Capital punishment

[pnewton]

Dr Paul:

I recall that it was common practice in the old testament days to “doom” an entire city after conquering it to prevent the infiltration of the defeated people’s culture into the victor’s society.

I do not know how common the practice was in among all peoples, but the references in the Bible refer to God ordering this done, which he did on several occasions. I do not think this practice had any bearing on the death penalty, other than to prove that “Thou shall not kill” can not be taken to mean no taking of life, period. It instead must be understood to mean, " thou shall not murder."

As far as whether this practice was moral, what can we say, except it was God’s idea and we do not have the right to second guess Him.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Dr Paul:

I recall that it was common practice in the old testament days to “doom” an entire city after conquering it to prevent the infiltration of the defeated people’s culture into the victor’s society. This included the killing not only of combatants but women and children as well. It is stated that this was “God’s will” as the people of the time understood it. Few would argue that such treatment of innocent noncombatants would be anything less than murder in our present society. Seems to me that one should be very cautious in trying to justify capital punishment by looking to killing in the old testament.

I agree that if someone, claiming to be God’s prophet, came and told the Pope to genocide a community, this “prophet” would be highly suspect. Doing such a thing in this day and age would be regarded by all of Christianity and the world as an atrocity.

On the other hand. When Jesus is aqusing the Pharisees of throwing out God’s law and replacing it with their own traditions, He uses God’s command to put to death those who dishonor parents as his example. Should we throw out God’s Old Testament command to put to death those who dishonor parents in place of the Christian traditions we have today?

Personally I think the Church is right in not putting to death those who curse parents, at this time. Still I do not see Jesus in the New Testament as opposing capital punishment for those who curse parents.

I do think that Jesus put the emphasis on New Testament Spiritual capital punishment over Old Testament physical capital punishment. Anathema Apostolic Power to call upon Jesus to “bind sin in heaven” which causes spiritual eternal death is an infinitely deadlier form of capital punishment than physical capital punishment. Please visit Throwing Stones

NAB MAR 7:9

He went on to say: "You have made a fine art of setting aside God’s commandment in the interests of keeping your traditions! For example, Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and in another place, 'Whoever curses father or mother shall be put to death.’ Yet you declare, If a person says to his father or mother, Any support you might have had from me is korban’ (that is, dedicated to God), you allow him to do nothing more for his father or mother. That is the way you nullify God’s word in favor of the traditions you have handed on."

**NAB EXO 21:17 **

"Whoever curses his father or mother shall be put to death."

​

ANATHEMA

"Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints,** in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate**,

Quoted from New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia
newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm

**NAB JOH 20:20 **

At the sight of the Lord the disciples rejoiced. “Peace be with you,” he said again. “As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” Then he breathed on them and said: "Recieve the Holy Spirit. If you forgive men’s sins, they are forgiven them; if you hold them bound, they are held bound."

 

[BlestOne]

My response is that it is never permissible. Why? Because you are taking away the chance at eternal salvation of that individual. If you sentence them to death you are taking away the time they may need to become truly sorry for their sins and therefore they cannot make a good act of contrition, we don’t have the right to do this only God does. It is his hand that guides us and it is his hand that decides when it is our time to go. I wouldn’t want God mad at me for taking away his authority. Lock them up for life, get them counselling, whatever but we do not have the right to sentence a person to death. I struggle with this constantly because I want my children to grow up safe…but it is not my right and I won’t take that right away from God Almighty!

 

[Steven_Merten]

BlestOne:

My response is that it is never permissible. Why? Because you are taking away the chance at eternal salvation of that individual. If you sentence them to death you are taking away the time they may need to become truly sorry for their sins and therefore they cannot make a good act of contrition, we don’t have the right to do this only God does. It is his hand that guides us and it is his hand that decides when it is our time to go. I wouldn’t want God mad at me for taking away his authority. Lock them up for life, get them counselling, whatever but we do not have the right to sentence a person to death. I struggle with this constantly because I want my children to grow up safe…but it is not my right and I won’t take that right away from God Almighty!

Hello BlestOne,

So what do you do when God, who has the authority and right to put human life to death, commands man to put murders to death. Do you take it upon yourself to defy the will of God with your own will by saying “My response is that it is never permissible”?

**NAB GEN 9:6 **

"If anyone sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; For in the image of God has man been made."

 

[BlestOne]

Steven,
Genesis?..How about the new testament? How about Matthew…Judge not lest ye be judged? How about the 5th commandment? How about vengence is mine saith the Lord?

 

[pnewton]

BlestOne:

Steven,
Genesis?..How about the new testament? How about Matthew…Judge not lest ye be judged? How about the 5th commandment? How about vengence is mine saith the Lord?

So we should no judges whatsoever, no punishment of any sort and live in anarchy? Nothing above differentiates between capital punishment and any other punishment.

 

[mlchance]

BlestOne:

Genesis?..How about the new testament? How about Matthew…Judge not lest ye be judged? How about the 5th commandment? How about vengence is mine saith the Lord?

