Can't the Holy Father Just Make Liturgical Reform Happen?

[brotherhrolf]

Brother is absolutely correct. It is possible to have a reverent OF Mass. I can see it on EWTN and I see it on Sunday at my parish but, perhaps more importantly, I can make a 60 minute trip and visit my local Benedictine abbey as I have done since I was a kid. Our local Benedictine abbey houses the undergraduate seminary for the province of Louisiana, a retreat center of note, a center for the arts, a simply excellent wordwoking shop, and grows its own food on its farm. I have visited this abbey since I was an altar boy back in the 50s. I know two of the brothers who are also priests. One is a musician who has composed some simply beautiful hymns in the vernacular that I have never shrunk from singing (and many of y’all know how I feel about that ) and the other teaches theology at the seminary but is an archaeologist whom I have helped with his Native American digs on the abbey grounds. My cathedral choir makes an annual choral retreat to the abbey that was one of the highlights of my year because we would get to sing and chant with the brothers. Even if it was in the vernacular, the sense of the presence of God is palpable.

I would no more want to see a return to what many of us knew before 1965 imposed upon the people of this day than have a root canal. What does the golden rule say? Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. We cannot march in like gang busters and impose what we knew after all that has happened in the last 45 years. I agree with Brother. A reverent OF is possible. It is going to be easier to accomplish a reverent OF than it is to impose the EF on people who have perhaps never been exposed to Latin. I do not want to do to them what was done to us in the course of two short years.

I attend a reverent OF cathedral parish. Our choir regularly sings Latin motets and chants. Come next Sunday during Lent we will chant the Kyrie, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei. We have been doing that for several years. As Father Z says “one brick at a time”. Would I like to see my parish offer a Missa Cantata? You betcha! My oldest son (28) took it upon himself to learn how to chant the Pater Noster! Blew me completely away!

At the same time, the idea of Latin and far more formal worship scares the living daylights out of some people who have never experienced same. I am not going to mention names but I have butted heads here with someone who objects to my traditional views and obviously believes that I am somewhere to the right of Genghis Khan. I went to that person’s parish website and lo and behold what do I see? Liturgical dancers wafting bowls of incense at the Gospel proclamation for the parish’s 100th anniversary celebration…

One step at a time; one brick at a time.

 

[ProVobis]

Thank you. God bless you. I wonder if a new printing of the Missal will come out with the corrections, and if it will be in both Latin and English. I wonder if it will be more like the 1962 Missal the Pope has approved the use of, or had the English translation in that Missal been incorrect in some sense.

Actually if you have an pre-Vatican II missal you’ll find that some of the “new” translations of the English Mass to be almost identical to the English in those missals. That is, the Gloria, the Creed (including “consubstantial with the Father”), most of the responses, and some other prayers.

The English in those missals, however, was never made official and had some variations, though they did carry a Imprimatur by a bishop. The English was to be used as a guide only. It was never to be used in the Mass until next year. So I guess in a sense you could say that the Church is going back with its New Mass.

 

[JReducation]

Brother is absolutely correct. It is possible to have a reverent OF Mass. I can see it on EWTN and I see it on Sunday at my parish but, perhaps more importantly, I can make a 60 minute trip and visit my local Benedictine abbey as I have done since I was a kid. Our local Benedictine abbey houses the undergraduate seminary for the province of Louisiana, a retreat center of note, a center for the arts, a simply excellent wordwoking shop, and grows its own food on its farm. I have visited this abbey since I was an altar boy back in the 50s. I know two of the brothers who are also priests. One is a musician who has composed some simply beautiful hymns in the vernacular that I have never shrunk from singing (and many of y’all know how I feel about that ) and the other teaches theology at the seminary but is an archaeologist whom I have helped with his Native American digs on the abbey grounds. My cathedral choir makes an annual choral retreat to the abbey that was one of the highlights of my year because we would get to sing and chant with the brothers. Even if it was in the vernacular, the sense of the presence of God is palpable.

I would no more want to see a return to what many of us knew before 1965 imposed upon the people of this day than have a root canal. What does the golden rule say? Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. We cannot march in like gang busters and impose what we knew after all that has happened in the last 45 years. I agree with Brother. A reverent OF is possible. It is going to be easier to accomplish a reverent OF than it is to impose the EF on people who have perhaps never been exposed to Latin. I do not want to do to them what was done to us in the course of two short years.

