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fix
Guest
I am not advising anyone to disregard the Pope’s words in any matter. I am suggesting we ought not claim the Church is teaching something that She, in fact, is not teaching.
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Neo_Canaan
Guest
Justice? Mo’ like revenge, plain and simple, like it was a way of life. When killers die, they go stright to hell, thus wasting a soul that would’ve had a chance to repent. We want heaven’s quota to increase, NOT hell’s!! There can NEVER be any sastifaction by wanting somone dead.On the contrary it is not the Church that is being pressured but rather the Church informing the State of what is ethical and what is not. Your statement about just war is incorrect but has been treated in other places including the Catechism so I will not discuss it further.
Your statement about forgiving our enemies is correct and forgiveness is necessary. However, I do not believe that you understand forgiveness. Forgiveness does not necessitate the avoidance of justice. For instance God forgives all for their sins and has forgiven all for their sin through the Cross. However, this does not negate the justice of God which demands not only repentance but satisfaction. Satisfaction is the imposed penalty for sin. This penalty is served on earth through making reparation and after death through purgation if complete satisfaction is not made on earth. However, just because God has forgiven does not mean the transgressor seeks that forgiveness and so that lack of desire for forgiveness has a penalty of eternal damnation. This is analogous to the use of Capital Punishment.
In crime against persons there are two types of forgiveness. The first is commutation which is the decision to not offer penalty or to give reduced penalty to the person as a free act. This is not necessary under the dictum of justice. Secondly there is the forgiveness given by the person(s) harmed which is a disposition. However, satisfaction is still necessary. Thus, apart from commutation justice demands a just penalty for an offense against persons. This must be proportionate to the crime. For instance restitution which can come in the form of labor, goods or time given either in freedom or in prison. For some crimes there is a more final judgment given by the State on behalf of the person injured (as all crimes are offenses against the State and the individual). If the ethical norms are met this can result in the use of Capital Punishment if and only if the requirements for such are just and fitting to the crime not as retaliation but as a function of justice. As can be seen this natural order reflects the divine order of the relationship between justice and mercy.
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fix
Guest
How do you know who goes straight to hell?Justice? Mo’ like revenge, plain and simple, like it was a way of life. When killers die, they go stright to hell, thus wasting a soul that would’ve had a chance to repent. We want heaven’s quota to increase, NOT hell’s!! There can NEVER be any sastifaction by wanting somone dead.
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Neo_Canaan
Guest
Trust me. It’s what everyone tells me. And did it ever occur, that there is the possibility that the wrong person could get state murdered? What’s the state killer going to say, “Sorry, the state made a mistake,” and pay for the funeral expenses? Some people were earmarked for death row on false charges that way, and died as such. And what if the real killers had friends that vowed revenge on the state killers that personally did the death sessions on the killers? They’d stalk those state killers and assassinated them in revenge.How do you know who goes straight to hell?
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fix
Guest
Why? I trust the Church as She speaks as Christ.Trust me. It’s what everyone tells me.
I do not argue that the state makes mistakes and unjustly administers the death penalty. That is not the argument. Your argument is the state as no authority in the matter and that all killing is murder. That stance is the problem that I argue against.And did it ever occur, that there is the possibility that the wrong person could get state murdered? What’s the state killer going to say, “Sorry, the state made a mistake,” and pay for the funeral expenses? Some people were earmarked for death row on false charges that way, and died as such. And what if the real killers had friends that vowed revenge on the state killers that personally did the death sessions on the killers? They’d stalk those state killers and assassinated them in revenge.
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Neo_Canaan
Guest
We must say no to the devil of death, revenge and denial of repentance for someone.
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fix
Guest
As long as those are properly understood.We must say no to the devil of death, revenge and denial of repentance for someone.
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dch1983
Guest
fix, I was not directing my last comment at you specifically, but instead posing it as a question about what I have read in general. No attack intended… sorry for the confusion.I am not advising anyone to disregard the Pope’s words in any matter. I am suggesting we ought not claim the Church is teaching something that She, in fact, is not teaching.
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dch1983
Guest
…and just an additional question here (that may belong in another string): how can the Pope oppose something that the Church approves of? Again, I’m being inquisitive and trying to learn, not being sarcastic…I am not advising anyone to disregard the Pope’s words in any matter. I am suggesting we ought not claim the Church is teaching something that She, in fact, is not teaching.
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fix
Guest
My point is often times it seems as if some want to make capital punishment a type of intrinsically evil action meaning it is wrong in and of itself. The CCC says differently.fix, I was not directing my last comment at you specifically, but instead posing it as a question about what I have read in general. No attack intended… sorry for the confusion.
Yes, the last Pope very much thought the death penalty was not needed at this time. My question is does that mean he intended to bind everyone’s conscience to that belief?
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mlchance
Guest
Even that is an overstatement. JPII thought that capital punishment was rarely ever needed in modern societies that (in theory) have the ability to protect people from capital offenders without recourse to execution.Yes, the last Pope very much thought the death penalty was not needed at this time.
