Cap & Trade Bill

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Al_Masetti

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NO IDEA if this is the right place for this thread:

For US members:

HR 2454 American Clean Energy And Security Act of 2009

Our splendid solons are rushing through the “American Clean Energy and
Security Act” -cap and trade. The bill has grown by 25% in the last
week, from 946 to more than 1200 pages. It seems to be another of the
current fashion- shove it through before anyone has had a chance to
study. Wonderful for special interests and government power.

The House will likely vote on it Friday. You may wish to tell your
congressman what you think. Here’s a link to find contact information:
congress.org/congressorg/directory/congdir.tt

Here’s the full bill title and number:

opencongress.org/bill/111-h2454/show
 
The passage of this bill will be a calamity. A lot of experts refer to it as the largest tax increase ever! Its insane…Roanoker
 
roanoker said:
The passage of this bill will be a calamity. A lot of experts refer to it as the largest tax increase ever! Its insane…Roanoker
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Well believing in global warming causes ideas like this to pop up. ohwell.
 
It will be the largest tax increase ever. It will be a drag on the economy for decades to come. If this bill passes, I will just resign myself to continuing recession for the remainder of my life.
 
The crazy thing about this bill is that its supporters come right out and say that it is designed to hurt our GDP by raising the cost of doing business at every level from production to consumption.

Very simply, as costs rise, companies will export their operations to countries that don’t have these kinds of regulations- meaning more americans will lose their jobs. So in one fell swoop, our representatives simultaneously put more people out of work and raised their cost of living.

And what’s even crazier about this bill is that it won’t do anything to “save” the environment- companies can simply buy “carbon credits” to offset the fictional “carbon footprint” the government arbitrarily assigns them- without making changes to their operations. Sure, the bill claims that it will slowly decrease the availability of those “carbon credits,” but that just means that smaller businesses who can’t afford to either pay the higher premiums for those credits OR retool with “green” technologies will be put out of business while the big companies just cut jobs and raise prices to pay for more expensive “carbon credits.”

But that’s what makes it all OK, right?- because the revenue the government pulls in from selling carbon credits will go to pay the welfare and healthcare bills for all those people it put out of work.

So, once again- the government creates a massive crisis, and then claims that the solution to the crisis is to expand the role of government and make more people dependent upon the state for their basic needs.
 
Oscarthecat said:
The crazy thing about this bill is that its supporters come right out and say that it is designed to hurt our GDP by raising the cost of doing business at every level from production to consumption.

Very simply, as costs rise, companies will export their operations to countries that don’t have these kinds of regulations- meaning more Americans will lose their jobs. So in one fell swoop, our representatives simultaneously put more people out of work and raised their cost of living.

And what’s even crazier about this bill is that it won’t do anything to “save” the environment- companies can simply buy “carbon credits” to offset the fictional “carbon footprint” the government arbitrarily assigns them- without making changes to their operations. Sure, the bill claims that it will slowly decrease the availability of those “carbon credits,” but that just means that smaller businesses who can’t afford to either pay the higher premiums for those credits OR retool with “green” technologies will be put out of business while the big companies just cut jobs and raise prices to pay for more expensive “carbon credits.”

But that’s what makes it all OK, right?- because the revenue the government pulls in from selling carbon credits will go to pay the welfare and healthcare bills for all those people it put out of work.

So, once again- the government creates a massive crisis, and then claims that the solution to the crisis is to expand the role of government and make more people dependent upon the state for their basic needs.
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Oscar:

I watched CNN “Money Line” a couple of hours ago. The expert from the Wall Street Journal stated that, in the EU, Cap & Trade has caused the loss of 2 “Manufacturing Jobs” for every “Green Job” created by the compliance regime. The expert who was promoting "Cap & Trade didn’t deny that fact - He just refused to speak to the fact & claimed that “Global Warming” was such an emergency we had to act NOW no matter what the consequences to our economy…

It seems that whenever these “Global Warming” advocates talk about “the need for immediate action”, they forget that most of the planet is exempt from their protocols, which means their immediate action will do little (if any) good, and that real people will lose their jobs and not be able to feed & house real families.

If they were concerned about action that would do real good, and not just about action that would give them more control over our lives, these “environmentalists” would take some of money “Cap & Trade” is going to cost us and invest it in making alternative sources of energy (solar, wind, geothermal, tidal bore, etc.) more accessible and affordable to more people. They would take the rest of money they’re demanding we spend on “Cap & Trade” and use it to repair our nation’s infrastructure, install ultra high speed rail as they have in Europe & Japan and help our automobile industry create and build cars people will want to buy that run on something else besides gasoline.

That would be a far better use of our country’s resources, and would give a far better outcome for all of us that giving the government almost absolute control over what’s left of economy after it’s been driven into the ground by this “Cap & Trade” shell game.

