Can't forgive Atheist Left

[mathematoons]

I converted from atheism to Catholicism last year. I now see that a lot of what the Atheist Left (a phrase I coined by analogy to the Christian Right–I don’t know if this is a common phrase or not) taught me is nothing more than a bunch of lies. I had already become conservative over the course of my 20s (I’m 27), but I see more clearly than ever how the godless liberals have completely destroyed morality in the Western world with their relativism garbage. I’ve been researching intelligent design science, and I now see that Darwinism is bad science at best and outright deception at worst.

As you can see, I’m angry. I was raised in the secular world and taught to believe in their satanic ways. Now I feel hurt and betrayed by them, and I get upset when I see or hear anything that supports their hateful agenda (that’s what it really is–a hatred of Christianity). I know in my mind that they’re trying to fill the hole that exists in God’s absence, but I’m having some real trouble forgiving them for trying to ruin it for the rest of us and having done so successfully (by undermining traditional morality).

How do you forgive a person or group of people who refuse to repent or even acknowledge that they are doing wrong?

 

[Belle10]

How do you forgive a person or group of people who refuse to repent or even acknowledge that they are doing wrong?

I have the same problem when thinking of those who have had abortions and/or support abortion. :crying:

I’ve talked with my priest about this, and he’s said to give myself time. He said that sometimes it can take a very long time to forgive, years even. He mentioned something that took him years to forgive. The important thing is to recognize that we need to keep trying, even when we don’t want to.

Sometimes I pray that God will help me *want *to forgive. I always confess my lack of mercy toward others when in confession because I do recognize it as a sin, especially since I have such a devotion to the Divine Mercy. I’ve found that sometimes mentioning them specifically during my chaplet of Divine Mercy helps, even if I don’t *feel *like it does, because I know I’m doing the right thing in at the very least trying to forgive them.

 

[catholicm17]

I can see where your coming from, these atheists main mission is to attack and destroy people’s faith, and they have weakened my faith aswell, but i am trying to stay strong.

Why do they attack Christianity and God if they don’t believe in it? In the process hurting people.

As a former atheist mathmetoons, what changed you? Are there any good books that helped you? And are there any links you can point me to that show Darwinism doesnt prove everything?

God Bless

 

[meltzerboy]

I converted from atheism to Catholicism last year. I now see that a lot of what the Atheist Left (a phrase I coined by analogy to the Christian Right–I don’t know if this is a common phrase or not) taught me is nothing more than a bunch of lies. I had already become conservative over the course of my 20s (I’m 27), but I see more clearly than ever how the godless liberals have completely destroyed morality in the Western world with their relativism garbage. I’ve been researching intelligent design science, and I now see that Darwinism is bad science at best and outright deception at worst.

As you can see, I’m angry. I was raised in the secular world and taught to believe in their satanic ways. Now I feel hurt and betrayed by them, and I get upset when I see or hear anything that supports their hateful agenda (that’s what it really is–a hatred of Christianity). I know in my mind that they’re trying to fill the hole that exists in God’s absence, but I’m having some real trouble forgiving them for trying to ruin it for the rest of us and having done so successfully (by undermining traditional morality).

How do you forgive a person or group of people who refuse to repent or even acknowledge that they are doing wrong?

You’re evidently angry and I can understand your strong emotions, a product of both powerful conviction and youth. You see the world in terms of black and white, as evident in your conversion from atheism to Catholicism. I applaud your religious and spiritual transformation. However, you might come to realize there are other points of view that may not fit so neatly into the bipolar dimension of the world you appear to have. So what I’m going to say, you will probably reject for now and it might make you even angrier. All I ask is that you at least think about it, and perhaps, with maturity, you will come to understand. Not all liberals are atheist; and not all conservatives are Christian. People are complicated in their thoughts, opinions, and feelings, and life presents complex challenges which are often difficult for believers and non-believers alike. Have patience and charity for those whom you may disagree with, even as you hold fast to your own beliefs and express them forcefully.

 

[GloriousOrder]

Seventy times seven… go the extra mile … forgive the debt.

