew 4:10 and follow that up with some serious Bible study - “… for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.”

Another important verse to consider in this discussion:

“When you come into the land which the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord, and because of these abominations the Lord your God drives them out from before you.” (Deuteronomy 18:9)

Perhaps this webpage can be of value as well: en.allexperts.com/q/Baptists-954/intercessions-saints-1.htm

Fair Lady,

In your self directed bible study it would be in your best interest not to neglect the epistles of St. Paul, namely, 1 Corinthians, Colossians, Ephesians and Romans.

These epistles will give you the correct information regarding the doctrine of the Communion of Saints.

The saints in heaven are more alive that anyone here on earth. They are united to God in eternity. They are truly saved!

 

[Fair_Lady]

Fair Lady,

In your self directed bible study it would be in your best interest not to neglect the epistles of St. Paul, namely, 1 Corinthians, Colossians, Ephesians and Romans.

These epistles will give you the correct information regarding the doctrine of the Communion of Saints.

The saints in heaven are more alive that anyone here on earth. They are united to God in eternity. They are truly saved!

Yes, I agree with you that the saints in heaven are alive, but we won’t all be together until that great day when Jesus returns with His bride, the church, which includes all true believers in Jesus Christ.

Here’s a challenge for everyone who feels the need to seek help from a saint who has gone on before us. I’m going to post Psalm 18 below and after reading it, if there is one of you who still feels a need to commune with a saint instead of going straight to God, I would be curious as to why that would be. I can’t think of a single saint who has ever walked the face of this earth who could be of help over and above the One who is being spoken of here.

1 I will love You, O LORD, my strength.
2 The LORD is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer;
My God, my strength, in whom I will trust;
My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.
3 I will call upon the LORD, who is worthy to be praised;
So shall I be saved from my enemies.

4 The pangs of death surrounded me,
And the floods of ungodliness made me afraid.
5 The sorrows of Sheol surrounded me;
The snares of death confronted me.
6 In my distress I called upon the LORD,
And cried out to my God;
He heard my voice from His temple,
And my cry came before Him, even to His ears.

7 Then the earth shook and trembled;
The foundations of the hills also quaked and were shaken,
Because He was angry.
8 Smoke went up from His nostrils,
And devouring fire from His mouth;
Coals were kindled by it.
9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With darkness under His feet.
10 And He rode upon a cherub, and flew;
He flew upon the wings of the wind.
11 He made darkness His secret place;
His canopy around Him was dark waters
And thick clouds of the skies.
12 From the brightness before Him,
His thick clouds passed with hailstones and coals of fire.

13 The LORD thundered from heaven,
And the Most High uttered His voice,
Hailstones and coals of fire.[a]
14 He sent out His arrows and scattered the foe,
Lightnings in abundance, and He vanquished them.
15 Then the channels of the sea were seen,
The foundations of the world were uncovered
At Your rebuke, O LORD,
At the blast of the breath of Your nostrils.

16 He sent from above, He took me;
He drew me out of many waters.
17 He delivered me from my strong enemy,
From those who hated me,
For they were too strong for me.
18 They confronted me in the day of my calamity,
But the LORD was my support.
19 He also brought me out into a broad place;
He delivered me because He delighted in me.

20 The LORD rewarded me according to my righteousness;
According to the cleanness of my hands
He has recompensed me.
21 For I have kept the ways of the LORD,
And have not wickedly departed from my God.
22 For all His judgments were before me,
And I did not put away His statutes from me.
23 I was also blameless before Him,
And I kept myself from my iniquity.
24 Therefore the LORD has recompensed me according to my righteousness,
According to the cleanness of my hands in His sight.

25 With the merciful You will show Yourself merciful;
With a blameless man You will show Yourself blameless;
26 With the pure You will show Yourself pure;
And with the devious You will show Yourself shrewd.
27 For You will save the humble people,
But will bring down haughty looks.

28 For You will light my lamp;
The LORD my God will enlighten my darkness.
29 For by You I can run against a troop,
By my God I can leap over a wall.
30 As for God, His way is perfect;
The word of the LORD is proven;
He is a shield to all who trust in Him.

31 For who is God, except the LORD?
And who is a rock, except our God?
32 It is God who arms me with strength,
And makes my way perfect.
33 He makes my feet like the feet of deer,
And sets me on my high places.
34 He teaches my hands to make war,
So that my arms can bend a bow of bronze.

35 You have also given me the shield of Your salvation;
Your right hand has held me up,
Your gentleness has made me great.
36 You enlarged my path under me,
So my feet did not slip.

 

[Fair_Lady]

Psalm 18 continued:

37 I have pursued my enemies and overtaken them;
Neither did I turn back again till they were destroyed.
38 I have wounded them,
So that they could not rise;
They have fallen under my feet.
39 For You have armed me with strength for the battle;
You have subdued under me those who rose up against me.
40 You have also given me the necks of my enemies,
So that I destroyed those who hated me.
41 They cried out, but there was none to save;
Even to the LORD, but He did not answer them.
42 Then I beat them as fine as the dust before the wind;
I cast them out like dirt in the streets.

43 You have delivered me from the strivings of the people;
You have made me the head of the nations;
A people I have not known shall serve me.
44 As soon as they hear of me they obey me;
The foreigners submit to me.
45 The foreigners fade away,
And come frightened from their hideouts.

46 The LORD lives!
Blessed be my Rock!
Let the God of my salvation be exalted.
47 It is God who avenges me,
And subdues the peoples under me;
48 He delivers me from my enemies.
You also lift me up above those who rise against me;
You have delivered me from the violent man.
49 Therefore I will give thanks to You, O LORD, among the Gentiles,
And sing praises to Your name.

50 Great deliverance He gives to His king,
And shows mercy to His anointed,
To David and his descendants forevermore.