Can't annulment tribunals dissolve valid marriages?

  • Thread starter Thread starter jdconvert
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Hello James,
You dropped the dreaded “uncharitable” bomb on my sister there. Our Holy Father has shined His brilliant light on what is charitable verses uncharitable. You could rightly label my sister’s comment “uncharitable” if it wasn’t founded and grounded and pounded in truth:) Sadly, however, high rates of Rotal reversals of American tribunal decisions and several very strong messages from the last few Popes are very good evidence that there are abuses.

It would be “uncharitable” of my sister there to put her head in the sand and pretend they do not exist.
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
 
Hello James,
You dropped the dreaded “uncharitable” bomb on my sister there. Our Holy Father has shined His brilliant light on what is charitable verses uncharitable. You could rightly label my sister’s comment “uncharitable” if it wasn’t founded and grounded and pounded in truth:) Sadly, however, high rates of Rotal reversals of American tribunal decisions and several very strong messages from the last few Popes are very good evidence that there are abuses.

It would be “uncharitable” of my sister there to put her head in the sand and pretend they do not exist.
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
Perhaps - but what I objected to was the accusations that “errors are probably abuses”.
And error is usually unintentional - an abuse is intentional. They are vastly different things and it is highly uncharitable to declare that these people, charged with a difficult and delicate task are deliberately subverting the system.

Perhaps there are abuses…Perhaps what is needed is a comprehensive review of the whole system from Pre-Cana through Marriage counseling to the Marriage tribunal process…But so far in spite of the, “high rates of Rotal reversals of American tribunal decisions and several very strong messages from the last few Popes”…The Vatican does not seem inclined to undertake the sort of investigation it has - say - with the womens religious…

I just get very tired of the sort of blanket accusations and inflammatory adjectives that I have seen on some of the posts in this thread. One poster even suggested I was not qualified to “defend first marriages” because I have been through the system personally.

There can be no doubt that Catholic marriage in America is in trouble. In America there is MUCH about Catholic life that is in trouble. The solution though , in my humble opinion, does not lie in beating up on the people who have to deal with the mess of 40+ years of poor catechesis and “Spirit of Vatican II” nonsense (of which I am a sad product). Rather the solution lies at the other end starting with stronger catechesis.

I spent many years in Quality Assurance dealing with data analysis and so forth. I can tell you that there is nothing in much of the accusatory and anecdotal remarks on these threads that is of any productive use…
Now - if someone is able to post or link some sort of breakdown of numbers of annulments along with percentages granted or refused on the various grounds etc THEN perhaps we would have something to constructively discuss…Where the problem areas lay and what some of the possible solutions are.
Otherwise it just becomes a spitting contest…

Peace
James
 
Hello James,
Thanks, that makes sense.

Do you find that the majority of petitioners are genuinely seeking to find out whether or not they are truly married?
Or
Are the majority “seeking an annulment?”

Do you see that this difference lies in the heart?

Bryan

LOVE SO AMAZING
 
Whoops… sorry, I would add though that the solution is not only strong Catechesis but also shining a light on what is currently going on in the tribunals. You and my sister there could form a pretty powerful team!

But it all needs to be supported by faithful preaching that divorce (defining it as our Catechism does) is always a “grave offense” and connecting the dots that we should not be receiving the Blessed Sacrament while persisting in this grave manifest sin.

Bryan

LOVE SO AMAZING
 
Hello James,
Thanks, that makes sense.
Thanks
Do you find that the majority of petitioners are genuinely seeking to find out whether or not they are truly married?
Or
Are the majority “seeking an annulment?”
Do you see that this difference lies in the heart?
LOVE SO AMAZING
I believe that the majority are seeking an annulment from what the genuinely believe was an invalid marriage…If this was not important to them, they would not bother to apply…So yes they are truly seeking to find out if they are truly married in the eyes of the Church.
Whoops… sorry, I would add though that the solution is not only strong Catechesis but also shining a light on what is currently going on in the tribunals.
To an extent I agree with this. however one must be careful about “shining the light” since the privacy of the petitioners cases needs to be respected. I seem to recall some time back on a similar thread we actually DID get into some numbers…and it was really quite interesting…I wonder if I could find that thread…
You and my sister there could form a pretty powerful team!
Not a task that I am qualified to take on I’m afraid…
But it all needs to be supported by faithful preaching that divorce (defining it as our Catechism does) is always a “grave offense” and connecting the dots that we should not be receiving the Blessed Sacrament while persisting in this grave manifest sin.
AS I said on the other thread…

Catechesis - Catechesis - CATECHESIS.

