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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Thanks, but no thank you.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Praying to the saints is not something Catholics do ‘instead of’ praying to God.
If you could only get that through your head, Fair Lady, how much more productive our communications would be!!!
I pray the psalms daily as part of the Liturgy of the Hours. I read Scripture daily. And I pray the rosary daily.
When I pray the rosary (which is scripturally based, with the Our Father and the Hail Mary which comes from Luke’s gospel), I meditate on the life of (wait for it) Jesus. Jesus, who came to save humanity. Jesus, who speaks to all of us. Jesus, who spoke to His disciples and whose disciples (Peter, James, John. . .and the one ‘born out of time’, Paul) speak to us.
Jesus who spoke to us in the prefigurings of the Old Testament.
Jesus who speaks to us today.
So it kind of fries me to hear from somebody who thinks that because I include as fellow prayer-partners both my friends ‘alive’ today and those friends like the saints who have died and gone before us to heaven, I’m somehow ‘not’ praying to ‘God’. **I most certainly AM praying to God! **
When Jesus went to the mountain and was transfigured; when He went to the Garden of Gethsemane to pray, notice how He took not one person (Hey! It’s me-n-Jesus time). . .he took two, three or more. How often do we see that in the times where Jesus was ‘speaking the most’ He spoke either to the Twelve or took Peter, James and John. Yes, we have a very ‘personal’ relationship with God but He Himself (Jesus) gave us TWO “Great commandments”. Loving God is #1 and the second? Love your NEIGHBOR as yourself.
Go and speak the Good News to ALL PEOPLE.
BTW, Fair Lady, you do know that prayers ‘to the dead’ --that is, to the people who were martyred, the very earliest Christians like St. Stephen, were found written in the catacombs? Wouldn’t you think that if this was an ‘abuse’, that these people whom we otherwise hold responsible for the spread of, and the ultimate triumph, of Christianity going through the world, would have either NOT written the prayers, or addressed this and ‘corrected it?’ I mean, all the other ‘problem areas’ that have crept in by people who confuse Christianity with their ‘personal ideas’ usually got addressed very quickly. (You don’t see an unbroken line of Gnostics, Arians, Pelagians, Monophysites, etc. the way you do Christians, because when these people started to inflict their errors into Christianity, the Holy Spirit guided the Church to reject the errors. But golly gee, the Holy Spirit didn’t find anything ‘wrong’ with believing in prayer to the saints, or in finding that Mary was without sin. Imagine that!)
If you could only get that through your head, Fair Lady, how much more productive our communications would be!!!
I pray the psalms daily as part of the Liturgy of the Hours. I read Scripture daily. And I pray the rosary daily.
When I pray the rosary (which is scripturally based, with the Our Father and the Hail Mary which comes from Luke’s gospel), I meditate on the life of (wait for it) Jesus. Jesus, who came to save humanity. Jesus, who speaks to all of us. Jesus, who spoke to His disciples and whose disciples (Peter, James, John. . .and the one ‘born out of time’, Paul) speak to us.
Jesus who spoke to us in the prefigurings of the Old Testament.
Jesus who speaks to us today.
So it kind of fries me to hear from somebody who thinks that because I include as fellow prayer-partners both my friends ‘alive’ today and those friends like the saints who have died and gone before us to heaven, I’m somehow ‘not’ praying to ‘God’. **I most certainly AM praying to God! **
When Jesus went to the mountain and was transfigured; when He went to the Garden of Gethsemane to pray, notice how He took not one person (Hey! It’s me-n-Jesus time). . .he took two, three or more. How often do we see that in the times where Jesus was ‘speaking the most’ He spoke either to the Twelve or took Peter, James and John. Yes, we have a very ‘personal’ relationship with God but He Himself (Jesus) gave us TWO “Great commandments”. Loving God is #1 and the second? Love your NEIGHBOR as yourself.
Go and speak the Good News to ALL PEOPLE.
