Cantors

[Cat]

If what some of you are saying is true and the congregation used to do no singing, but the choir did it all–NO WONDER SO MANY CATHOLICS CAME TO OUR EVANGELICAL CHURCH BACK IN THE 1960s and 1970s! They ached to sing and we sang a lot!

God created people to sing. Why would the longest book in the Bible be Psalms if it were not so? If Paul and Silas sang in jail and the martyrs sang on their way into the arena, then what on earth is so wrong with us singing today?

Some of you act as though it’s a sin for a cantor to “direct” the congregation. For heaven’s sake, what’s wrong with it? The congregation often appreciates a little guidance as to whether it’s time to slow down.

BTW, many pianists have NEVER directed in their lives before. I was trained as an accompanist, and accompanists DO NOT interfere with the director. It is against all my training to direct anyone, soloist, choir, congregation, etc. from the piano. I might move my head around up and down to indicate a downbeat, but that’s it, and you won’t see that if you’re sitting way in the back with your little bunchkins! PLEASE give me a director, a cantor, a priest who sings, SOMEONE, or I am just a worthless piano player who may as well go home. I don’t want to play for your listening pleasure. I want to accompany you as you worship God in song.

 

[Phemie]

Ha! Yes, as my friends and I call it, working like an “Air Traffic Controller”. Unfortunately, we’ve been required to use the gestures.

Not an Air Traffic Controller, all his work is verbal and he’s never seen. I think you’re thinking of ramp agents, those guys who use hand signals to tell planes where to park.

I feel insulted when I am treated as though it were my first time at Mass. I don’t think I’m alone in that either. As for those whose first time it is, I think we can help them know when to jump in without hand signals from anyone.

 

[bpbasilphx]

But what’s the purpose of a cantor? To my knowledge there was no such position prior to 1969 or so? Why was this believed to be needed?

As a matter of fact, the Tridentine Mass called for using 1, 2, or 4 cantors, depending on the rank of the feast, for intoning (starting) certain parts. This was not always followed in parishes.

 

[CB_Catholic]

Usually, soprano and tenor cantors do sing the psalms and hymns in the same keys as the alto and bass cantors. Once in while you might have someone who knows how to transpose on the spot or have a transposer on those electric organs.

What I find is that sometimes sopranos tend to not know how to sing with depth, so they sound incredibly treble-like, with no richness in the sound to give it a balance. When the voice sounds like it is mainly “treble-y”, it makes the listener feel as if they are singing in a higher key or that they need to strain their own voices if they are joining in with the singing.

I’m a Mezzo-Soprano and a professional opera singer, although I do know the difference of singing with my “opera” voice and my “church” voice. I’ve had people come up to me and say, “I love the mezzo voice. You sing in a key that I can sing in. I like the soprano, but I she sings too high.” They are very surprised when they discover that both the soprano and I are singing in the exact same keys. The difference is that although she has a nice voice, she does not sing with depth. She’s not grounded.

Yes, that is probably the reason it is hard to sing with the sopranos in my church.

 

[KathleenElsie]

We call it the touchdown sign. It can be done simply or it can be done with “flair”. My dd does it simply with one hand.

 

[LilyM]

Not an Air Traffic Controller, all his work is verbal and he’s never seen. I think you’re thinking of ramp agents, those guys who use hand signals to tell planes where to park.

I feel insulted when I am treated as though it were my first time at Mass. I don’t think I’m alone in that either. As for those whose first time it is, I think we can help them know when to jump in without hand signals from anyone.

Hmmm … plenty of people in the parishes round here don’t seem to know the other responses, nor when to sit, stand and kneel (although each church does it exactly the same, there aren’t any mavericks that I know of). If they can’t do such simple things, what makes you think they know when to begin a song or make a response to the Psalm?

 

[Sarabande]

Not an Air Traffic Controller, all his work is verbal and he’s never seen. I think you’re thinking of ramp agents, those guys who use hand signals to tell planes where to park.

hahahaha! Well, you learn something new everday. I guess we’ll have to call those kinds of cantors “Ramp Agents” from now on.

 

[nan]

I love daily Mass. Our priest sings the entrance hymn,etc. in a normal voice - by which I mean a voice in a range other people can join in. Very soothing, easy to follow. No screeching sopranos(sorry if I offend anyone).

 

[Sarabande]

Hmmm … plenty of people in the parishes round here don’t seem to know the other responses, nor when to sit, stand and kneel (although each church does it exactly the same, there aren’t any mavericks that I know of). If they can’t do such simple things, what makes you think they know when to begin a song or make a response to the Psalm?

I suppose it really does depend on the area or the parish. You probably would need those kinds of cantors then. Although, I have to admit that I’ve never been to a parish where the majority of people didn’t know what to do at all for a regular Sunday mass - even at our cathedral parish where lots of people come from around the country and world. The only time I see it happen is during a wedding mass or a funeral. That’s when it looks as if people are either not Catholic or just seems to forget what happens at mass.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

Not an Air Traffic Controller, all his work is verbal and he’s never seen. I think you’re thinking of ramp agents, those guys who use hand signals to tell planes where to park.