Peace
James
 
No, we will know it has ended when there are fewer than 400 declarations of nullity THE WORLD OVER, as there were before this madness took hold. Then we will know that Catholics once again take seriously the teachings of the Church.

Sure, then it will end when there are fewer liars and people that make errors.

I’ll go for that! 🙂 But “errors” are probably “abuses.”
Also the number 400 seems to be absolute not relative. The Catholic population worldwide has grown greatly between 1950 and 2008.
437 million Catholics in 1950
1.66 billion Catholics in 2008
 
I would like to have an adequate solution to my conundrum, as it is a big stumbling block for me in accepting the Catholic Church is the Church that Christ founded.
Greetings, jdconvert! Have you been following these posts? I’m sure I speak for more than myself in wondering if you have had any of your quandaries satisfied by our replies?

In any event, for yourself and/or others reading these threads, the following quotes from the USCCB and another reliable Catholic source may prove helpful.

I believe the Bible when it says he who divorces and marries another commits adultery, as we see in Mark 10:1-12 and Luke 16:18. But isn’t Jesus leaving a loophole when he says in Matthew 19:9 “except for unchastity”?

What may appear as a loophole is a consequence of misinterpretation or mistranslation. The King James Version and others translate the passage into English words that appear to say fornication, unchastity, or adultery are exceptions that allow a divorce.
The constant teaching of the Church has been that a valid sacramental marriage can not be broken, even if one party sins. As Matthews 19:6 says, “Therefore, what God has joined together, no human being must separate.” Biblical scholars, such as J. Bonsirven, have pointed out that the Greek word that is pivotal here is “porneia,” which means unlawful sexual intercourse. The Gospel does not use the Greek word “moicheia,” which is the ordinary Greek word for adultery.
The intent appears to be to distinguish a true marriage from concubinage. What is being said is that if a man and a woman are in fact married, the bond is inseparable. But if they are not married, just “living together,” then there is no lawful marriage and there can be a separation or annulment. The wording of the New American Bible for Matthew 19:9 is a translation that gives us this sense.

newadvent.org/library/almanac_thisrock92.htm

And…
  • [5:31–32] See Dt 24:1–5. The Old Testament commandment that a bill of divorce be given to the woman assumes the legitimacy of divorce itself. It is this that Jesus denies. (Unless the marriage is unlawful): this “exceptive clause,” as it is often called, occurs also in Mt 19:9, where the Greek is slightly different. There are other sayings of Jesus about divorce that prohibit it absolutely (see Mk 10:11–12; Lk 16:18; cf. 1 Cor 7:10, 11b), and most scholars agree that they represent the stand of Jesus. Matthew’s “exceptive clauses” are understood by some as a modification of the absolute prohibition. It seems, however, that the unlawfulness that Matthew gives as a reason why a marriage must be broken refers to a situation peculiar to his community: the violation of Mosaic law forbidding marriage between persons of certain blood and/or legal relationship (Lv 18:6–18). Marriages of that sort were regarded as incest (porneia), but some rabbis allowed Gentile converts to Judaism who had contracted such marriages to remain in them. Matthew’s “exceptive clause” is against such permissiveness for Gentile converts to Christianity; cf. the similar prohibition of porneia in Acts 15:20, 29. In this interpretation, the clause constitutes no exception to the absolute prohibition of divorce when the marriage is lawful.
usccb.org/bible/mt/5:31

Thus, the prior two sources prove the consistency of the Roman Catholic Church in teaching against divorce. As others have noted, there is much more that could be done to reinforce these dogmas of the Church among the faithful.

A footnote to jdconvert: Don’t expect to become “sinless” when/if you finally decide to become a baptized Catholic! But DO EXPECT untold graces from Her sacraments to aid and assist you in seeking to learn holiness–marriage being one of those sacraments. As-a-matter-of-fact: Why wait to be baptized?
 
Also the number 400 seems to be absolute not relative. The Catholic population worldwide has grown greatly between 1950 and 2008.
437 million Catholics in 1950
1.66 billion Catholics in 2008

Are you saying that the 10,000% increase in declarations of nullity in the U.S. are to be expected due to the increase in the Catholic population since the 1970s? The number 400 is from 1968 and includes the whole world.

If you do the math and show me that 40,000 declarations of nullity in the U.S. are no different from 400 the world over, adjusting for population increase, I will see your argument. I think.