I attend a reverent OF cathedral parish. Our choir regularly sings Latin motets and chants. Come next Sunday during Lent we will chant the Kyrie, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei. We have been doing that for several years. As Father Z says “one brick at a time”. Would I like to see my parish offer a Missa Cantata? You betcha! My oldest son (28) took it upon himself to learn how to chant the Pater Noster! Blew me completely away!

At the same time, the idea of Latin and far more formal worship scares the living daylights out of some people who have never experienced same. I am not going to mention names but I have butted heads here with someone who objects to my traditional views and obviously believes that I am somewhere to the right of Genghis Khan. I went to that person’s parish website and lo and behold what do I see? Liturgical dancers wafting bowls of incense at the Gospel proclamation for the parish’s 100th anniversary celebration…

One step at a time; one brick at a time.

Thank you Brotherhrolf for your testimony. I was just to remind the readers that it is possible to have the OF in Latin when the priest knows Latin. In my community we have very few priests. We were founded as a contemplative community that only goes out to work in Gospel of Life Ministry. Therefore, we do not need priests, because we can attend mass at the local parish. But all of our brothers know Latin. We are all comfortable with either the OF or the Ef in Latin, as well as the Liturgy of the Hours. All of our communication accross international boarders is done in either Latin or Italian, then translated to the local language. The two official languages of the order are Italian and Latin. But the OF serves a need, because the few priests that we have would be unable to celebrate daily mass if we only had the EF. The constitutions are clear that the brothers may have only one conventual mass in those houses where there is a conventual mass. As I said, we have houses where we do not have any priests. Those brothers walk to the nearest parish every morning. But there are houses where there are two or more ordained brothers, as we call them. Then it becomes imperative to concelebrate or they can’t celebrate daily mass. Not only can you not have more than one conventual mass, the brothers who are orained may no celebrate mass alone. If they do not celebrate the conventual mass, they must attend along with the other brothers. This goes back to 1209. I know that other monastic and mendicant orders have the same regulations: ie. Benedictines and Carmelites.

Benedictines and Franciscans, especially these two groups, are struggling to get back to our roots. This means that we not go further into parish ministry, but close parishes that we run or surrender them to the local bishop and return to the monastery or the friary. The OF allows monks and friars to live in their respective religious houses and still have ordained menbers. I know that the Franciscan family of men have been able to pull thousands of friars from parishes and back to friary living since concelebration was approved. It also freed up thousands or ordained friars to work in soup kitchens, homeless shelters, street ministry, homes for the sick and elderly, and many other ministries among the poorest of the poor in urban and mission areas. It also allows the major superior to authorize the ordination of younger friars who are entering without having to assign them to parishes, but keep them in the friary and on the streets or in the cloister, according to their gifts.

I brought many Benedictine monks back to the monastery to work on scholarly activities, which is their original charism. Over the years, they too have pulled thousands of monks from parishes and returned to the blessing of the abbey where St. Benedict wanted them.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[redrosetea]

BR JR I have read that there might be a fixed date for Easter if the Orthodox agree

How would this work? Easter and Passover are so deeply connected

 

[JReducation]

BR JR I have read that there might be a fixed date for Easter if the Orthodox agree

How would this work? Easter and Passover are so deeply connected

There is a rumor going around to this effect. I am not on the inside of this. But I believe that the rumor is mistaken. I think that the agreement that is being sought is to celebrate Easter as the same time, not on a fixed day. You see, even in the Catholic Church, we do not celebrate Easter at the same time. Most Catholic Churches follow the Roman calendar and celebrate Easter at the same time. But there are some Catholic Churches that celebrate it with Passover, as to the Orthodox. The desire is to have everyone, Roman Catholics, Eastern Catholics and Orthodox celebrate it at the same time. The Reformation communities follow the Roman Catholic calendar. Therefore, they celebrate Easter with us. In the East the Churches follow the Jewish calendar and plan Easter to coincide with Passover.