BTW, Fair Lady, you do know that prayers ‘to the dead’ --that is, to the people who were martyred, the very earliest Christians like St. Stephen, were found written in the catacombs? Wouldn’t you think that if this was an ‘abuse’, that these people whom we otherwise hold responsible for the spread of, and the ultimate triumph, of Christianity going through the world, would have either NOT written the prayers, or addressed this and ‘corrected it?’ I mean, all the other ‘problem areas’ that have crept in by people who confuse Christianity with their ‘personal ideas’ usually got addressed very quickly. (You don’t see an unbroken line of Gnostics, Arians, Pelagians, Monophysites, etc. the way you do Christians, because when these people started to inflict their errors into Christianity, the Holy Spirit guided the Church to reject the errors. But golly gee, the Holy Spirit didn’t find anything ‘wrong’ with believing in prayer to the saints, or in finding that Mary was without sin. Imagine that!)
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Fair_Lady
Guest
When one is praying to a saint, they are not praying to God. They are praying to someone much lower than God.
Then it shold be clear as to how superior God is over mankind and that He is the One wants our prayers, hears our prayers and answers our prayers.
Not if you are praying to a lowly saint. By that I mean that the greatness of God is ultimately greater than the most esteemed saint.
“O Lord, our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens… When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained, What is man, that thou art mindful of him?..”
(Psalm 8:1,3,4)
“The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works. The Lord is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth.”
(Psalm 145:17,18)
“He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names. Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.”
(Psalm 147:4,5)
Is there a saint in heaven that has the greatness of God? No, not one!
Amen.
There is evidence of all kinds of behaviour and ways of life from times past, but they are not necessarily holy or righteous. What we need to follow with obedience is found in scripture and praying to saints is not to be found there. But we do find:
“Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.” Hebrews 4:14-16
"But golly gee, the Holy Spirit didn’t find anything ‘wrong’ with believing in prayer to the saints, or in finding that Mary was without sin. Imagine that!)
I find that a rather strange statement. What has the Holy Spirit given you in God’s word that would support what you have just said?
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Tantum_ergo
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Tomster
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Tomster
Guest
I find that a rather strange statement. What has the Holy Spirit given you in God’s word that would support what you have just said?
The Apocalypse reveals the concern of the saints in Heaven for their fellow believers who are still sojourning on earth in the midst of difficulties of all sorts. “And when he broke the fifth seal, I saw there, beneath the alter, the souls of all who had been slain for the love of God’s word and of the truth they held, crying out with a loud voice, ‘Sovereign Lord, the Holy, the True, how long now before Thou wilt sit in judgment, and exact vengeance for our blood from all those who dwell on earth?’ Whereupon a white robe was given to each of them, and they were bidden to take their rest a little while longer, until their number had been made up by those others, their brethren and fellow-servants, who were to die as they had died.” (Apoc.6:9-11)
Clearly, the souls of the blessed cannot be full of hatred or revenge. Their clamor is a prayer to stop the persecution raging against the Church. The bible shows us the saints in heaven praying for Christians on earth.
We also know that the blessed take an interest in what is happening on earth, for Christ said: “So it is, I tell you, in Heaven; there will be more rejoicing over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine souls that are justified, and have no need of repentence.” (Luke 15:7)
St. Paul felt united to all those who, throughout Old Testament history, had been steadfast in the Faith. “Why, then, since we are watched from above by such a cloud of witnesses, let us rid ourselves of all that weighs us down, of the sinful habit that clings so closely.” (Hebrews 12:1) If they are witnesses, it is because they know our needs and the dangers surrounding us. If they see, they also hear our cries for help. As they are “priests of God,” (Apoc. 20:6), surely they exercise their priesthood and pray for us.
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Tomster
Guest
I find that a rather strange statement. What has the Holy Spirit given you in God’s word that would support what you have just said?