However, of those 1.66 billion, how many believe in Catholic teachings? Or are they just wearing the label like the 73% who do not believe in the Real Presence?
 
To anyone truly interested in trying to understand the various issues involved…I recommend THIS ARTICLE. It’s older but gives a wonderfully balanced assessment…Well worth the read - including the footnotes. 👍

Peace
James
 
Also the number 400 seems to be absolute not relative. The Catholic population worldwide has grown greatly between 1950 and 2008.
437 million Catholics in 1950
1.66 billion Catholics in 2008

Are you saying that the 10,000% increase in declarations of nullity in the U.S. are to be expected due to the increase in the Catholic population since the 1970s? The number 400 is from 1968 and includes the whole world.

If you do the math and show me that 40,000 declarations of nullity in the U.S. are no different from 400 the world over, adjusting for population increase, I will see your argument. I think.
Trying to pin a number on what is an acceptable level is not really productive. Besides the population differences, many things have changed since the 1950s. There are more mixed marriages, for example and that leads to more possibilities for lack of form cases. There have been huge advances in psychology and psychiatry.

Just one example: an abused wife. In the “old” days, it would have been very hard to demonstrate that there was a problem before the marriage if abuse starts a number of years in. Now that we know more about the psychology of spouse abuse, it is possible to look at indicators that were present at the time of the marriage that, if recognized, would have prevented the union.
However, of those 1.66 billion, how many believe in Catholic teachings?
I think that if you look at Catholics world-wide, you would find that virtually all of them believe or have believed in Church teaching. It’s a sad fact that many Catholics come in and out in terms of their faithfullness to Church teachings. If a young person is “out” when they are contemplating marriage, he/she may never have had any pre-cana or in-depth knowledge about what the Church teaches regarding marriage.

Many of those Catholics undergoing tribunal processes weren’t even Catholic when they married and civilly divorced. Yet, they still need to investigate the prior bond before marrying as a Catholic. These individuals certainly didn’t believe in the Church’s teachings at the time of their marriage.

I don’t doubt that there may be annullments granted that would be overturned if appealed. But it is not valid to want annulment numbers to go back to 1950 standards when everything else has changed.
 
I have read the article by Edward Peters.

I recommend others; for example, “Marriage Annulments and Gobbledygook” by Msgr. Clarence Hettinger: marysadvocates.org/syllabus/Gobbledygook.pdf

Also “Creative Avenues to Remarriage After Divorce” by Hettinger: ewtn.com/library/MARRIAGE/REMARDIV.TXT

And “The Nullity of Marriage for Incapacity to Fulfill the Essential Obligations of Marriage,” by Edward Egan: marysadvocates.org/syllabus/EganIncapacity.html

And there is Professor Robert Vasoli’s excellent book What God Has Joined Together.
 
“I don’t doubt that there may be annullments granted that would be overturned if appealed.”

This is all you really need to say. So there are declarations of nullity that are invalid. Probably tens of thousands. And I know some of you will attack me for saying that, but I don’t know of one that is justified.

Surely not the one that got me started investigating what is going on: My sister-in-law who was cruelly divorced and coldbloddedly declared null against her will and knowledge that her marriage was as valid as any.

Those psychological reasons that we know so much about today are truly revealing: like the guy who testified that his wife showed the baby the attention that she used to show him, and her witness arguing that she never liked any of the gifts that he gave her. You will find that silliness in Judging Invalidity by Fr. Lawrence G. Wrenn, pp. 16 and 17.

But many think it not silly, only reasonable. Well, we will differ until some saint, martyr, pope, father, doctor of the Church comes and converts or until fire falls from the sky, or . . . . I argue that we have pretty much lost our Church. To pretend otherwise is to believe in fairy tales.
 
“I don’t doubt that there may be annullments granted that would be overturned if appealed.”

This is all you really need to say. So there are declarations of nullity that are invalid. Probably tens of thousands. And I know some of you will attack me for saying that, but I don’t know of one that is justified. …
Hello,

You can’t call an overturned decision “invalid.” Even the Roman Rota (different Judges, of course) overturns its own decisions at times. Anyway, how many cases do you know about? How do you know about them? I tend to be pretty strict but in my own work it’s not hard to find cases where a declaration of nullity is justified, in my opinion.

Dan
 
I have read the article by Edward Peters.