JPII never stated that capital punishment is immoral, and the Church’s teaching is still quite clear that the state, on a case-by-case, does have the authority to administer the death penalty for the most serious of crimes.
– Mark L. Chance.
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dch1983
Guest
Can the US be considered one of these modern societies? If you ask me, I would say yes. And if we don’t have “the ability to protect people from capital offenders without recourse to execution”, should we not strive to improve our prisons and justice system rather than resort to capital punishment? It seems to me that the taking of a life should be the absolute last option, and I think it is safe to say that it clearly is not in our justice system.Even that is an overstatement. JPII thought that capital punishment was rarely ever needed in modern societies that (in theory) have the ability to protect people from capital offenders without recourse to execution.
JPII never stated that capital punishment is immoral, and the Church’s teaching is still quite clear that the state, on a case-by-case, does have the authority to administer the death penalty for the most serious of crimes.
– Mark L. Chance.
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dch1983
Guest
I am, I believe, in the process of converting to Catholicism. I have been reading and praying over so many aspects of the Catholic faith. Protestants typically find a number of things to be roadblocks to embracing the Catholic faith which are not obstacles for me: The Eucharist, Mary and the Saints, the liturgy, the Church’s position on contraception, maturbation, etc… I do not have a problem with any of these. Sure, everything about the Catholic Church is not the easiest to accept, especially not being raised Catholic. But deep down it all makes so much sense, whether you like what the Church says or not (non-Catholics, of course, commonly dislike the Church’s teaching on contraception). But I can’t see how the Church supports capital punishment. I’m not disputing WHETHER OR NOT it does… just, how can it???
This will not affect my journey that is taking me to Christ’s true Church, but it is something that I will certainly need to gain a better understanding of…
This will not affect my journey that is taking me to Christ’s true Church, but it is something that I will certainly need to gain a better understanding of…
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fix
Guest
I agree and I thought I made that clear.Even that is an overstatement. JPII thought that capital punishment was rarely ever needed in modern societies that (in theory) have the ability to protect people from capital offenders without recourse to execution.
JPII never stated that capital punishment is immoral, and the Church’s teaching is still quite clear that the state, on a case-by-case, does have the authority to administer the death penalty for the most serious of crimes.
– Mark L. Chance.
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fix
Guest
I do not know if you saw this link in post #8I am, I believe, in the process of converting to Catholicism. I have been reading and praying over so many aspects of the Catholic faith. Protestants typically find a number of things to be roadblocks to embracing the Catholic faith which are not obstacles for me: The Eucharist, Mary and the Saints, the liturgy, the Church’s position on contraception, maturbation, etc… I do not have a problem with any of these. Sure, everything about the Catholic Church is not the easiest to accept, especially not being raised Catholic. But deep down it all makes so much sense, whether you like what the Church says or not (non-Catholics, of course, commonly dislike the Church’s teaching on contraception). But I can’t see how the Church supports capital punishment. I’m not disputing WHETHER OR NOT it does… just, how can it???
This will not affect my journey that is taking me to Christ’s true Church, but it is something that I will certainly need to gain a better understanding of…
firstthings.com/ftissues/…es/dulles.html? I think it has some good info. It is not exhaustive, but a good place to start.
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Neo_Canaan
Guest
Not me.Sooner or later, according to St. john, there will be no death, so capital punishment is STILL immoral. So PLLLLLLLL!! on the death penalty. Long live life in jail with no parole.I agree.
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fix
Guest
Your understanding seems to contradict what the Church teaches. Why do you think you have more authority than She?Not me.Sooner or later, according to St. john, there will be no death, so capital punishment is STILL immoral. So PLLLLLLLL!! on the death penalty. Long live life in jail with no parole.
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Neo_Canaan
Guest
Did you stop 2 think that the church only did so to appease the secular masses? I would bring every death machine technictian (sorry, bad spelling) to the nearest priest and make them repent, and make them church memers instead.
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fix
Guest
Are you joking? The Church is the authority. Where do you derive your authority?Did you stop 2 think that the church only did so to appease the secular masses? I would bring every death machine technictian (sorry, bad spelling) to the nearest priest and make them repent, and make them church memers instead.
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mosher
Guest
The short form resume is:Are you speaking from a state’s point of view in the beginning of your statement? Because I always understood Christ’s teaching to be to turn the other cheek and that vengeance was God’s not ours. I found that fairly clear.
Mosher, you speak with some authority, are you a priest or in Church leadership in some way? Just wondering, so that I will know if I am completely off base.
I am a former and future seminarian with much formal education is philosophy and theology with a primary focus in ethics/bioethics, Thomism/Platonism/Personalism/Neo-Thomism/Existentialism/Realism in philosophy and Dogmatic and Moral Theology based primarily in St. Thomas but also with a little of von Balthasaar. I also teach and am a published author in a catholic publication.
I am writing from the point of view of the Church as She understand revelation on this point. It is a rejected idea that forgiveness negates essential satisfaction. It has to do with the gravity of the wrong and the public nature of the wrong.
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