Can't Animals Abuse Humans Too?

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I’m putting this in the Popular Media section because the themes I’m about to explore are often found in a lot of movies, games, and books where mankind is in a constant fight for survival.

I’m not talking about zombie apocalypses or the breakdown of society. I’m simply talking about fictional scenarios where man is often at risk from abuse from particularly dangerous and powerful animals. In these works of fiction, said animals are presented as stronger, fiercer, and if left uncontrolled, can wind up devouring humanity.

Whether it’s a world dominated by dragons and wyverns to a futuristic version of our world under constant attack by interdimensional kaiju, these are scenarios where animals are a threat to human existence.

In contrast, we humans are constantly depicted as the consumers of this world. We’ve indeed wiped out several species to extinction and it’s a tragedy. It is indeed, as our Pope says, “a slap in the face of nature.”

My concern is this though, does our abuse take away the fact that man has a right to hunt lest he be the one hunted?

See, when I read these big monster stories, I actually see the beasts reducing man back to the historical period where we indeed had to fight other animals for survival. We dominated them in due time, just as the good guys finally dominate and slay the big, bad scaly menace in your typical dungeon. That doesn’t mean that there wasn’t a point in history where animals were a serious threat to our survival as a species.

This is often my main punchline to the animal rights camp. They think animals as cuddly, helpless critters without any means of defense. In that sense, I actually have more respect for beasts than they have. I know that there was once a time where animals could easily trample our fragile bones, crush our skulls, and impale us easily upon their tusks.

Contrary to what they believe, plenty animals don’t care for anything but their hardwired instinct for survival. They will kill us, not so much for revenge but simply because we’re perceived as either a territorial threat or their next munchie.

Rabbits don’t care if they overpopulate. Lions don’t care if they’re eating an elephant or an elderly tribesman. It’s usually us humans who end up learning about how these all interact and how we can hurt or help the balance of nature.

Thus, going back to the thread title, why is it that some believe animals can never abuse humans as badly as we have?
 
Thus, going back to the thread title, why is it that some believe animals can never abuse humans as badly as we have?
You already answered this yourself:
Contrary to what they believe, plenty animals don’t care for anything but their hardwired instinct for survival.
If all that animals have is a “hardwired instinct for survival”, then they don’t have free will, hence their culpability cannot meaningfully be compared to the culpability of an agent who has free will.
 
I’m putting this in the Popular Media section because the themes I’m about to explore are often found in a lot of movies, games, and books where mankind is in a constant fight for survival.

I’m not talking about zombie apocalypses or the breakdown of society. I’m simply talking about fictional scenarios where man is often at risk from abuse from particularly dangerous and powerful animals. In these works of fiction, said animals are presented as stronger, fiercer, and if left uncontrolled, can wind up devouring humanity.

Whether it’s a world dominated by dragons and wyverns to a futuristic version of our world under constant attack by interdimensional kaiju, these are scenarios where animals are a threat to human existence.

In contrast, we humans are constantly depicted as the consumers of this world. We’ve indeed wiped out several species to extinction and it’s a tragedy. It is indeed, as our Pope says, “a slap in the face of nature.”

My concern is this though, does our abuse take away the fact that man has a right to hunt lest he be the one hunted?

See, when I read these big monster stories, I actually see the beasts reducing man back to the historical period where we indeed had to fight other animals for survival. We dominated them in due time, just as the good guys finally dominate and slay the big, bad scaly menace in your typical dungeon. That doesn’t mean that there wasn’t a point in history where animals were a serious threat to our survival as a species.

This is often my main punchline to the animal rights camp. They think animals as cuddly, helpless critters without any means of defense. In that sense, I actually have more respect for beasts than they have. I know that there was once a time where animals could easily trample our fragile bones, crush our skulls, and impale us easily upon their tusks.

Contrary to what they believe, plenty animals don’t care for anything but their hardwired instinct for survival. They will kill us, not so much for revenge but simply because we’re perceived as either a territorial threat or their next munchie.

Rabbits don’t care if they overpopulate. Lions don’t care if they’re eating an elephant or an elderly tribesman. It’s usually us humans who end up learning about how these all interact and how we can hurt or help the balance of nature.

Thus, going back to the thread title, why is it that some believe animals can never abuse humans as badly as we have?
My two cats abuse me all the time, taking advantage of my easy going nature :D. They are now spoiled rotten. It is their house, they just tolerate me - as long as I keep the dinner dish full and the water bowl filled, and the heat on.