Fair Lady,
socrates58.blogspot.com/2007/06/my-biblical-passages-supporting.html
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Philthy
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Fair_Lady
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Yes, we are to pray to God. However, Scripture does not tell us that we cannot pray to others. Prayer means to ask. You ‘pray’ to a person any time you ask that person to do something. Right now, Fair Lady, I am praying to YOU to read my words on your computer. Did you know that? I am asking you to read my words, to ‘communicate’ with me by reading and responding, therefore I am praying to you.
When we pray to God, we communicate with Him. Our prayer can take many forms. It can be silent prayer without even words. It can be a ‘rote’ prayer like the Our Father (but of course prayed with ‘meaning’ and understanding, not just ‘droned out’. It can be a short prayer “Help me God”. It can be a longer prayer ‘off the cuff’. It can be praise, it can be petition.
When we pray to our friends, we use the same things – we can ‘look’ across the room and our children will know to ‘stop’ what they’re doing! We can give the rote “Because I said so”. . .but then be ready to go further “and this is why”. It can be a short “help, friend”, it can be a longer ‘dialogue’. We can praise our friends, we can petition our friends.
Prayer is communication.
The highest communication of course is prayer to God. . .but we cannot speak ‘only to God’. He Himself commands us to love our neighbors as ourselves. . .not to ignore the person sitting next to us as we drone over and over, “I love you God, I love you God”. . .and pay no attention that our neighbor is hungry or hurting and that we could help him that very minute!
And when we stop, Fair Lady, and we reach over and put some money in the homeless man’s cup, or help a ‘fair lady’ across the street, we aren’t ‘ignoring God’ because at that moment we are ‘praying’ by action for others.
So when we pray to Mary, we are doing what Elizabeth did. Remember? Mary went to visit Elizabeth. Now Elizabeth was miraculously pregnant. By your logic, Fair Lady, Elizabeth should have been so focused on praying to GOD that at most she would see Mary approach and say, “hi kinswoman, wanna join me in thanking God for my pregnancy?”
But what did Elizabeth do? She prayed to Mary. Yes, she did. She didn’t say, “God, look who’s here.” She said TO MARY HERSELF, "And how is this that the MOTHER OF MY LORD SHOULD COME TO ME?"
**Elizabeth is PRAYING TO MARY. **
**That is the way we pray to Mary as well. And it’s Scriptural, isn’t it? Right there in Luke. **
**When we pray, we ask, “how is this that the mother of My Lord comes to me?” And then we join Mary saying, “My soul does magnify the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior. . .henceforth all men will call you, Mary, highly blessed. . .blessed is the fruit of your womb, JESUS. . .” **
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Fair_Lady
Guest
Goin’ a little overboard, are we?
I have no issues with Mary and Elizabeth talking with each other face to face. My issue has to do with communicating with spirits other than God.
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Fair_Lady
Guest
Care to elaborate on what scripture says of the Mystical Body of Christ?
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Tomster
Guest
oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Mystical_Body_of_the_Church
And we must include what Sacred Tradition has to say on the matter.
Read Pope Pius XII’s Encyclical Letter “The Mystical Body of Christ.”
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Fair_Lady
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Fair_Lady
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Philthy
Guest
I said the following in regard to the purpose of Canonization
"Philthy:
Catholics have a pretty simple answer…Beatification/Canonization. What is your answer?
Also, did it ever occur to you that the apostles needed to be recognized as such by the faithful in order to trust that what was written by them was Scripture? The NT was not fully recognized until the 4th Century…who testified to the “trustworthiness” of their alleged writings? The same Church that testifies to the trustworthiness of the Saints through Canonization.
Blessings!
"Philthy:
And you replied…
Necessary? Perhaps not, but what if it were merely beneficial toward that end - would you still have a problem with it? I can tell you that the canonization process separates the truly holy lives from those “miracles and delusions” that Satan can powerfully exhibit to mislead the faithful. In that sense, it is necessary! How are we - of ourselves - to separate holy lives from delusions of holiness concocted by Satan to mislead us?