Capital punishment is condoned in the New Testament as well. And, incidentally, the God who authorized capital punishment in specific cases in the Old Testament is the same God who gave the Sermon on the Mount.

No one can correctly say capital punishment is always wrong. To do so contradicts both Scripture and Tradition.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Philip_P]

mlchance:

Capital punishment is condoned in the New Testament as well. And, incidentally, the God who authorized capital punishment in specific cases in the Old Testament is the same God who gave the Sermon on the Mount.

No one can correctly say capital punishment is always wrong. To do so contradicts both Scripture and Tradition.

– Mark L. Chance.

The argument isn’t that capital punishment is always wrong. It is that it is subject to strict conditions, and that those conditions do not exist in the U.S. today. Hence, capital punishment should not exist in the U.S.

 

[Dr_Paul]

mlchance:

No one can correctly say capital punishment is always wrong. To do so contradicts both Scripture and Tradition.

– Mark L. Chance.

I agree. Some may believe this, but if they do, they are not in agreement with Church teaching in this matter. The catechism, which is based upon both scripture and tradition is clear is saying that in principle there are circumstances that would require the use of capital punishment, but in reality, these circumnstances are very rare or nonexistent in our present society.

However, I would argure that the way in which capital punishment is used in our country today is contrary to Church teaching, both from scripture and tradition. It is frequently advocated and used when alternatives such as life without parole are available and effective to protect society.

 

[mlchance]

Philip P:

The argument isn’t that capital punishment is always wrong. It is that it is subject to strict conditions, and that those conditions do not exist in the U.S. today. Hence, capital punishment should not exist in the U.S.

That might be your argument, but others have flatly stated capital punishment is just plain wrong.

What’s more, your argument doesn’t hold water since it is a generalization. The question regarding capital punishment is a prudential matter. The answer changes depending on the specific case. There are people who, even after incarceration, remain a danger to society (other prisoners, guards, people outside of prison via criminal contacts, et cetera). Since it is just to use capital punishment when other moral means cannot protect society, capital punishment is a just punishment in these situations.

To repeat myself (with emphasis): The question is, “Is capital punishment the just punishment in this particular case?”

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Philip_P]

mlchance:

That might be your argument, but others have flatly stated capital punishment is just plain wrong.

What’s more, your argument doesn’t hold water since it is a generalization. The question regarding capital punishment is a prudential matter. The answer changes depending on the specific case. There are people who, even after incarceration, remain a danger to society (other prisoners, guards, people outside of prison via criminal contacts, et cetera). Since it is just to use capital punishment when other moral means cannot protect society, capital punishment is a just punishment in these situations.

To repeat myself (with emphasis): The question is, “Is capital punishment the just punishment in this particular case?”

– Mark L. Chance.

If you are stating that to claim capital punishment is always wrong, in all cases, from the beginning to the end of history, is incorrect, then I agree with that. If you are claiming that because we cannot categorically ban capital punishment from human history we also cannot ban it in present-day America, I completely disagree with you.

There are specific conditions in which capital punishment is acceptable (note that this is different from saying “required.” Morality says you may perform an action, not you ought.) Those conditions do not exist in present day America and have not existed for quite some time.

 

[johnshelby]

well, once again, that’s true… it’s probably true
that everyone involved knew the Roman’s didn’t
allow the Jews to execute anyone…

but, just as i said in the last post… i don’t think
Jesus used double talk… if he didn’t feel they had
the authority to punish her, then i believe he would
have said, the authority wasn’t theirs… but he didn’t
he simply said… let whoever is without sin cast the
first stone…

the church says the state has the right to impose
capital punishment where no other option for the
protection of the public is avaliable…

Catechism
2267
Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity with the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm—without definitively taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself—the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically non-existent.

and since i guess this is an ‘opinion’ issue… that’s my opinion…
humbly offered…

thanks…

 

[mlchance]

Philip P:

Those conditions do not exist in present day America and have not existed for quite some time.

You keep saying that like it’s true, as if a mere assertion demonstrates something.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Philip_P]

mlchance:

You keep saying that like it’s true, as if a mere assertion demonstrates something.

– Mark L. Chance.

Just echoing CCC and statements by Church officials. Some of these have been cited on this very thread (see posts 2 and 16, for instance). You also may want to read the article I linked to in post 25.

 

[Ray_Scheel]

Philip P:

The argument isn’t that capital punishment is always wrong. It is that it is subject to strict conditions, and that those conditions do not exist in the U.S. today. Hence, capital punishment should not exist in the U.S.

The problem with that argument is that you’d be hard pressed to find many people actually working in the prison systems of the U.S. that would agree with JPII that those conditions do not exist here today, especially when considering certain freedoms that generate security risks are either court ordered based on constitutional principles (e.g. serial killers beingallowed to communicate with thier fan clubs) and/or are mandated by longer-standing Church instruction on the ethical treatment of prisoners.

