Can't we give Protestants SOME credit???

[goodcatholicman]

I know this thread might start World War III in here, but, here goes…

I am NOT a Protestant and do not wish to be. But I notice a constant venom spewed at Protestantism and a real burying our heads in the sand as Catholics. We don’t want to acknowledge that there MUST BE SOMETHING GOOD about Protestantism in a Christ-like way that makes Catholics leave and join up with them.

As a former Anglican, I can certainly attest there are many wonderful things about protestant churches. And you are right, the Catholics that seemed the most “burned out” and really quite cynical are the cradle Catholics! The converts like me in my paish carry the torch for the lot! Strange, in the world of protestants it seems to be the other way. The longer they were protestant, the more fire up they were. Interesting but I still enjoy the Catholic church MORE!

 

[Petergee]

I notice a constant venom spewed at Protestantism and a real burying our heads in the sand as Catholics. We don’t want to acknowledge that there MUST BE SOMETHING GOOD about Protestantism in a Christ-like way

I haven’t noticed anything like this and I hang around here a lot. Where are these CAF threads where there is “constant venom against Protestants” and refusal to acknowledge that there is anything good or Christian about Protestantism? There are many threads where Catholics and protestants charitably discuss their differences and commonalities. There are some threads where protestant trolls savagely attack Catholics, and where Catholics nearly always reply charitably and truthfully.

that makes Catholics leave and join up with them.

I have never heard of a committed practising Catholic who knew the history of the Catholic Church and what it teaches and practises, converting to Protestantism because he found it more Christ-like.

Think about growing up Catholic…I have a HORRRRRIBLE CCD Catechism class every year!! I learned nothing! I didn’t even know about the real presence until I was in college!! I know my church wasn’t the only lousy CCD bunch!!

Most Catholics you talk to on the street have no catechetical knowledge of the Church Fathers, basic theology, sacramental awareness, or real understanding of what makes a Catholic different from any other Christian faith.

The inadequacy of catechetics in many parishes is a very common subject of discussion on CAF. What makes you think we are “burying our heads in the sand” about it?

Protestants are very adept at:

Making their followers Biblically-literate
Creating fellowship and a warm, inviting place
Visiting the sick or infirm in their flocks
Creating interesting vacation bible studies
preaching
getting people fired-up

IMO it’s a very big call indeed to declare that the average protestant parish is better at these things than the average Catholic parish. I’d say overall they’re about even or if anyone is ahead it’s the Catholics. (Re the vacation Bible studies I guess it depends how you define “interesting”)

Let’s look at one thing: MOST Catholics I know who are excited, fired-up, theologically-bright, knowledgable folks are FORMER PROTESTANTS!!! Yikes!

Scott Hahn and the other hordes of folks on EWTN are former Protestants!! It seems like to be a really gifted author, teacher, and celebrity in the Catholic media you need to first have been either Jewish or Evangelical?? This is not a compliment to our Catholic faith? We don’t produce Thomas Aquinases or Padre Pios these days but rather borrow them from the Protestants after they’re Biblically literate and then throw in tradition and theology to make them OUR new representatives. Scott Hahn, Roselyn Moss, Marcus Grodi, etc. etc. are all former Protestants and are quite brilliant in many respects. Converts seem to be the thing!? Why doesn’t Catholic education produce such genius?

The folks at Mass around me who SING all the hymns are always former Lutherans, former Anglicans, former Presbyterians, the key word is FORMER PROTESTANT! The cradle Catholics stand there stoically looking like zombies?

Yes, many of **the best of **the protestants have become Catholics. But you’re comparing the cream of the protestants with the “Joe Average” Catholic. And yes, there are plenty of cradle Catholics who are brilliant and gifted authors, teachers, singers, theologians, and holy priests. I don’t think just being a “celebrity” is an exemplary Christian thing to do. Your reference to Padre Pio puzzles me. He lived not far away from “these days”, he was not an author or teacher, and he hated the fact that other people made him a “celebrity”. Yes, Catholic apologists who are converts have an advantage in that their critics can’t retort “You’re just regurgitating what was brainwashed/thrashed into you as a child!”

 

[Petergee]

Let’s give some credit to Protestants for creating a passion for the scriptures and for Christ. These many converts received that spark of passion for God first from the Protestants.