Catholics have a pretty simple answer…Beatification/Canonization. What is your answer?
Can we really? Of course we can, but I think that is a bit of an oversimplification, really. Is it so easy to recognize how the celibate, itinerant, unemployed life of Jesus which ended in Crucifixion at age 33 is meant to be applied in our marriages, parenting, motherhood, and work place? Is it clear how the life of Christ is lived by those 40, 50, 60, 70 and 80 or more years old? It becomes readily apparent that having a known Saint who lived a life very much like my own becomes a powerful tool along with everything we can gain from Scripture for personal holiness. They are complimentary, not contradictory. The life of a Saint reveals how one “offers their body as a living sacrifice holy and pleasing to God” in circumstances and times more similar to our own. They serve as a model of Christ’s holiness manifest in our own times. It is a tremendous gift to recognize such a thing. Think about it…it makes a lot of sense.
Also, did it ever occur to you that the apostles needed to be recognized as such by the faithful in order to trust that what was written by them was Scripture? The NT was not fully recognized until the 4th Century…who testified to the “trustworthiness” of their alleged writings? The same Church that testifies to the trustworthiness of the Saints through Canonization.
These two statements contradict one another: IF outward actions should be an expression of what is happening inside our hearts, THEN our outward actions should look exactly like what is happening inside: the pursuit of holiness internally should be progressively demonstrated outwardly. This is something we cannot get from the life of Christ in Scripture: what “progressing in holiness” looks like. Why? Because he was perfectly holy from all eternity. The Saints OTOH, often started out as sinners much like ourselves and they progressively became dead to themselves and alive in Christ. We can both relate and emulate their example in a way we kinda cant do with Christs life.
These verses hold a special place for me…Im not sure how they apply to the discussion, however, except that they leave a lot of unanswered questions as to how exactly, for example, in the 21st century as a married woman does the life of Christ manifest itself as a “living sacrifice”? Must it climb a cross and be crucified like Christ? Not exactly, as we both know, but there is a woman right now living a life consumed by the love of God that will help paint a slightly clearer picture than we would get from Scripture alone…and it will inspire another to follow Him. That is the whole point…
Blessings!
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Fair_Lady
Guest
It is God who separates the “sheep” from the “goats”. Perhaps you mean “identify” instead of “separate”? Even for mere mortal men to definitively “identify” who all made it the heaven, I don’t believe can be done with 100% accuracy and I very much doubt that it should be attempted.
To a degree, we will “know them by their fruits”. But no one knows the heart of each person the way God knows the heart. Again, for that reason, I don’t think that mere mortal men should go monkeying around in God’s business, attempting to identify who is in heaven. He alone knows exactly who is in heaven. Man does not.
My answer is what does God say about it in His word? Here is some instruction for us that should help us on this very subject:
“13 Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance; 15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”
17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.” 1 Peter 1: 13 - 21
I just want to clarify that I’m not saying that there is no value in observing and learning from the examples of Godly people set. For examples, if we see our next door neighbour, coworker or a family member living a life of obedient faithfulness before God, we can learn from that and gain great encouragement from them in our own lives. Or if we read stories of people who lived and died in Christ, we are blessed by those stories too.
You underestimate the value of what has been recorded for us about the life of Jesus while He was here. His circumstances were not our circumstances, but we can, with the grace of God, be as He was: faithful, kind, gentle, loving, righteous, obedient to God, exhibit righteous anger and indignation, humble…(the list could go on). Amazingly and importantly, Jesus was tempted as we are, yet He remained without sin:
“14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.” Hebrews 4:14 - 16
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The Holy Spirit had His hand in the compilation and preservation of scripture. I am certainly not an expert in Biliology, but I would think that a main focus on which texts should be included in what we know of as the Bible today would have been which writings were inspired by God. That is because while God used man to write the scriptures, they were actually inspired by God.