Linus2nd
 
My two cats abuse me all the time, taking advantage of my easy going nature :D.
But admit it - you love that “abuse”! 🙂

Time and again I wake up in the morning all broken and tired, because the cat - who sleeps on my bed - pushed me to the side with barely any blanket left for me.
 
But admit it - you love that “abuse”! 🙂

Time and again I wake up in the morning all broken and tired, because the cat - who sleeps on my bed - pushed me to the side with barely any blanket left for me.
And isn’t it nice when they let you sit in their chair! 😃 But when you don’t listen to them they will whine and whine until you get up and open the door!

Linus2nd
 
I’m putting this in the Popular Media section because the themes I’m about to explore are often found in a lot of movies, games, and books where mankind is in a constant fight for survival.

I’m not talking about zombie apocalypses or the breakdown of society. I’m simply talking about fictional scenarios where man is often at risk from abuse from particularly dangerous and powerful animals. In these works of fiction, said animals are presented as stronger, fiercer, and if left uncontrolled, can wind up devouring humanity.

Whether it’s a world dominated by dragons and wyverns to a futuristic version of our world under constant attack by interdimensional kaiju, these are scenarios where animals are a threat to human existence.

In contrast, we humans are constantly depicted as the consumers of this world. We’ve indeed wiped out several species to extinction and it’s a tragedy. It is indeed, as our Pope says, “a slap in the face of nature.”

My concern is this though, does our abuse take away the fact that man has a right to hunt lest he be the one hunted?

See, when I read these big monster stories, I actually see the beasts reducing man back to the historical period where we indeed had to fight other animals for survival. We dominated them in due time, just as the good guys finally dominate and slay the big, bad scaly menace in your typical dungeon. That doesn’t mean that there wasn’t a point in history where animals were a serious threat to our survival as a species.

This is often my main punchline to the animal rights camp. They think animals as cuddly, helpless critters without any means of defense. In that sense, I actually have more respect for beasts than they have. I know that there was once a time where animals could easily trample our fragile bones, crush our skulls, and impale us easily upon their tusks.

Contrary to what they believe, plenty animals don’t care for anything but their hardwired instinct for survival. They will kill us, not so much for revenge but simply because we’re perceived as either a territorial threat or their next munchie.

Rabbits don’t care if they overpopulate. Lions don’t care if they’re eating an elephant or an elderly tribesman. It’s usually us humans who end up learning about how these all interact and how we can hurt or help the balance of nature.

Thus, going back to the thread title, why is it that some believe animals can never abuse humans as badly as we have?
My take: It’s not so much an issue now (there aren’t many species that threaten us in such a way, though in our early history there might have been), but man does have dominion over nature, and so does have the right to change nature to be less dangerous to him. Wanton destruction of nature to no purpose is bad in principle, but eliminating the threat posed by another species is not. So it is possible for animals to be in such away as to “abuse” us (there would be no moral culpability, of course, but they could be doing excessive harm to us as a species), even if it is no longer the norm. And in such a case, we’d have the right to fix that.

Of course, it may be that there is a better way to eliminate this threat than by exterminating the species (especially as exterminating a species can have unforeseen consequences that might be undesirable). But in the hypothetical case of (non-person) dragons or similar that are killing large amounts of humans, causing their (near) extinction would not, I think, be a bad thing.

Unnecessary destruction through greed or sloppiness (which is distinct from measured destruction caused by legitimate use) is bad, but I don’t think modification for our safety that involves some measured destruction would be bad. (There are a few species of bacteria and the like that I think we’d probably all like to see go away, for example. Of course, bacteria and parasites are not especially cuddly, which may explain why there’s not a PETINBT (Invisible Nasty Bug Things).)

And all of that is dependent only on the fact that humans are persons and the other animals around are not. So while we can and have abused nature, we are still the only persons around, and so still retain the right to control it - our (as a species) past abuse cannot remove that right from the species (you could argue that some individuals have forfeited their right to participate in such decisions on any level beyond “that tiger is trying to eat me, I will now shoot it” by their irresponsible actions, but even if so, that would not extend to the rest of our species), though it should teach us to be more careful with it in the future so as to avoid more abuse.
 
I sold one of my Boer goats because she left incriminating hoof marks on my forehead every time i tried to trim her hooves. I was trying to be a good shepherd to her but she never appreciated it and she always left me flat on my back in goat berries. :sad_yes:
 
My two cats abuse me all the time, taking advantage of my easy going nature :D. They are now spoiled rotten. It is their house, they just tolerate me - as long as I keep the dinner dish full and the water bowl filled, and the heat on.