I incurred a great debt in my sins as a radical theology-hating atheist. God has been merciful enough to grant me the grace of baptism for the remission of them, and for the renewal of my soul. As time passes, I find it more and more difficult to remain angry at my old atheist acquaintances who so ruined my life - because I complied, and I allowed it to be ruined. Many of them are truly ignorant people, and we are compelled to forgive them even more strongly because they are uneducated about the basics of philosophy. In their childish flailing, they do not see truth as it is; at the idea of true rational thought, they grey-out, and faint away.

If you cannot forgive any person in your heart, for any crime or offense, do two things: 1. calm yourself and recognise that you were like them not two years ago, and 2. ask our Lord Jesus Christ to forgive them.

Say: “Lord, you know I can’t forgive them right now… my heart is tortured by their wickedness and sins, and I don’t know how you expect me to forgive such twisted evils… but I want to be your son, your child, your brother - oh Jesus Christ, Son of the Merciful Judge and our Father - so please forgive them in my name, forgiving where I can’t get the strength to forgive. If you forgive them in my stead, almighty God, I will offer my anger and your forgiveness for their conversion and an increase in my humility.”

Ask Christ our Lord to forgive the unforgivable. God knows their hearts; you don’t. Even if you are too angry to forgive, beg Him to do it for you; after all, offenses and insults to morality and virtue and justice are directed at God alone, not you. Be at peace!

 

[Robert_Sock]

For many, forgiveness is a difficult virtue to master. When we learn the power and wisdom of forgiveness, we are bound to have reached an advanced level of spiritual maturity. Regardless the nature of any possible abuse that we may have endured, nor the severity of that abuse, full recovery from abuse cannot be achieved until we truly forgive our abuser(s). Any anger or resentment we hold within us, live and thrive within us, and become a part of our very self. We will never rid ourselves of this anger and resentment until we experience true forgiveness towards all. Seeing our tormentors suffer a thousand times over will only add to our own misery.

On the other hand, to endure unnecessary torment and misery is never righteous, but a perversion. Also, the righteousness of forgiveness should never involve our condoning abuse or any other forms of evil.

True forgiveness requires our valuing peace and love above all else. Experiencing forgiveness towards those who have wronged us resembles perfect love more so than perhaps any other human experience. Forgiveness involves recognizing and valuing the potential for love that exists within every human soul, including our own soul. Sins cannot be completely forgiven until we forgive, and find an inner peace with, everyone who has ever wronged us; for every ounce of anger and resentment that we hold against any other(s), there will surely exist an ounce of sin held against us – for harboring anger and resentment within our self is sin.

The Golden Rule states, “do unto others as you would have them do unto you!” Our forgiving everyone, especially those we consider our enemies or adversaries, is to demonstrate to God that we are worthy of His forgiveness. Likewise, to find love for all our enemies and adversaries is to demonstrate to God that we have suffered long enough with our hatred, and we are ready to receive His love.

Again, to experience the true power and wisdom contained within the virtue of forgiveness is to develop great spiritual growth!

 

[StOwen]

Mathematoons we need to remember that although we follow Christ Jesus there have been times in our own lives when we have rejected him. God gave us time to come back to Him and we should do the same for others.

I don’t know what you mean by Darwinism but I don’t think evolutionary theory is bad science or deception.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

I was also raised in an atheist environment and brainwashed to accept that ideology without questioning. Reactions from some family members to my conversion were really bad and hurt me deeply. Like you, I was very angry with atheism for a long time and waged a personal war aginst that belief system. I have to say that being angry all the time is extremely exhausting.

But things have changed. At some point I started praying more and that made my anger fade. I feel detached from that belief system now and feel sorry for people who live by its rules. I pray that they will question it at some point in their lives.

You are still a ‘fresh’ Catholic and are probably dealing with the baggage of the past. Just pray, seek God’s peace and this anger will slowly dissappear. The Divine Mercy chaplet is excellent for this kind of thing. For example, you can offer it for conversion of sinners who are ruining our civilisation.

 

[Kim77]

I converted from atheism to Catholicism last year. I now see that a lot of what the Atheist Left (a phrase I coined by analogy to the Christian Right–I don’t know if this is a common phrase or not) taught me is nothing more than a bunch of lies. I had already become conservative over the course of my 20s (I’m 27), but I see more clearly than ever how the godless liberals have completely destroyed morality in the Western world with their relativism garbage. I’ve been researching intelligent design science, and I now see that Darwinism is bad science at best and outright deception at worst.