Again, I see this credit given here very often.

I always notice that Catholics might slam Martin Luther, calling him Martin Loser

Again, never seen that here, or anywhere else for that matter. But now that you mention it, it is quite catchy.

and trashing his “sola scriptura,” etc. etc.

It’s a trashy doctrine which Luther himself only invented out of desperation long after he split from the Church. It deserves to be trashed.

but, in the end, there is a sneaking admiration and appreciation as well as respect for him from many Catholics. I am one of them. While I don’t agree with several of his philosophies, his passion for what he perceived to be truth, his love of the Eucharist and the Scriptures, his unwillingness to fold to a very then-corrupt Church, his disgust at the indulgence abuses (and they WERE abused!), and conviction in his views made him a heroic anti-hero/villain. He’s a confusing guy. He’s a lightning rod. But there is a respect there. I know I respect him.

You don’t know much about him then. “passion for truth”? - how come he contradicted himself so often and seemed to make up doctrines as he went along, discarding what he had previously believed? If he loved the Scriptures why did he trash so much of them, and attempt to trash many more? Even in the foreward to his edition of the Bible he called the epistle of St James “an epistle of straw”! NO, the Church was not “corrupt”. Christ promised it would never be corrupt. Millions of Catholics from the pope down were determined to fight against abuses, and they did so, effectively, even in Luther’s own lifetime, without leaving the Church. If Luther really cared about the abuses, he would have done the same. The kindest thing I can say about Luther is that whilst he was totally responsible for his initial break with the Church, in later years he admitted that corruption, bloodshed, irreligion and life in general in protestant Germany were much worse than when Germany was 100% Catholic, and he may have secretly wanted to return to the Church except that he now found overcoming his sin of pride too difficult because the protestant cause had been taken up by powerful princes who saw it as a way to increase their wealth and power, and Luther may have found he had painted himself into a corner and could no longer control the monster he had given birth to. But he is responsible for initiating the largest, bloodiest and most enduring heresy in history. Even Lutherans and other protestants who know the history of the real Luther will distance themselves from him as much as possible when questioned about him.

 

[Bamm]

Yes, I am very much aware that there are differences between Catholic Churches. The same as there are differences between Protestant ones.

All I have been pointing out is that the corner stone is the same, Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.

“, he that is not against us, is for us.” (KJV) Luke 9:50

Bamm

 

[Petergee]

Yes, I am very much aware that there are differences between Catholic Churches. The same as there are differences between Protestant ones.

Really? Name one doctrinal difference between any two “Catholic Churches”.

 

[Reuben_J]

I give credit to Protestants for their generosity in tithing. Their church collections would be generally proportionally higher than our average parish. I would give them credit too in their witnessing to the Gospel and to Christ. I know some Protestant friends who would not shy away from evangelizing directly about Christ and would quote Biblical verses when necessary.

But we Catholics are catching up in theses areas. Yes, we are catching up. And that’s a good sign of things.

Perhaps it’s because of traditions or what - Catholics are more Sacramental while Protestants are more Sciptural. They do not have the Sacraments so they tend to focus more on the Scriptures. But nowadays, this cannot be said of Catholics anymore. It is common for Catholics to carry Bibles to their prayer meetings. …

 

[kevinas2]

Yes, I am very much aware that there are differences between Catholic Churches. The same as there are differences between Protestant ones.

All I have been pointing out is that the corner stone is the same, Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.

“, he that is not against us, is for us.” (KJV) Luke 9:50

Bamm

 

[dessert]

I think there has to be an agreement on how to live the Christian/Catholic life. Since many of us are intermarried and adults, we have allready made choices. Let’s give the praise and thanksgiving and Glory to our God!

 

[dchet121272]

You have the same kind of people on both sides, protestant and catholic that go through the motions but do not actully practice their religon. Most protestants that turn to catholisism are looking for the whole truth about being a Christian and find it by the history and tradition of the Catholic Church. Most catholic people who turn to the protestant churches most likely did not get involved in their own parish and did not see what really goes on outside of mass.