For the Roman Catholic Church, the Easter celebration does not coincide with Passover, because we follow a different calendar. Therefore we count the weeks and months differently. On the Jewish calendar a month as 28 days. They follow the lunar month. We follow the calendar month.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Adeodatus]

Brother JR, I don’t think that I agree with all that you have said, but I thank you for your response.

 

[JReducation]

Brother JR, I don’t think that I agree with all that you have said, but I thank you for your response.

I can understand why you may disagree. I pray that you will try to understand why the Apostolic See wants to keep the Ordinary Form. I has done a great deal of good for many people, especially religious men.

This is important to me, because I am a religious in a community where we have recently begun to ordain some men. We never did before. But I always find that may lay people forget that we exist. They don’t do it to be mean. They simply forget. I guess because we are not as present in parishes. That’s where most lay people congregate.

But for those souls who are out there in places that are not parishes, the religious are a common sight and their ownly contact with the Church. Diocesan priests do not go out there to those places. It’s not their vocation to do so. Their vocation is to serve the needs of the diocese, not the poor, unborn, homeless, addict, sick, elderly, hungry, orphan, victims of abortion, unemployed, student and so forth. They only serve these people if they come to a parish for services. Now, I have to acknowledge, there have been secular priests who have left their diocesan parishes to do this kind of work; but they are the exception. That’s the way it has to be, otherwise, you would have to close down every parish.

So my message to the laity is that you not forget us. We are part of the Church too and we have a special place in the life of the Church. If the Ordinary Form enriches religious life, then it has done some good. As a mendicant and a begger, I can tell you that it has made a big difference.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[ProVobis]

For the Roman Catholic Church, the Easter celebration does not coincide with Passover, because we follow a different calendar.

I believe in the RCC Easter is the Sunday following the first full moon of spring.

 

[otjm]

What encourages those of us who would like to see the Latin Mass become dominant again is to recall that when Jesus started the Church there were only 12 apostles.

First, I would suggest that you review the comments by Br. JR.

Second, keep in mind that the Pope (and others) intend to continue working on the OF, to eventually get it to look more like what was originally intended by the bishops at Vatican 2. And eventually, the priests who did so much “expermentation” with the OF are retiring and/or dying off; the group called the “John Paul” priests have far different issues they are concerned with and are bringing about a move to a much more reverent OF. That does not make it an EF, but does clean up much of the problematic parts.

Third, read Sumorum Pontificum and the Pope’s letter that accompanied it. Br. JR is correct; the Pope simply does not see this as a “foot in the door” to do away with the OF. Further, Vatican 2 is not going to go away, or “be revised”: both JP 2 and B 16 have said and said repeatedly that it needs to be fully implemented. Note: the first document of the Council was about liturgy, and the EF does not comply with the changes the Council wanted (and yes, we can all agree that the OF doesn’t either); so common sense would indicate that the OF is going to be worked on; and certainly the implication is there that the EF may eventually, too. It is not too far a stretch of imagination to see some time off in the future where the two are blended into one. And there is also no guarantee such would happen.

And yes, I understand that some people want to see the EF become the dominant Mass. The likelyhood, just from a practical point of view looking at the world, as opposed to what is happening in the US in an individual diocese, would indicate that is simply not going to occur. Could it? Of course it is within the realm of possiblities; but it is a possiblity that is so unlikely as to not have any reality.

 

[Peter78]

I think most of us know what the Holy Father’s intentions are and I feel it is wise to introduce these changes/revisions at a slow pace. I myself would love if the ordinary form used the EF as the base and add (not delete) some of the OF practices that are most appreciated. My fear is that unfortunately there are not many Cardinals and bishops out there who actually feel the same as the Holy Father concerning liturgical reform. Although I pray that Pope Benedict lives until at least 120 in order to possibly apply the reforms that he desires, the reality is that his next successor would have to have the same views as he does regarding the liturgy. From the many bishops and priests that I have talked to, many do not see a problem. I recently spoke to one of our parish priests who just celebrated his 80th birthday. He says that before the OF, he loved the EF but now sees it as “an antiquated liturgy that is not relevant anymore”. He said there were too many rules on how to conduct the mass and not necessarily that he disliked Latin. Unfortunately, when he celebrates the OF, his methods have much to be desired. My point is that it would take a serious realisation from all Bishops and priests…as well as the laity…in order for the Holy Father’s wishes to be fullfilled.