As you can see, I’m angry. I was raised in the secular world and taught to believe in their satanic ways. Now I feel hurt and betrayed by them, and I get upset when I see or hear anything that supports their hateful agenda (that’s what it really is–a hatred of Christianity). I know in my mind that they’re trying to fill the hole that exists in God’s absence, but I’m having some real trouble forgiving them for trying to ruin it for the rest of us and having done so successfully (by undermining traditional morality).

How do you forgive a person or group of people who refuse to repent or even acknowledge that they are doing wrong?

Your post touched my heart. I have a son who is 27 and I married an agnostic/ atheist man and have been married to him for 33yrs. I have been a very faithful christian woman all my life and had I known what it would be like to marry someone who didn’t love God as I did; I may have made different choices in my younger years. My son and my daughter have both seen both worlds and today, both my children are good christian people because they have seen the works of both God and Satan. They know the only way to find happiness in this life is to love God with all your heart and soul. After all, we owe Him everything!!!

My heart goes out to you… it is very, very difficult to forgive people who tried to destroy your spirit and soul. But take that all from where it comes from… it isn’t God’s work. When evil takes control it is very stubborn about letting go of a soul, if not at times nearly impossible. But you have weapons today to battle back. God puts people in our lives for a reason, or you could say, he allows us to witness their different spirits for a reason. There are blessings you have received and virtues you can use to help those people who are misguided and live lies. Your prayers will not only help them but your prayers will also help you to let go of your anger and to see the truth in who is truly responsible for the evil in the world. Satan has the power to control, minipulate and possess people. It’s our lack of faith that allows Satan through doors we allow to open. for instance, my husband is a drinker… when a person indulges in alcohol too often and to the point it takes over their every thought and action… Satan takes control. Incest will also bring Satan into a soul. Original sin… etc… there are so many ways. As a Christian, it is our moral repsonsibility to learn what tools, weapons we have to battle these spiritual battles in life. God apparently thought you were a strong person (spiritually) and is counting on you to put the power of prayer to work. Let go of your anger and get to work!!!
God is counting on you! Don’t focus too much on the evil others are trying to inflict… battle it. God will bless you abundtly for your faith … maybe you are a chosen warrior. God Bless you!

 

[mathematoons]

As a former atheist mathmetoons, what changed you?

Short answer: I saw the world more clearly as I got older; I changed from liberal to conservative over the years; I found that I liked Catholic morality; my mom was changing in the same way; we started going to church.

Are there any good books that helped you? And are there any links you can point me to that show Darwinism doesnt prove everything?

www.drdino.com
A Biblical Point of View on Intelligent Design by Kerby Anderson
The Privileged Planet by Guillermo Gonzales
Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed starring Ben Stein
Incredible Creatures that Defy Evolution starring Dr. Jobe Martin
Icons of Evolution
The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel–also www.leestrobel.com and his books The Case for a Creator and The Case for Faith (the book NOT the documentary–the documentary is too sad and has lots of Holocause images).
More than a Carpenter by Josh McDowell and Sean McDowell

You’re evidently angry and I can understand your strong emotions, a product of both powerful conviction and youth. You see the world in terms of black and white, as evident in your conversion from atheism to Catholicism.

What would someone who didn’t see things in black and white have done?

Not all liberals are atheist; and not all conservatives are Christian.

Liberal Christians don’t seem to be real Christians; they pick and choose which doctrines to believe, so they don’t believe in the Gospel–they believe in themselves. Their religion resembles Christianity somewhat, but I understand conservative Muslims (for example) better than I understand liberal Christians.

People are complicated in their thoughts, opinions, and feelings, and life presents complex challenges which are often difficult for believers and non-believers alike. Have patience and charity for those whom you may disagree with, even as you hold fast to your own beliefs and express them forcefully.

That’s what I want to do–I just can’t seem to.

Mathematoons we need to remember that although we follow Christ Jesus there have been times in our own lives when we have rejected him. God gave us time to come back to Him and we should do the same for others.

True…

I don’t know what you mean by Darwinism but I don’t think evolutionary theory is bad science or deception.

By Darwinism, I mean the belief in undirected evolutionary processes that magically turn nothing into the universe, rocks and water into all life on Earth, and so on.

But there are a lot of problems with evolutionary theory as well, which are beyond the scope of this topic.

I was also raised in an atheist environment and brainwashed to accept that ideology without questioning. Reactions from some family members to my conversion were really bad and hurt me deeply. Like you, I was very angry with atheism for a long time and waged a personal war aginst that belief system. I have to say that being angry all the time is extremely exhausting.

But things have changed. At some point I started praying more and that made my anger fade. I feel detached from that belief system now and feel sorry for people who live by its rules. I pray that they will question it at some point in their lives.

Wow, when I pray about this issue, I get nothing back. I’ve felt God answering me on lots of things, but not this.

You are still a ‘fresh’ Catholic and are probably dealing with the baggage of the past.

That’s probably true. I’m still trying to get used to the split between the two lives. Anything that happened before I decided to convert

Just pray, seek God’s peace and this anger will slowly dissappear. The Divine Mercy chaplet is excellent for this kind of thing. For example, you can offer it for conversion of sinners who are ruining our civilisation.

Sounds good.

 

[Tiberius1701]

Say: “Lord, you know I can’t forgive them right now… my heart is tortured by their wickedness and sins, and I don’t know how you expect me to forgive such twisted evils… but I want to be your son, your child, your brother - oh Jesus Christ, Son of the Merciful Judge and our Father - so please forgive them in my name, forgiving where I can’t get the strength to forgive. If you forgive them in my stead, almighty God, I will offer my anger and your forgiveness for their conversion and an increase in my humility.”

This is a great prayer. I suspect that it’ll help you a lot. My wife also struggled with the ability to forgive a specific family member during our conversion. I think she still struggles with it from time to time, both with that person and with others. But, by praying things like the above, and the Divine Mercy Chaplet, she has made great strides toward forgiveness toward them and inner peace for herself.

You said,

Wow, when I pray about this issue, I get nothing back. I’ve felt God answering me on lots of things, but not this.

That’s probably because it’s such a potent issue. We don’t always feel His answer, even when it’s affirmative. In all things, God is teaching us to be obedient, so when you pray for something that you know is God’s will, something that you know He would never say “No” to - like the prayer, “Lord, please help me learn to forgive [whomever]” - don’t stop praying; just trust that He’s helping and that, since it’s obviously His will that you keep learning forgiveness, He also wants you to keep praying for it. His grace is superfluously abundant. When you ask for the grace to forgive people, He will give it.

Some people who can’t forgive others stop praying the Our Father for a time because of the line, “Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us,” knowing that, if they’re not forgiving someone, God can’t forgive them. However, I’d suggest praying St. Francis of Assissi’s meditative Our Father. He takes it beyond the surface and turns the second half of that line into a plea for God’s help in forgiving others:

“As we also forgive our debtors:
and what we do not fully forgive,
Lord, make us fully forgive,
so that we may truly love our enemies
for the sake of Thee
and intercede devoutly on their behalf with Thee,
rendering to none evil for evil
and striving in all things to advance unto Thee.”

I hope that helps. I’ll be praying for you…

 

[mathematoons]

Shoot, I somehow deleted a whole like in my last post. I was trying to say that I’m still trying to get used to the split between the two lives. Anything that happened before I decided to convert seems like a completely different life–I see pictures of myself from before and feel like I’m looking at someone else. But at the same time, I can’t believe I’ve made this huge change.

Your post touched my heart. I have a son who is 27 and I married an agnostic/ atheist man and have been married to him for 33yrs. I have been a very faithful christian woman all my life and had I known what it would be like to marry someone who didn’t love God as I did; I may have made different choices in my younger years. My son and my daughter have both seen both worlds and today, both my children are good christian people because they have seen the works of both God and Satan. They know the only way to find happiness in this life is to love God with all your heart and soul. After all, we owe Him everything!!!

This touched my heart as my post touched yours.