As a 35 year old cradle catholic, I have been involved with 3 parishes churches over the last 7 years. When I say involved, I mean volunteer with youth ministry and pour out my life to these programs. During those 7 years I went through confirmation classes, immersed myself with scripture and have tried to do my best to become a better catholic and not just go through the motions.

I must be an exception to the rule then because I am this close (picture my finger and thumb being held up with a tiny gap) to leaving the catholic church. I’m tired of the same things happening: the pastor burns out, a new one gets assigned, changes it all around, major fallout, peopel pissed, rumors start, people get hurt and churches “crumble”. Meanwhile my numerous protestant friends continue with the same pastors they’ve been worshipping with since grade school.

 

[ralphinal]

As a 35 year old cradle catholic, I have been involved with 3 parishes churches over the last 7 years. When I say involved, I mean volunteer with youth ministry and pour out my life to these programs. During those 7 years I went through confirmation classes, immersed myself with scripture and have tried to do my best to become a better catholic and not just go through the motions.

I must be an exception to the rule then because I am this close (picture my finger and thumb being held up with a tiny gap) to leaving the catholic church. I’m tired of the same things happening: the pastor burns out, a new one gets assigned, changes it all around, major fallout, peopel pissed, rumors start, people get hurt and churches “crumble”. Meanwhile my numerous protestant friends continue with the same pastors they’ve been worshipping with since grade school.

I’ve seen this happen with Catholic and Protestant churches. It is nothing abnormal. We get used to the way one minister works. We do not like change. I would ask why, if you believe what the Church teaches, would you leave? Another talk for another thread.

Anyway, I admire the fact that they do seem into the whole community life aspect more than us. In Birmingham, ALabama, the Baptist youth groups are the most vibrant. More members seem to participate in Adult studies. I wish Catholics would continue thier education as well.

In my town (a medium suburb of Birmingham), the Catholic church is probably the third largest as far as members, maybe fourth. We donate the most food to the local non-denominational food bank, donate the most toys for the local toys for tots (the only church to participate, in fact), and we do more to help in disasters. It has been this way for many years, but most members of our church do not know it (we do not brag). I get disgusted when a family wants to leave because we are not like the other church and have a cool program. We just try to be good Christians and let that speak for itself.

 

[dchet121272]

We just try to be good Christians and let that speak for itself.

And that is exactly what I want to do…be a better disciple, mentor and role model. I’m just not sure I have to go to a catholic church to do it.

 

[East_and_West]

Protestants are very adept at:

Making their followers Biblically-literate
.

If this was true, Protestants would all convert to Catholicism.

 

[dessert]

And that is exactly what I want to do…be a better disciple, mentor and role model. I’m just not sure I have to go to a catholic church to do it.

We are all human, and you may be doing too much, look around and see if you can direct others to assist and as mentoring you are helping others learn roles of leadership and delegate some to others. A good role model would not leave the Church, or others may be lead away too. It sounds like you need a little space for yourself and to have time to pray.

 

[dchet121272]

It sounds like you need a little space for yourself and to have time to pray.

You hit it right on the head there dessert…Note that I didn’t say I was bailing out for sure. I have already decided that I just need some time to visit other parishes in my area and see if I feel called to a new community…again. Maybe I’ll find it easier to get back to basics if I just play it low key for a while…which is VERY difficult for me because I feel called to do so much more than just attend mass.

Sometimes the religion (our well intentioned efforts to “get it together for God”) gets in the way.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I don’t know that anyone can judge the “lukewarmness” of a cradle Catholic or anyone else by whether he/she sings loudly or “fellowships” (oh, how I hate that word used as a verb) a lot or not.

The Mass has always been Eucharist-centered, and rightly so. While I might admire someone’s singing voice, that’s not why I go to Mass, and I certainly don’t go in order to go have donuts in the parish hall. Being truly involved in the Mass is very personal, and though I really, really like to sing, and do, (I won’t touch a Marty Haughen or SL Jesuits song though. Even I have my standards.) sometimes I find it distracting, particular when singing starts up while I’m in line for Communion, or when I have returned to my pew.

Not to be unkind, but other than the possibly stem-winding, but possibly boring sermon by the minister, a couple of usually obscure readings and a song here and there (usually fewer than in Catholic churches nowadays) there’s just not a whole lot to most Protestant services, and I can well understand their feeling that perhaps “fellowshipping” is high on the list of reasons for being there.