Linus2nd
My poor old Kitty died 3 years ago, and I’m still finding old hairballs he left for me under and behind the furniture! Talk about abuse! :mad: But, of course I know there was no ill-will behind it, and the same goes for the shark who bites me in the ocean, or the bee who stings me in the yard. They are just following instinct, so there is no real abuse.
 
My two cats abuse me all the time, taking advantage of my easy going nature :D. They are now spoiled rotten. It is their house, they just tolerate me - as long as I keep the dinner dish full and the water bowl filled, and the heat on.

Linus2nd
I see an opening for a bestselling self help book here: Bad Kitties and the Men Who Love Them.
 
‘Abuse’ implies an intelligence that animals do not have.
This argument can fall on itself in two ways:
  1. As Iron Donkey pointed out, lack of culpability doesn’t do much to change the facts. Even if it does give a technical no to the question in my OP, it really is just an insufficient response via technicality. It kind of misses the point of what I’m saying about the human side of the animal abuse issue. So what if they lack the sentience and that it reduces their culpability? That still doesn’t take away our responsibility as the sentient party to morally defend our own species. Furthermore, wouldn’t that just give us all the more right to fight for our own survival over that of species that are becoming considerably harmful to the balance of nature? (On that note, one could even say that our dominion over nature makes us the end-all, be-all arbiters of nature’s balance. A weighty responsibility but it should also have its share of privileges and more rights.)
  2. P.E.T.A. and its sympathizers’ only response to the above is to ascribe the same sentience and soul to animals. They even go as far as to consider the above viewpoint as sugarcoated ‘speciesm.’ That however, means both positions are canceling each other out. Because if we were to ascribe the same attributes to animals, that which governs human culpability will apply them. This turns the question to an all-astounding, “YES!” because these supposedly sentient creatures will have as much power in terms of anatomical arms to wipe homo sapiens off their dinner plate. (Oh but they all shudder at the thought of putting rabid man eaters on trial. 🤷)
 
This argument can fall on itself in two ways:
  1. As Iron Donkey pointed out, lack of culpability doesn’t do much to change the facts. Even if it does give a technical no to the question in my OP, it really is just an insufficient response via technicality. It kind of misses the point of what I’m saying about the human side of the animal abuse issue. So what if they lack the sentience and that it reduces their culpability? That still doesn’t take away our responsibility as the sentient party to morally defend our own species. Furthermore, wouldn’t that just give us all the more right to fight for our own survival over that of species that are becoming considerably harmful to the balance of nature? (On that note, one could even say that our dominion over nature makes us the end-all, be-all arbiters of nature’s balance. A weighty responsibility but it should also have its share of privileges and more rights.)
  2. P.E.T.A. and its sympathizers’ only response to the above is to ascribe the same sentience and soul to animals. They even go as far as to consider the above viewpoint as sugarcoated ‘speciesm.’ That however, means both positions are canceling each other out. Because if we were to ascribe the same attributes to animals, that which governs human culpability will apply them. This turns the question to an all-astounding, “YES!” because these supposedly sentient creatures will have as much power in terms of anatomical arms to wipe homo sapiens off their dinner plate. (Oh but they all shudder at the thought of putting rabid man eaters on trial. 🤷)
I am arguing animals have NO culpability.
Not reduced.

They haven’t the intelligence to abuse anyone or anything.
It is not a technical point. It is simply the fact.
 
Why do cats paw the floor while or after eating? Mine will keep it up for five minutes or more even though food is still in the bowl.

Linus2nd
 
I am arguing animals have NO culpability.
Not reduced.

They haven’t the intelligence to abuse anyone or anything.
It is not a technical point. It is simply the fact.
Tomato, tomahto. You’re missing the point. What I’m saying is that whatever gives them that culpability is what animal rights advocates actively argue for. Both positions are practically structure to negate each other! 🤷
 
It’s said that animals deserve moral consideration (some sort of animal rights, however much is a question that’s debated) but lack moral autonomy. That is, animals seem to lack the ability to act as a moral agent - considering right and/or wrong. Much like tiny babies aren’t able to consider right and wrong. If a toddler breaks something, we teach it not to, but no one should hold it against the toddler. It has no way of acting in a morally responsible way that (most) adults can. Likewise, if a buffalo smashes my car, he’s not -abusing- me. He’s just being a buffalo.

Secondly, if mankind has to hunt, or otherwise harm animal species for a truly good reason, no one says that it’s animal abuse. (Well, some people do. But not the general population or the majority of environmental ethicists that I’ve read)
 
Animals behave by instinct. If frightened, trapped or defending themselves or their young, they will do what it takes until killed, or the attacker is killed. Animals do not have human cognition.

Ed
 
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