My heart goes out to you… it is very, very difficult to forgive people who tried to destroy your spirit and soul. But take that all from where it comes from… it isn’t God’s work. When evil takes control it is very stubborn about letting go of a soul, if not at times nearly impossible. But you have weapons today to battle back. God puts people in our lives for a reason, or you could say, he allows us to witness their different spirits for a reason. There are blessings you have received and virtues you can use to help those people who are misguided and live lies.

Yes, I’ve already helped one person decide to become Catholic, and I feel called to bring more people into the Church.

Your prayers will not only help them but your prayers will also help you to let go of your anger and to see the truth in who is truly responsible for the evil in the world.

I hope so. I know Satan is the one who makes people evil, but I look at some of those people and wonder if they really need the help.

God apparently thought you were a strong person (spiritually) and is counting on you to put the power of prayer to work. Let go of your anger and get to work!!!
God is counting on you! Don’t focus too much on the evil others are trying to inflict… battle it. God will bless you abundtly for your faith … maybe you are a chosen warrior. God Bless you!

Thank you. This really helped.

 

[YankeeRC]

Mathematoons,

I have a best friend who is going through some very difficult times and is unwilling to return to the Catholic church because of what he sees as left liberalism. He is currently so full of hatred his anger is palpable. I am really concerned for him. I make sure to talk to him on a regular basis and I know he’s seen a change in me towards peace the world can’t offer and believe me, I am far from perfect in letting go of my anger and hatreds at times.

I too am and ex-athiest/existentialist and both my friend and I are very conservative. I don’t have answers for him all the time, and often I have to just let him vent and offer what little consolation I can, even humble honest answers on how my own views have been changed by Christ.

For me personally the biggest changes came from turning off the news, avoiding internet posts after news articles, and replacing talk or music radio during my commute with the Rosary and prayer.

I also had a real eye opener from the words of one of the Psams I which keep seeing over and over in the Liturgy of the Hours, “Do not put your trust in princes, in mortal men, who cannot save.” Alway remember God will finish the work He started in us

 

[Me1234]

How do you forgive a person or group of people who refuse to repent or even acknowledge that they are doing wrong?

God still knows and He will show them after they are died if they do not repent. As it says somewhere in the bible the judgement at the end is also for the confoundation of the wicked. Leave it up to Him.

Liberals are also saddening aren’t they? They don’t see what should be right in front of their faces. It’s frustrating. It makes my stomach drop when I hear what some of those guys believe and teach others.

Just realize that God controls and permits all that is so the world’s future’s not all on your shoulders. Let the anger go because we’ve got to forgive our trespassors if we want to say the our father.

 

[WesleyF]

How do you forgive a person or group of people who refuse to repent or even acknowledge that they are doing wrong?

Do you feel obliged to forgive? There is no** need** to forgive as far as I can see. Repentance has to precede forgiveness. Unconditional forgiveness is not taught in Christianity.

We aren’t obligated to forgive people who do not want us to. This is one of the biggest stumbling blocks that people have regarding the topic. People have seen “unconditional” forgiveness and love hammered so often that they feel obligated to forgive someone even before that person has repented. Sometimes they even tell the unrepentant that they have preemptively forgiven him (much to the impenitent’s annoyance).

This is not what is required of us.

Consider Luke 17:3–4, where Jesus tells us, “If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him; and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, and says, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”

Notice that Jesus says to forgive him if he repents, not regardless of whether he does so. Jesus also envisions the person coming back to you and admitting his wrong.

The upshot? If someone isn’t repentant, you don’t have to forgive him.

catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0309bt.asp

 

[Universalis]

I converted from atheism to Catholicism last year. I now see that a lot of what the Atheist Left (a phrase I coined by analogy to the Christian Right–I don’t know if this is a common phrase or not) taught me is nothing more than a bunch of lies. I had already become conservative over the course of my 20s (I’m 27), but I see more clearly than ever how the godless liberals have completely destroyed morality in the Western world with their relativism garbage. I’ve been researching intelligent design science, and I now see that Darwinism is bad science at best and outright deception at worst.