“16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.” 2 Timothy 3:16-17
Your post raised a lot of important issues and this is where I need to leave off for now. More later…
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Zooey
Guest
Fair Lady:
separated from God? Until we die???
And just
** where** would that leave the Communion of the Saints???
And how is Jesus going to return with His bride, if, according to you, His bride is still here on earth…andseparated from God???
I dunno…Seems to me like you have the saints being dead, alive, asleep, and awake all at the same time.uch:
Its enough to make this old lady as :hypno:dizzy as a hound pup…I believe I will stick with
“we believe in the communion of the saints”.
So…We are all
separated from God? Until we die???And just
** where** would that leave the Communion of the Saints???And how is Jesus going to return with His bride, if, according to you, His bride is still here on earth…and
separated from God???I dunno…Seems to me like you have the saints being dead, alive, asleep, and awake all at the same time.
uch:Its enough to make this old lady as :hypno:dizzy as a hound pup…I believe I will stick with
“we believe in the communion of the saints”.
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Philthy
Guest
Unless, of course, the “holy spirit has his hand in it”, as you will say later.
Unless, of course, God reveals something to us regarding a person.
My answer is what does God say about it in His word? Here is some instruction for us that should help us on this very subject:
Im sorry, but it is one thing to list ideals - be sober, have hope, be holy, conduct yourself in fear, etc and quite another to have an example of how to live these ideals. Christ is certainly one example, but as we explore below, his life was very different from most of ours.
Of course, but you never actually know - according to your testimony above - that someone “lived and died in Christ”, because if they did, they would in Heaven and you prefaced all of your comments with the comment that we cannot identify those who are in Heaven.
No I dont.
Of course we can, having the example of a Saint only clarifies what those virtures look like in our lives and that they can in fact be lived by us.
True, but irrelevant to the topic.
That is a very interesting statement - where did you get it from? As it turns out, what you and I call “Scripture” was given to us by men - 300 years after it was written. Men whom we have to assume were infallibly led by the holy Spirit. Not one original manuscript to Scripture remains - all we have are copies of copies. Their successors are the same men who proclaim Saints today and who defend that Apostolic faith handed on from the very beginning.
Well you need to become one and fast. If you are going to base your entire theology on the “Bible”, then you need to be sure that it is the word of God, the whole word of God and nothing but the word of God. It sounds like you are trusting others for that at the current time. Where, exactly, did we get the Bible? When, exactly, did it happen?
I agree with this 100%, but there remains a few problems: does this verse tell us that any of the writings we consider Scripture are actually Scripture? We could start with 2Tim, for example. Is it Scripture? How, exactly, do we know? When, exactly, did we find out? Who, exactly, revealed it to us? The truth is, apart from an earthly authority to reveal Scripture to us we simply don’t know.
In addition, it turns out that this reference is to the OT Scriptures - those are the ones Timothy knew from his youth, since the NT hadnt been written.
Blessings!
F
Fair_Lady
Guest
We can go round and round with this, but the Bible doesn’t support the whole thing about canonization of the saints, its purpose and everything else that comes into play.
Again, I too believe that we can learn from and take encouragement by the examples set before us. In my mind, Jesus is the ultimate example. But the one point that I want to make is that even more important than imitating the good lives of others is the renewing of our minds and allowing God to change us from the inside out by His grace. As a result of what’s happening inside, our actions will change too. That’s why I posted the verses from Romans 12 earlier.
It’s one thing to take encouragement and learn from lives well lived before the Lord and another thing to judge whether they are in heaven or hell.
Jesus was tempted as we are and yet He remained sinless. Irrelevant as an example to us? I don’t think so. But it does bring out the fact that He is ultimately above all saints and there isn’t a saint that can match that. Another good reason not to put a saint on too high a pedestal.
"For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you." 1 Peter 1"24-25
Gotta run…will be back later. Have a good day.
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