Capitalism and Catholicism: Consistently Incompatible

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No explicit management of people will occur in such a state; the best way to describe such management would be “a series of social programs informed by a vague egalitarian spirit.”
But see, in order to have “social programs” there has to be coercion, doesn’t there? If not, you’re back to charity, which you distrust.

So, if the egalitarian spirit is vague, then one is compelled to think it’s not greatly focused, or it wouldn’t be vague. Sounds a whole lot like pretty nearly every U.S. administration that ever existed.

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I believe the Church is doing what it should in trying to change the bad in government, no matter what system, by changing the individual. Think about how much less “government” we would need if all people followed the teachings of Jesus.

😃
This is in essence the argument of Tolstoy and Ammon Hennacy. Hennacy was Catholic for a while but left the church.

I think a system/policies based on “vaguely focused egalitarian spirit” would be preferable to relying on charity in a world dominated by “free market thinkers” whose policies tend to ignore economic inequality.
 
This is in essence the argument of Tolstoy and Ammon Hennacy. Hennacy was Catholic for a while but left the church.

I think a system/policies based on “vaguely focused egalitarian spirit” would be preferable to relying on charity in a world dominated by “free market thinkers” whose policies tend to ignore economic inequality.
Really? What was the world dominated by in Jesus’ time? Are you saying that the Roman Empire is the model government? :rolleyes: 😛
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Peregrino:
Of course, people will start slinging around excuses concerning the problems of communist dictators, “Jesus didn’t mean governent”, etc. at this point, but they never seem to resolve or acknowledge the definitive “socialist” element in the new testament that calls for the individual to “deny himself and take up his cross” in order to follow Jesus.
Jesus’ teachings are not about government. It isn’t an “excuse” I’m “slinging around,” it is fact. There is no “socialist element” in Jesus’ teaching. Calling for the individual to “deny himself and take up his cross” is a valid call in any economic/political system. There is nothing “socialist” about it.
 
I assure you that this is a sensible and just position, Russia practiced collectivist economics and we all know where that led, before unionization and regulation Great Britain practiced what could be called abusive Capitalism; no or little regulation, the laborer merely a cog in the machinery of production. We had some of that kind of abuse here in the states circa 19th-early 20 th century.
Agreed. Some of the deadly consequences of Communism are ideological atheism, state-idolatry, and dictator-deification. Socialism is the greater threat, IMO.
 
Jesus’ teachings are not about government. It isn’t an “excuse” I’m “slinging around,” it is fact. There is no “socialist element” in Jesus’ teaching. Calling for the individual to “deny himself and take up his cross” is a valid call in any economic/political system. There is nothing “socialist” about it.
:rotfl:

Are you saying there is something “capitalist” about it? “Blessed are the entrepreneurs, for they shall monopolize the earth”…:rolleyes:
 
:rotfl:

Are you saying there is something “capitalist” about it? “Blessed are the entrepreneurs, for they shall monopolize the earth”…:rolleyes:
No.He is saying there is nothing Political or secular about it.
 
Are you saying there is something “capitalist” about it? “Blessed are the entrepreneurs, for they shall monopolize the earth”…:rolleyes:
No. I’m saying it is neutral. Jesus spoke to individuals and said to drop everything and follow him…sell all they had…etc. That can be done in a socialist system, communist system or capitalist system.

You have the full capability and freedom to sell everything, own nothing and live as Jesus said. When you have, you can come back to CAF and admonish us all.
 
There is no other country that can compare with our compassion for the poor and our quick movement from lower class to middle and perhaps upper class.
I hate to tell you this. But this is a myth. America is not as upwardly mobile as people would like to believe.
 
I hate to tell you this. But this is a myth. America is not as upwardly mobile as people would like to believe.
Well that proves it then! :rolleyes: 😛

Anyway, upward mobility has nothing to do with the compatibility of capitalism and Catholicism.
 
Well that proves it then! :rolleyes: 😛

Anyway, upward mobility has nothing to do with the compatibility of capitalism and Catholicism.
Well, we all know how to use google. Just put in "american dream, upward mobilty blah blah… I was lazy I admit.

But you are right. This is off topic.
 
I hate to tell you this. But this is a myth. America is not as upwardly mobile as people would like to believe.
I only believe it because I have seen it time and time again. Sometimes it is welfare and handouts that keep people down. Striving for something and working is good for us. Some independence and self relience are good for us. These are traits of a humane capitalist system not a socialist one.
 
Simply put Teddy Roosevelt capitalism is best. The sqare deal.
 
No.He is saying there is nothing Political or secular about it.
No politics, no secular world. So you obviously believe the NT to be an emasculated message that has no relevance for the real world of people. What a sad world view.

Jesus should have just delivered a “Sermon at the Mall” and been done with it…
 
No politics, no secular world. So you obviously believe the NT to be an emasculated message that has no relevance for the real world of people. What a sad world view.

Jesus should have just delivered a “Sermon at the Mall” and been done with it…
What in the world are you talking about? Of course, his message is relevant to the “real world of people.” Nobody has denied that.

We are in this world, but not of this world. (John 17:14-16) Jesus’ message is not political, because there is no political system which man can make that will even come close to heaven.