As you can see, I’m angry. I was raised in the secular world and taught to believe in their satanic ways. Now I feel hurt and betrayed by them, and I get upset when I see or hear anything that supports their hateful agenda (that’s what it really is–a hatred of Christianity). I know in my mind that they’re trying to fill the hole that exists in God’s absence, but I’m having some real trouble forgiving them for trying to ruin it for the rest of us and having done so successfully (by undermining traditional morality).

How do you forgive a person or group of people who refuse to repent or even acknowledge that they are doing wrong?

First off, they don’t need your forgiveness. They don’t know you and have not wronged you. Many of them, in fact, think that they are doing the best thing for humanity and just might possibly view you the way you view them.

Second, while I do believe strongly in morality, one must remember that “traditional morality” is something that comes and goes and becomes gradually more loose or conservative, depending on the time period. Sort of like Schlesinger’s cyclical theory of history.

Finally, evolutionary theory is not “bad science” or “deception”. It is the attempt of science to explain the diversity of life on earth as well as the origins of life on earth. It bears no threat to any religion who is open to the truth, wherever it may lead.

 

[Robert_Sock]

I now see that Darwinism is bad science at best and outright deception at worst.

I agree with you here wholeheartedly!

 

[TimothyH]

Do you feel obliged to forgive? There is no** need** to forgive as far as I can see. Repentance has to precede forgiveness. Unconditional forgiveness is not taught in Christianity.

catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0309bt.asp

You didn’t add the next line in the article referenced.

If you do forgive him anyway, that can be meritorious, provided it doesn’t otherwise have bad effects (e.g., encouraging future bad behavior).

Forgiveness may not be required but it is highly recommended. From the Catechism…

***. “AND FORGIVE US OUR TRESPASSES, AS WE FORGIVE THOSE WHO TRESPASS AGAINST US”

2838 This petition is astonishing. If it consisted only of the first phrase, “And forgive us our trespasses,” it might have been included, implicitly, in the first three petitions of the Lord’s Prayer, since Christ’s sacrifice is “that sins may be forgiven.” But, according to the second phrase, our petition will not be heard unless we have first met a strict requirement. Our petition looks to the future, but our response must come first, for the two parts are joined by the single word “as.”

And forgive us our trespasses . . . ***

and

***2840 Now - and this is daunting - this outpouring of mercy cannot penetrate our hearts as long as we have not forgiven those who have trespassed against us. Love, like the Body of Christ, is indivisible; we cannot love the God we cannot see if we do not love the brother or sister we do see. In refusing to forgive our brothers and sisters, our hearts are closed and their hardness makes them impervious to the Father’s merciful love; but in confessing our sins, our hearts are opened to his grace. ***

The Prodical Son. The Wicked Servant. The cry from the cross. The totality of Jesus’ teaching on forgiveness is clear.

-Tim-

 

[WesleyF]

You didn’t add the next line in the article referenced.

The reason I did not is because the author himself replies to that line of reasoning by stating that unconditional forgiveness can sometimes have bad effects. We must therefore use caution while exercising unconditional forgiveness. He also replied to the question “But wouldn’t it be more spiritual to forgive everyone?” by saying “I sympathize with this argument, but there is a two-word rejoinder to it: God doesn’t.”

 

[Tiberius1701]

The reason I did not is because the author himself replies to that line of reasoning by stating that unconditional forgiveness can sometimes have bad effects. We must therefore use caution while exercising unconditional forgiveness. He also replied to the question “But wouldn’t it be more spiritual to forgive everyone?” by saying “I sympathize with this argument, but there is a two-word rejoinder to it: God doesn’t.”

That’s as may be, but clearly, in the circumstances discussed here - i.e. forgiving others whom the OP both clearly wound never show acceptance of their continued rejection of Truth, and has no immediate interaction by which to show that acceptance - there are no bad effects. By forgiving them, regardless of their repentance or lack thereof, he becomes a better, more loving person, and he in no way engenders the theoretical “bad effects” that might occur if he were somehow enabling their behavior by his forgiveness… because, simply put, there’s no chance of him enabling it.

Just as it is never licit to do bad that good may come of it, it’s hardly solid moral practice to not do good on the 1% chance that bad might come of it… but almost certainly won’t. Yes, there are cases where endlessly forgiving someone in such a way that they believe you to be condoning their actions is a bad idea. This is not one of those few cases.