Though it might be possible to build prisons capable of the level of safety required to meet the conditions JPII alluded to, they don’t yet exist in the quantities necessary and cannot be built without incurring costs exponentially greater than current prison construction methods. By simply stating the conditions no longer exist, JPII did not will such facilities into existence.

There is a reason the Church has placed careful limits on the ability of the bishops to make teaching statements on areas outside of their competence, as too often its turned out they had basic facts wrong.

To address another point I saw mentioned by someone else: Expense shouldn’t be a reason to execute, as it has been well established that the cost of a death penalty trial and mandatory automatic appeals is far more than the possible lifetime cost of incarceration for a particular inmate. It is cheaper to just lock them up for life. The concern should focus on preserving the safety of society (including the guards) against both the incarcerated and those motivated by the fame or rethoric of particular criminals.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Philip P:

The argument isn’t that capital punishment is always wrong. It is that it is subject to strict conditions, and that those conditions do not exist in the U.S. today. Hence, capital punishment should not exist in the U.S.

Hello Philip,

Did God command that those who dishonor parents be put to death because He felt the Israelites had no way of properly incarserating such culprits? Or was it that God feared the Israelites would become as corupt as JP2 era Christian Europe? God gave His capital punishment commands from the stand point of having to destroy the whole world with a flood because it was so evil and corrupt. Rather than have the whole body of the Israelite Church be lead back into damnation, God commanded Moses to “cut off” that corupt portion of the body of the Church and cast it away. God’s thinking is that you do not let a portion of the body of the Church (individuals) drag the whole body of the Church into damnation.

Did Pope John Paul II take protecting the body of the Church as a whole into consideration when discussing physical and spiritual capital punishment of individuals or did he simply focus on what he thought was good for the individual culprits? I believe that whether or not a nation can afford safe incarseration should not be the deciding factor on capital punishment. Instead I think the Pope should focus on what it is going to take to turn a society as currupt as JP2 era Europe back to the path to eternal life.

In biblical terms to “cut off” a protion of the body of the Church means to put someone to death either physically or spiritually through anathema . God’s reason for capital punishment is not a lack of proper incarseration techneques but to protect the body of the Church as a whole from being lead into damnation by corrupt individuals.

NAB LEV 20 Penalties for Various Sins.

The LORD said to Moses, "Tell the Israelites: Anyone, whether an Israelite or an alien residing in Israel who gives any of his offspring to Molech shall be put to death. Let his fellow citizens stone him. I myself will turn against such a man and cut him off from the body of his people…

NAB MAT 5:29 Occasions of Impurity.

If your right eye is your trouble, gouge it out and throw it away! Better you lose part of your body than to have it all cast into Gehenna. Again if your right hand is your trouble, cut it off and throw it away! Better to lose part of your body than to have it all cast into Gehenna."
NAB NUM 15:30

"But anyone who sins defiantly, whether he be a native or and alien, insults the LORD, and shall be cut off from among his people. Since he has despised the word of the LORD and has broken his commandment, he must be cut off. He has only himself to blame." The Sabbath-breaker. While the Israelites were in the desert,** a man was discovered gathering wood on the sabbath day**…

…Then the LORD said to Moses, "This man shall be put to death; let the whole community stone him outside the camp." So the whole community led him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD had commanded Moses.

NAB MAT 18:5

"Whoever welcomes one such child for my sake welcomes me. On the other hand, it would be better for anyone who leads astray one of these little ones who believes in me, to be drown by a millstone around his neck, in the depths of the sea. What terrible things will come on the world through scandal! It is inevitable that scandal should occur. Nonetheless, woe to that man through whom scandal comes! If your hand or foot is your undoing, cut it off and throw it from you! Better to enter life maimed or crippled than be thrown with two hands or feet into endless fire. If your eye is your downfall, gouge it out and cast it from you! Better to enter life with one eye than be thrown with both into fiery Gehenna.
In biblical terms, to “Cut-off” a portion of the body of people means to put individuals to death.

GEN 9:11 GEN 17:14 EXO 4:25* EXO 12:15 EXO 12:19 EXO 30:33 EXO 30:38 EXO 31:14 LEV 7:20 LEV 7:21 LEV 7:25 LEV 7:27 LEV 17:4 LEV 17:9 LEV 17:10 LEV 18:29 LEV 19:8 LEV 20:5 LEV 20:6 LEV 20:17 LEV 20:18 LEV 22:3 LEV 23:29 NUM 4:18 NUM 9:13 NUM 15:30 NUM 15:31 NUM 19:13 NUM 19:20*

Please visit Throwing Stones

 

[pnewton]

Ray_Scheel:

The problem with that argument is that you’d be hard pressed to find many people actually working in the prison systems of the U.S. that would agree with JPII that those conditions do not exist here today, especially when considering certain freedoms that generate security risks …

Me! Me! I do not think they exist today. I have seen the changes over nineteen years in the field. The myth of the safe prison is garbage.

PS - The catchism does not mention the US specifically. This is an important distiction, as it allows for a faithful Catholic to consider if the conditions are met.

 

[donosti]

Never.No one has right over the life of sombody else.:nope: