Can't chant, can't speak English? Pope says it's because he's tone-deaf

  • Thread starter Thread starter ProVobis
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I like the part about his “shameless old uncle”, it seems everyone has one of those somewhere in the family
 
I don’t get why being tone-deaf would affect one’s comprehension of English more than other languages? With a tonal language like Chinese, I could see that, but why English?

Aside: It makes sense that he only uses Italian in public addresses. We can always get translations, plus, if he addresses too many language groups the message will grow shorter.
 
Ad_Orientem said:
I don’t get why being tone-deaf would affect one’s comprehension of English more than other languages? With a tonal language like Chinese, I could see that, but why English?
Click to expand...
In English, it seems that there are no real rules for pronunciation. Each word has its own, which has to be learned. For example, the “ough” has like seven different prounuciations. And then all those homophones. I know foreigners have a lot of trouble with hearing the words as opposed to reading them.
 
ProVobis said:
In English, it seems that there are no real rules for pronunciation. Each word has its own, which has to be learned. For example, the “ough” has like seven different prounuciations. And then all those homophones. I know foreigners have a lot of trouble with hearing the words as opposed to reading them.
Click to expand...
My mother is 'tone deaf" She got kicked out of school choir back in the 60s, and had to take study hall instead. She also had a speech impediment for a long time, still says a few words wrong (closent instead of closet) and (Ouinge instead of orange). She also has a really hard time sounding words out). So I totally understand, and yes, everyone is very happy when she doesn’t sing real songs (interestingly enough, she had some made up tunes for some of the prayers (Hail Mary, Our Father) and such (Good Morning to you) and while weird and not what we westerners are used to as far as tunes, they were catch and not as bad as one would think for someone who is tone deaf).
 
ProVobis said:
In English, it seems that there are no real rules for pronunciation. Each word has its own, which has to be learned. For example, the “ough” has like seven different prounuciations. And then all those homophones. I know foreigners have a lot of trouble with hearing the words as opposed to reading them.
Click to expand...
Those of us who have grown up speaking English are unaware of the tonal anomalies of our language.

I had a mother assure me that she never knew which ‘b’ sound to use in a word - I was totally confused, I’m accustomed to second language speakers having difficulty with ‘c’ and ‘k’, but ‘b’? Unless it’s in the context of b/d confusion. She went on to explain that she couldn’t distinguish ‘b’ from ‘p’ (must use the phonic sound, not letter name) - I have no difficulty with ‘beg’ or ‘peg’, does not mean this is so for someone learning my language.

Vowels also present a unique challenge to non-English speakers as well.
 
[True tone deafness is exceedingly rare.]
Far more common is poor relative pitch. This can be trained into a person, and is a great deal of work. If English was more dependent on pitch slides (we use it to denote questions vs. declarations and to denote stresses on words; there is subtlety possible but pitch slides are not necessary to communicate in English), there would be few of us with pooor relative pitch. I’m a music major, and I’ve noticed that those raised speaking East Asian and Pacific Island don’t have any trouble in sightsinging classes. It may be that they are sons and daughters of hard work and determination, but it may also be the fact that pitch slides actually determine the word being said. In… stink, now I can’t remember. Perhaps Cantonese… the (oo) sound is an entirely different phoneme when it is slid up vs. when it is slid down.
Click to expand...
I am a firm believer that many musical impediments can be cured through the proper training. There are vanishingly few people who simply cannot be taught how to sing, at least passably well, and increase their talent with practice and experience.
Click to expand...
 
Elizium23 said:
[True tone deafness is exceedingly rare.]

I am a firm believer that many musical impediments can be cured through the proper training. There are vanishingly few people who simply cannot be taught how to sing, at least passably well, and increase their talent with practice and experience.
Click to expand...
I am very happy to hear this. Everyone else in my family was blessed with an excellent singing voice. It would be very handy to our family choir if I got with the program and learned to carry a tune! 😛
 
VivienneJ said:
Those of us who have grown up speaking English are unaware of the tonal anomalies of our language.
Click to expand...
Even among native English speakers there are differences. My first language was Polish but I first learned English in the U.K. Then when my family moved to the U.S. I was actually dropped three grades in reading to “get up to speed.” (Good thing I beat them in math at least.)

Most people don’t even know a billion is counted differently in the two countries. And how many people take a bath when they need to go to the bathroom? U.S. English is weird. 🙂
 
Mrs_Sally said:
I am very happy to hear this. Everyone else in my family was blessed with an excellent singing voice. It would be very handy to our family choir if I got with the program and learned to carry a tune! 😛
Click to expand...
I thought the best singers sing Italian operas. 🙂
 
ProVobis said:
Even among native English speakers there are differences. My first language was Polish but I first learned English in the U.K. Then when my family moved to the U.S. I was actually dropped three grades in reading to “get up to speed.” (Good thing I beat them in math at least.)

Most people don’t even know a billion is counted differently in the two countries. And how many people take a bath when they need to go to the bathroom? U.S. English is weird. 🙂
Click to expand...
Oh, ProVobis, don’t get me started on regional English.

Where I come from I put petrol in my car, put my luggage in the boot of the car, check for water in the radiator by opening the bonnet and stop my car at the red robot. - And that is just one small sampling.

Talking about what happens in the ‘bathroom’ I learned a new one at the end of last year. A child’s nanny told me the child wanted the ‘CR’ 🤷 ‘the comfort room’ :confused: Oh :newidea: down the corridor, turn left.
 
Elizium23 said:
[True tone deafness is exceedingly rare.]

I am a firm believer that many musical impediments can be cured through the proper training. There are vanishingly few people who simply cannot be taught how to sing, at least passably well, and increase their talent with practice and experience.
Click to expand...
I bet I could shake your faith in that belief Elizium :D.

I would love love love it if I could sing ‘passably well’ as that would be an almost unbelievable improvement on the current situation but sadly I don’t see it ever happening!
 
ProVobis said:
. . . no real rules for pronunciation . . .
Click to expand...
Makes sense. I haven’t studied enough languages to know that most of them (or most of the ones the pope knows) have more consistent pronunciation if that’s the case.
 
ProVobis said:
In English, it seems that there are no real rules for pronunciation. Each word has its own, which has to be learned. For example, the “ough” has like seven different prounuciations. And then all those homophones. I know foreigners have a lot of trouble with hearing the words as opposed to reading them.
Click to expand...
I’ve been told the same thing time & time again by foreigners. Native Romance speakers really get thrown by this because their languages are very regular in terms of phonetics. I speak Italian but it isn’t my native tongue, and when I was learning it I realized that it’s the opposite of English: the pronunciation is simple but the grammar is difficult.
 
Ad_Orientem said:
I don’t get why being tone-deaf would affect one’s comprehension of English more than other languages? With a tonal language like Chinese, I could see that, but why English?
Click to expand...
I’m not surprised. I have often read that English is extremely difficult to really master, for a number of reasons. English is, of course, irregular in where it places emphasis within a word, and you can change the meaning of a sentence by the way you emphasize certain words within it. And, of course, regional differences can be confusing. We normally take a sentence as a question, for example, if the tone rises at the end, even if the sentence itself is not worded as a question. “You went to the store. vs You went to the STORE?” But then, lots of U.S. southerners and black northerners characteristically rise the tone at the end of many sentences when they aren’t asking a question at all.

It’s like a lot of things in English: You just have to know in order to know. And if you can’t pick out those peculiarities of tone, it would be hard.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top