The kinds of comparisons one often sees are “apples and oranges”. We’re just not doing the same thing when we go to church, and we who are Catholics ought not to try emulating Protestant ways at Mass.

One should not be misled by the Protestant “tithing”. A lot of that is a short-lived phenomenon. If you don’t produce, lots of those churches will eventually ask you not to come back. It’s just a different thing all the way around.

Lest anyone misunderstand, I grew up knowing far more protestants than Catholics; mostly Fundamentalists of one kind or another, and I do admire the faith of many of them. But I’m not too impressed with the “isms”. Neither are lots of them. For a lot of them, the “brand loyalty” is not very strong, and not necessarily long-lasting. Christianity, yes. But whether this kind of Baptist or that kind of Holiness church or non-denom, not necessarily.

 

[Petergee]

As a 35 year old cradle catholic, I have been involved with 3 parishes churches over the last 7 years. When I say involved, I mean volunteer with youth ministry and pour out my life to these programs. During those 7 years I went through confirmation classes, immersed myself with scripture and have tried to do my best to become a better catholic and not just go through the motions.

I must be an exception to the rule then because I am this close (picture my finger and thumb being held up with a tiny gap) to leaving the catholic church. I’m tired of the same things happening: the pastor burns out, a new one gets assigned, changes it all around, major fallout, peopel pissed, rumors start, people get hurt and churches “crumble”. Meanwhile my numerous protestant friends continue with the same pastors they’ve been worshipping with since grade school.

Some bishops like to leave their parish priests in place indefinitely. Others like to move them around every few years. There are pros and cons for both arrangements. But it sounds like you need to take a deep breath and reflect on why you are a Catholic in the first place. Fundamentally, it’s because you believe that the Church was founded by Christ and its teachings are true, right? So the things you describe are very annoying and disappointing (I’ve experienced similar things myself) but certainly no reason to consider leaving the Catholic Church. Unlike most protestant churches, the Catholic Church is far, far broader and deeper and more far-reaching than the personality, style, preferences, prejudices and obsessions of one individual pastor. It’s not all about him at all. We are one Church of 1.2 billion Catholics in every country in the world. Attendances and activities at one particular parish may drastically reduce, but the Church never “crumbles”, and Christ has guaranteed that it never will.

 

[Metaron]

If this was true, Protestants would all convert to Catholicism.

How true, how true…

 

[dessert]

You hit it right on the head there dessert…Note that I didn’t say I was bailing out for sure. I have already decided that I just need some time to visit other parishes in my area and see if I feel called to a new community…again. Maybe I’ll find it easier to get back to basics if I just play it low key for a while…which is VERY difficult for me because I feel called to do so much more than just attend mass.

Sometimes the religion (our well intentioned efforts to “get it together for God”) gets in the way.

I’m glad to hear you say that and we are not really strangers try the prayer intentions thread you may get some more help there

If God is calling you, I’m sure glad you are not out yet, Bless You!

 

[kevinas2]

As a 35 year old cradle catholic, I have been involved with 3 parishes churches over the last 7 years. When I say involved, I mean volunteer with youth ministry and pour out my life to these programs. During those 7 years I went through confirmation classes, immersed myself with scripture and have tried to do my best to become a better catholic and not just go through the motions.

I must be an exception to the rule then because I am this close (picture my finger and thumb being held up with a tiny gap) to leaving the catholic church. I’m tired of the same things happening: the pastor burns out, a new one gets assigned, changes it all around, major fallout, peopel pissed, rumors start, people get hurt and churches “crumble”. Meanwhile my numerous protestant friends continue with the same pastors they’ve been worshipping with since grade school.

Other denominations switch their pastors also. We are all human, some will get burned out. And if you are a cradle catholic you should know about reassignmant in your dioces. And if a new one gets assigned he can not change anything around in the mass it stays the same and always will.

 

[ralphinal]

dchet,
I remembered the words of a great speaker last night. His name is Frank Runyon (sp?). He is an actor who now teaches the faith in a magnificent style. Anyway, he likes to point out that we are Human Beings not Human Doings. We are called to be with God. Start there.