I feel insulted when I am treated as though it were my first time at Mass. I don’t think I’m alone in that either. As for those whose first time it is, I think we can help them know when to jump in without hand signals from anyone.

You should not feel insulted. Many pieces of music are performed in different ways all over. A new piece may be unfamiliar, so the cantor may intone it once and then signal for you to repeat it. Sometimes the music is not very clear on WHEN you are supposed to enter.

As for standard hymns to the tune of “Hymn to Joy” or something along those lines, there is no need for gestures; it should be obvious.

 

[Sarabande]

As a soprano, I have actually requested a few things to be transposed down for the sake of the congregation. If I can sing it in my “best” range, it’s going to be too high for the folks in the pews.

There are a few hymns in our parish which are published in two different keys. I also prefer it when it is done in the lower key. We used to have this horrible organ player (I won’t call him organist as he was no musician and did not know how to play).that did the low masses who loved doing everything in the higher key. I finally asked him to just play it in the lower key for the congregation. I soon realized that he tended to do them in the higher keys because they were easier for him to play - not that he could play the right keys or keep a steady rhythm anyway. For those masses, you definitely did need us to lead the congregation. Otherwise they would have been totally lost by that guy’s slop.

I am glad to be in a parish now which has the cantors sing from the organ loft. There is no reason to go up front to the ambo and “conduct” the Psalm; they know when to come in (if they even bother to sing at all).

You are so lucky. I love doing the funerals and weddings for that reason too - I’m in the choir loft.

 

[Phemie]

You should not feel insulted. Many pieces of music are performed in different ways all over. A new piece may be unfamiliar, so the cantor may intone it once and then signal for you to repeat it. Sometimes the music is not very clear on WHEN you are supposed to enter.

As for standard hymns to the tune of “Hymn to Joy” or something along those lines, there is no need for gestures; it should be obvious.

In our parish we don’t see the cantor, they sing from the choir and don’t direct traffic. We know when to sing.

The only place where I’ve experienced it regularly was when I was away from home taking courses in liturgy. Every school day started with Morning Prayer and ended with Evening Prayer. We were all there studying the same thing and for 6 weeks, twice a day we experienced these gesticulating cantors. I usually kept my eyes on my hymnal and avoided looking at the cantors, they just bugged me.

But it takes all kinds. One of my classes was ‘Evaluating Liturgy’ and as part of that we were simply asked to recall what had enhanced or hindered our worship. One gal mentioned that the cantor’s down sweep of the hand to invite us to sing had felt particularly unwelcoming. Huh??? This was one gal who had her own idea of what a cantor ought to be doing and a down sweep was not it, she had to bring her hand up.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

As a soprano, I have actually requested a few things to be transposed down for the sake of the congregation. If I can sing it in my “best” range, it’s going to be too high for the folks in the pews.

I am glad to be in a parish now which has the cantors sing from the organ loft. There is no reason to go up front to the ambo and “conduct” the Psalm; they know when to come in (if they even bother to sing at all).

The ambo is the place where scripture is properly proclaimed. The psalm is scripture. Therefore it is the proper place for the cantor to proclaim it.

You say “if they even bother to sing at all” in your post. Could it be that a well trained and competent cantor leading them and helping them know when to come in could get them to sing a bit more?

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

In our parish we don’t see the cantor, they sing from the choir and don’t direct traffic. We know when to sing.
The only place where I’ve experienced it regularly was when I was away from home taking courses in liturgy. Every school day started with Morning Prayer and ended with Evening Prayer. We were all there studying the same thing and for 6 weeks, twice a day we experienced these gesticulating cantors. I usually kept my eyes on my hymnal and avoided looking at the cantors, they just bugged me.

But it takes all kinds. One of my classes was ‘Evaluating Liturgy’ and as part of that we were simply asked to recall what had enhanced or hindered our worship. One gal mentioned that the cantor’s down sweep of the hand to invite us to sing had felt particularly unwelcoming. Huh??? This was one gal who had her own idea of what a cantor ought to be doing and a down sweep was not it, she had to bring her hand up.

Perhaps YOU read music quite well and know each and every time when to sing. That is not the case with everyone in your congregation.

As for “directing traffic”, a simple gesture inviting everyone to come in shouldn’t be any more dramatic or complicated than that. So I’m not sure how it can be so distracting if it is indeed done correctly.

 

[KathleenElsie]

Remember that there might be someone sitting in the pews that is new and needs the cues given. Today at the conformation Mass the priest told people when to stand and when to sit. I was not insulted it seemed logical that there might be people there that were not Catholics yet they wanted to celebrate with us.

 

[Sarabande]

Perhaps YOU read music quite well and know each and every time when to sing. That is not the case with everyone in your congregation.