“Cap & Trade” might make the Environmentalists FEEL Good, but it will NOT DO good. In fact, It will DO HARM. I was taught, “First, do NO Harm!” I think we need to remind our representatives about that rule of governance.

Your Brother & Servant in Christ, Michael
 
Bills like this are the start of a new trend, Mass international welfare. These jobs are designed to level the standard of living around the world. Liberals think we are all too rich and feel we need to lower out standard of living to match that of third world countries. These bills will worsen the ecconomic situation here but will improve the ecconomy in many other countries whom are not subject to the bill. Look at the auto industry that has been forced out of the United States and the number of consumer goods that are made in China.

But keepin mind that this was the first administration elected by perpetual welfare recipients for perpetual welfare recipients. They are all to willing to once again stick it to the “rich” when they feel they will not have to pay for these bills and when they will not be loosing their jobs.
 
Oscarthecat said:
And what’s even crazier about this bill is that it won’t do anything to “save” the environment- companies can simply buy “carbon credits” to offset the fictional “carbon footprint” the government arbitrarily assigns them- without making changes to their operations.
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Sort of like the Jack Chick version of “selling indulgences.” You can keep doing the “sin,” you just have to pay for it; or rather, have everybody else pay for it.

(May apologies for misrepresenting indulgences, which are really nothing like that.)
 
This thread seems to have precisely identified the fatal flaw in the worldview behind this bill. That worldview is that the economic order we have today is fixed and cannot substantially change. Therefore, there is no need to check and see if one’s legislation will actually encourage capitalists to invest in third world countries with NO environmental laws to avoid compliance and manufacture a cheaper product. Then that guy will “Out-Walmart” the guy still trying to make it in the USA and put him out of business.

It’s a viscious cycle, but nobody seems to care. The funny thing is that we’ve ALREADY got much tougher environmental standards than most of the world. By shifting manufacturing elsewhere, the product now is produced in filthy factories and then shipped halfway across the Earth to get here. How is THAT a benefit to the environment?? It’s not.

My own opinion is that we’ve totally lost this government. The Republicans only care about the business class rich (CEOs, Wall Street, entrepenuers) and the Dems only care about the ‘big money’ rich (Gates, Soros, Rockefeller, etc…). They both do some lip service to others, but these are their real priorities and their policies all show it.
 
Many of my fellow Catholics (54%) elected Barack Obama to the presidency despite the bishops plea to make life the preeminent issue. Most of these people always point to the reason that the democrats are stronger on social justice. I have always contended that Social Justice can be achieved by through the private sector better than through the government and as such the argument that the democrats are stronger on social justice issues is false.

That said many Catholics disagreed with me and now for their efforts we have a govenrment that promotes abortion, euthenasia and unethical bio experiments and the cherry on the sundae is Cap & Trade which in the name of Global Warming will put the United States into a Depression. I hope that Social Justice thing is working for everyone. I will see you all in the soup line.:eek:
 
Say hello to increases in your electric bill. Especially if your local power company gets any percentage of power from carbon emitting sources. Coal for instance.

The US is to coal what Saudi Arabia is to oil. An abudant source of power and we are going to make it difficult to mine, and expensive to burn, sell, or transport. Then once we do use it. They will tax the heck out of it.

Oh, by the way. . The government will increase your taxes for this. Oh, but guess what? Do you think they will use 100% of the increase for this purpose? Heck no. Maybe 30%. The rest will go to pet projects and other useless junk. :mad:
 
Sen. Inhofe (R, OK) was interviewed on Fox News yesterday (June 29, 2009) re. a suppressed EPA report which stated that there is no evidence of global warming in the last half century. It further stated that, if anything, there is a slight cooling. Inhofe promises hearings after the summer recess.
 
Cubsfan said:
Many of my fellow Catholics (54%) elected Barack Obama to the presidency despite the bishops plea to make life the preeminent issue. Most of these people always point to the reason that the democrats are stronger on social justice. I have always contended that Social Justice can be achieved by through the private sector better than through the government and as such the argument that the democrats are stronger on social justice issues is false.

That said many Catholics disagreed with me and now for their efforts we have a govenrment that promotes abortion, euthenasia and unethical bio experiments and the cherry on the sundae is Cap & Trade which in the name of Global Warming will put the United States into a Depression. I hope that Social Justice thing is working for everyone. I will see you all in the soup line.:eek:
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👍 What justice is there in taking from one who earns and gives to one who does not earn. Why not help give those who do not have the tools needded to earn it for themselves.
 
Al_Masetti said:
NO IDEA if this is the right place for this thread:

For US members:

HR 2454 American Clean Energy And Security Act of 2009

Our splendid solons are rushing through the “American Clean Energy and
Security Act” -cap and trade. The bill has grown by 25% in the last
week, from 946 to more than 1200 pages. It seems to be another of the
current fashion- shove it through before anyone has had a chance to
study. Wonderful for special interests and government power.

The House will likely vote on it Friday. You may wish to tell your
congressman what you think. Here’s a link to find contact information:
congress.org/congressorg/directory/congdir.tt

Here’s the full bill title and number:

opencongress.org/bill/111-h2454/show
Click to expand...
Hmm, a 1200 page bill, which includes a 300 page addendum submitted the morning of the vote. Anyone care to guess how many of “our” representatives actually read this behemoth? I’m guessing zero.

This is the biggest problem with our government today. Massive bills that are not read by those who claim to represent us, and then go against the majority opinion of their constituents because it’s needed to “save the environment, curb inflation, save the banks, save the auto industry, etc.” And they get rushed through before anyone outside the government has a chance to read them.

Anyone who thinks those in congress still look out for the nation’s best interest is not paying attention.

BTB - I heard the interstate highway act was a grand total of 24 pages long. When was the last time congress actually voted on a bill of substance that was that short.
 
MHalsey said:
BTB - I heard the interstate highway act was a grand total of 24 pages long. When was the last time congress actually voted on a bill of substance that was that short.
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Slight digression, but I see this in my profession as well (civil engineering). They built those interstate highways with some basic survey info and perhaps 10 pages of drawings per mile.

Today, just widening a mile of interstate requires an environmental impact study, drainage studies, wetland studies, 100 pages of drawings and details, 500 pages of specifications and legalese, and numerous attorneys and consultants.

We probably spend more on the design and approval bureacracy today than they did on building the darn things just 50 years ago.
 
MHalsey said:
…

Anyone who thinks those in congress still look out for the nation’s best interest is not paying attention.
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I have three words for you 'Congressional Term Limits" The sort of corruption we are seeing is because we have congressmen and senators that serve for life. You may say “…the voters keep putting them in…” the problem that I see is that special interest groups keep these guys in office by purchasing their reelection through various donations. Also, if the voters of a state like ohhhhhh Massachusetts decide to keep putting the same person into office, this person despite various pecadillos gets undue influence in influencing our government.:cool:
 
Cubsfan said:
I have three words for you 'Congressional Term Limits" The sort of corruption we are seeing is because we have congressmen and senators that serve for life. You may say “…the voters keep putting them in…” the problem that I see is that special interest groups keep these guys in office by purchasing their reelection through various donations. Also, if the voters of a state like ohhhhhh Massachusetts decide to keep putting the same person into office, this person despite various pecadillos gets undue influence in influencing our government.:cool:
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I completely agree. But the odds that 2/3 of congress will vote for an amendment to the constitution are pretty much zilch. And even if the impossible happened, getting 3/4 of the states to ratify could take forever. And I don’t see 2/3 of the states proposing it either, which is the only other way an amendment can be introduced. Sadly this will never happen.
 
joedaddy27 said:
Noooooooooooooooooooooooo! :crying:

ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=96313
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Who is Bishop Howard Hubbard?

I know nothing of this man, but I would bet that he is one of those “social justice” catholics.

I do not mean to demean social justice, but, I believe that conservatives for far too long have ceded the position to liberals. The philosphical fallacy is that achievment of social justice = direct government intervention. I think social justice is better achieved through use of programs that promote growth; for those who are truly destitute and need help a combination of private philanthropy and well managed government assistance can be used.

Social Justice does not and should not be equated to “new deal” programs that only treat symptoms and not the cause of poverty.

I believe that 55 million abortions has a direct impact on growth and the current calamity we are in is the result of this demonic folly that has been perpetuated by the social justice crowd who have backed feminists and environmentalists in their population control measures, because somehow they care more about the poor.

The social justice crowd has not tried to eliminate poverty they are actively trying to erradicate the poor. What is truly sad is that the poor are lining up and marching into the theoretical gas chambers and not uttering a word of protest and in fact are giving a thumbs up and voting for more.

To any business man or corporate CEO who is told by the charitable arm of his company that they want to give money to NARAL or Planned Parenthood the response of that CEO should be…"why do I want to kill my future customers? "
 
“Bishop Howard Hubbard, who chairs the US bishops’ committee on international justice and peace; and Ken Hackett, the president of Catholic Relief Services, welcomed the introduction of the Waxman-Markey bill. They criticized the legislation only because, in their view, it did not include adequate funding to protect the poor-- in the US and abroad-- from the bill’s economic impact.”(emphasis added) Not to worry, the net effect of the legislation will be to make us all poor, thereby ensuring equality.

I agree with Cubsfan in the previous post that abortion also has a negative economic impact. Declining populations in developed countries mean a decreased tax base, a shrinking customer base for businesses, and demographically driven economic downturn. Meanwhile with this bill we want to apply to the shrinking tax base the largest tax increase in the history of mankind.
 
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