I recommend others; for example, “Marriage Annulments and Gobbledygook” by Msgr. Clarence Hettinger: marysadvocates.org/syllabus/Gobbledygook.pdf

Also “Creative Avenues to Remarriage After Divorce” by Hettinger: ewtn.com/library/MARRIAGE/REMARDIV.TXT

And “The Nullity of Marriage for Incapacity to Fulfill the Essential Obligations of Marriage,” by Edward Egan: marysadvocates.org/syllabus/EganIncapacity.html

And there is Professor Robert Vasoli’s excellent book What God Has Joined Together.
Thanks for the links Sharelle - I’ll try to get to them as I am able…Mainly I’m looking for actual usable data…I hope they contain some…

Peace
James
 
“I don’t doubt that there may be annullments granted that would be overturned if appealed.”

This is all you really need to say. So there are declarations of nullity that are invalid. Probably tens of thousands. And I know some of you will attack me for saying that, but I don’t know of one that is justified.
I have no intention of attacking you dear sister in Christ. It is obvious that this is a raw and touchy subject for you.

That said though your statement above is quite incorrect. The Vatican established the principles, the rules, the procedures and practices under which the Tribunals operate. It is the Vatican who has established that two courts review the case and that they must agree. It is the Vatican who established then at that point it is up to the participants whether to appeal the decision to Rome or not.
So - If a decision is honestly and sincerely arrived at, reviewed by the second court just as honestly and sincerely then the decree issued is valid. When the participants accept the decree, they (who can appeal and have a responsibility to do so if they feel there is something wrong) accept it’s validity. This is ALL in accordance with the system as established by Christ’s Church.
Surely not the one that got me started investigating what is going on: My sister-in-law who was cruelly divorced and coldbloddedly declared null against her will and knowledge that her marriage was as valid as any.
So - how is her appeal to Rome going?

Peace
James
 
Sharelle,

If you want to quote someone, there’s a quote function. Putting others’ words inside your post is getting confusing the further we are into this thread.
40.png
Sharelle:
Corki said:
“I don’t doubt that there may be annullments granted that would be overturned if appealed.”
This is all you really need to say. So there are declarations of nullity that are invalid. Probably tens of thousands. And I know some of you will attack me for saying that, but I don’t know of one that is justified.

I know several perfectly legitimate cases that went to the tribunal. One was a couple that permenantly intened to exclude children from the marriage; another was a couple where the huband was an alcoholic and hid the fact from his wife until after they were married (actually two of the cases I know personally are like this); and I know probably close to a dozen couples who had lack of form cases - Catholics who married outside of the Church.

I don’t think it is correct to say that the declaration of nullity is invalid. It, like the marriage itself, enjoys the force of the law. But the declaration is not infallible. The process can always be improved.
 
Also the number 400 seems to be absolute not relative. The Catholic population worldwide has grown greatly between 1950 and 2008.
437 million Catholics in 1950
1.66 billion Catholics in 2008

Are you saying that the 10,000% increase in declarations of nullity in the U.S. are to be expected due to the increase in the Catholic population since the 1970s? The number 400 is from 1968 and includes the whole world.

If you do the math and show me that 40,000 declarations of nullity in the U.S. are no different from 400 the world over, adjusting for population increase, I will see your argument. I think.

However, of those 1.66 billion, how many believe in Catholic teachings? Or are they just wearing the label like the 73% who do not believe in the Real Presence?
It will not have accuracy without standard statistical methods. You can draw lots of wrong conclusions without accuracy. One could look at various times but then not be able to compare accurately over time.
 
Surely not the one that got me started investigating what is going on: My sister-in-law who was cruelly divorced and coldbloddedly declared null against her will and knowledge that her marriage was as valid as any.
Pardon, where did you obtain your JCL? And is your sister able to read her ex’s mind?
 
Sharelle,

If you want to quote someone, there’s a quote function. Putting others’ words inside your post is getting confusing the further we are into this thread.

I know several perfectly legitimate cases that went to the tribunal. One was a couple that permenantly intened to exclude children from the marriage; another was a couple where the huband was an alcoholic and hid the fact from his wife until after they were married (actually two of the cases I know personally are like this); and I know probably close to a dozen couples who had lack of form cases - Catholics who married outside of the Church.

I don’t think it is correct to say that the declaration of nullity is invalid. It, like the marriage itself, enjoys the force of the law. But the declaration is not infallible. The process can always be improved.
These people do not need declarations of nullity; they need sermons on sin, death, and hell because that is where they are going: exclude children–contraception, abortion, sterilization; alcoholism (which is rarely a ground for nullity)–drunkenness (how could she not know? Marrying outside the Church is a mortal sin for a baptized Catholic.

If these examples are what someone means by catechesis, he is right.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top