This is true, but if an organist/pianist or other instrumentalist leading the music plays correctly, knows how to give a good intro to set the tempi and knows when to “breathe” prior to each verse, a congregation, whether or not they know how to read music, can do it. At the Protestant churches where I’ve been the “song leader”, they don’t use gestures at all. It’s all how the organist “breathes” and they all come in when they’re supposed to.

I’m not saying that having cantors are bad. They aren’t and can many times be very helpful.

As for “directing traffic”, a simple gesture inviting everyone to come in shouldn’t be any more dramatic or complicated than that. So I’m not sure how it can be so distracting if it is indeed done correctly.

The discreet gestures aren’t bad. I typically don’t like doing gestures myself, but will do discreet ones because I had been instructed to make gestures and also because sometimes there is a need for a gesture if it looks like the congregation is in some kind of trouble. But the discreet gestures are not always the case. There are people who direct traffic, who do the overflourishes with their hands or try to conduct when it’s clear they don’t know how. I don’t know if that is what the cantor wants him/herself, or if they are instructed to do that by the director/priest, etc. One thing is for certain - there needs to be some kind of mandatory training in all dioceses and parishes to avoid the inconsistancies and curb the kind of problems people here have been discussing. I know - idealist, but that truly would be the ideal. It’s clear that there are parishes or dioceses who do have this. But I know it’s not the case in my diocese and many other diocese.

I talk about this like the gesture thing really bothers me. Actually, the times when I’m not cantoring, I don’t look at the cantor, so it doesn’t really bother me how he or she is flinging her arms, unless it’s so over-the-top I can’t help but look.

 

[Phemie]

Perhaps YOU read music quite well and know each and every time when to sing. That is not the case with everyone in your congregation.

I don’t read music and neither do most of my congregation (or half the choir for that matter).

 

[CarrieH]

You say “if they even bother to sing at all” in your post. Could it be that a well trained and competent cantor leading them and helping them know when to come in could get them to sing a bit more?

It’s highly doubtful; it’s not just the Psalm they aren’t singing. If they don’t even crack open a hymnal to sing such familiar classics as “Holy God, We Praise Thy Name,” it’s not going to matter who is trying to lead them, whether it’s professionally-trained CarrieH or “Singing-in-the-shower” Suzy. At the cathedral downtown, they have professional cantors, one of whom is a professor of voice at one of the local colleges. He has a glorious baritone voice which is not at all overpowering in an operatic sense, and his vocal range would be comfortable for even the most musically-challenged. Most of the people don’t sing along with him, either. And if they won’t sing when he leads them, they won’t sing for anyone!

 

[brotherhrolf]

I don’t read music and neither do most of my congregation (or half the choir for that matter).

I have extreme difficulty in reading music. My sight reading abilities are abysmal. I know what the notes mean and the rhythm but that’s about it. I rely upon my ears and my memory. In the final analysis, I “learn” my part and have for the last 25 years. That’s why three hours of practice each week is so essential. We have four paid section leaders in our choir of 25. There are other sopranos and altos who can read music. The rest of us are “bozos on the bus”.

Tapes are made. I play that tenor tape in the truck on the way to work and home and I sing and learn my part. Once the part is memorized, it is in my repertoire. I can sing either tenor part. I learn both parts in case someone doesn’t show.

Are we the Met chorus? Not by a long shot. But my sons were exposed to the Catholic music of our heritage. Chant, polyphony, and the war horses are part of their experience.

PS. My cathedral parish sings! It took along time. Lord knows in 1983 when I joined the choir they didn’t. But they will if you persist. We seperate the choir and put them on either side of the side aisle for a post Communion hymn. We sing “Seek Ye First the Kingdom of God” from Worship III as a round. If you could see the looks on some faces as they realize they are singing in harmony, it is well worth it.

 

[CarrieH]

I don’t read music and neither do most of my congregation (or half the choir for that matter).

I can’t for the life of me figure out why people who are in the choir don’t learn to read music. Choir participation is SO much easier when you can read your parts (and easier yet when you can sit down at the piano and play through it!). If a person can see those signs along the highway with just the symbols and no words and figure out what they mean, they can learn to read music; it’s the same sort of symbolic language. Sure, it looks complicated at first, but when you break it down into bits and pieces, it all fits together and there you are! If you go to the websites of any of the major booksellers and type in “read music,” you will come up with all kinds of self-study books, software, etc. I know people will say that they don’t have the time to learn, but if they only realized how much time they will save in preparing for choir practice, it would more than balance out. One of the local choir directors decided to teach music-reading to his choir people, so each week he would give them just one concept and incorporate that with what they had already learned. In just five minutes per session, he made good progress with these people in a year’s time. Bravo to him! So if any of you are thinking of learning to read music, go for it – it isn’t rocket science. After all, look at some of those airhead bimbo pop-stars. If they can read music, you can too!