We are called to be like Jesus, correct? Did Jesus discuss politics at all? Nope. The closest he got was when someone asked if they should pay taxes. His response is more in-line with our position - not yours:
Matthew 22:
17 11 Tell us, then, what is your opinion: Is it lawful to pay the census tax to Caesar or not?" 18 Knowing their malice, Jesus said, “Why are you testing me, you hypocrites? 19 12 Show me the coin that pays the census tax.” Then they handed him the Roman coin. 20 He said to them, “Whose image is this and whose inscription?” 21 They replied, “Caesar’s.” 13 At that he said to them, “Then repay to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and to God what belongs to God.” 22 When they heard this they were amazed, and leaving him they went away.
Jesus avoids the political argument and elevates the discussion to the spiritual - “repay…to God what belongs to God.”

From what I can tell, Our Lord isn’t concerned in the least with the political/economic systems we use here on earth. He was telling us how we, as individuals and communities, should treat each other. We can treat each other charitably, as Christ taught, in a variety of political/economic systems. Capitalism and Socialism are more Christian only if Christians act like Christians within those systems.
 
No politics, no secular world. So you obviously believe the NT to be an emasculated message that has no relevance for the real world of people. What a sad world view.

Jesus should have just delivered a “Sermon at the Mall” and been done with it…
I guess it’s alot easier for you to makeup what the people supposedly said and knock it down than it is to actually address the issues presented.
 
Brothers and sisters, in response to the radically conservative sentiments which have hampered constructive Christian efforts in the worldwide Catholic Church, especially in the United States, I would like to address the incompatibility the capitalist system presents to our Catholic faith.

Although many professed Catholics are quick to reject socialism as a solution to the extreme inequity of the world, the same Catholics consistently fail to acknowledge just what an affront to Christianity global Capitalism poses. Let us earnestly compare the Capitalist tenant of “survival of the fittest”, with the Christian tenant of “love thy neighbor as yourself”, and it should become immediately apparent that one cannot support Capitalism and be a Christian in good standing. This is evident by observation of the cruel subjugation, exploitation, and de-facto played out by the mechanisms of Global Capitalism in the cases of numerous countries of South East Asia, Latin America, and indeed in the inner-cities of the United States as well as the Ghettos of Europe.

We are charged as Christians to build the Kingdom of Heaven. Perhaps the first step towards this goal should be tearing down the mechanism of Capitalism which have stratified our world among the rich and poor for much of human history. I pray you my brothers and sisters look earnestly upon my words and provide this thread with the incite of your own consciences.
Modern communism has only really been around for about a century, and the modern interpretation of capitalism a little longer. The practice of either ideology, in the way that they have been practiced in working country/state models is, in my opinion inhumane, either way, and neither group of practitioners seems willing to experiment with something close to a Christian model of economic reality, which you seem to be able to see the possibility of. It’s not all bad for the State to help folks out with a few things that they struggle badly with, so long as it is done for humane purposes, and not as an alternative sort of tyrany. Also, people should be able to derive a profit, and some reasonable satisfaction for excellence and achievement. But modern capitalism is so greedy. There just doesn’t seem to be a reasonable point of stability and satisfaction in capitalists. I don’t pretend to have an answer, but I’d venture to guess that there are economists out there who could divise a system where there is incentive for excellence in individuals. A moderate, but compelling profit availability, but also a cap, or maximum rate of profit, so that profiteering doesn’t become the sole incentive for enterprise, or even life itself, and to where it’s unattractive to actually hurt another person in the pursuit of one’s own self satisfaction. There must also be a way to inspire both private and State institutions to do MUCH more for the impoverished. We can’t allow a full bore welfare state, because the great paradox is that the poor need to exist in some form in order to allow the development of altruistic charity, but we are also supposed to detest this very fact, and do all we can for those who are impoverished. I’m still working out a lot of this stuff in my mind and heart. I’ve found that unchecked capitalism is destroying the USA. Unchecked Communism destroyed the Soviet Union and other communist states. There is a hybrid theory yet to be put into action anywhere that could be based on Christian ethics, but it can’t simply be called Christianity because State’s won’t have something that’s from “religion”. I suspect that some relatively free markets with protections against too much profit, and some reasonable state assisted programs for health, welfare, safety, education. Some “pink” socialism, with a bit more incentive for profit. CanAustralSwedeBritAmerianistic Sociocapitalism with full freedom of travel, religion, and property ownership, where those who go the extra mile, can enjoy a little better life while here on earth, and those who can’t seem to catch a break don’t starve. Where those who are on the cusp have incentive to try their best for a bigger taste of the good life, but if they fail, they can still have a basic and humane lfe, which is, while perhaps painful, since there are reasons for the crosses we bear, is not UNbearable. Where the people won’t feel like having an armed revolution and make things go radically one way or another. Not utopia. It’s impossible, and not correctly Christian either. Utopia light. A good State which protects it’s weakest links, and reasoably caps the uncaring ubercapitalist, so that they never forget from whence they came, and have a true understanding of the fine difference between the state available basic life, and the alternatively available moderately luxurious life. Where there are still poor to help for charities, but not a rediculously large underclass who are a paycheck or two away from starving.

I’m rambling and losing track. I know what I’m trying to say. And not it’s not just like this place or that place. It doesn’t exist right now, and as far as I know, never has. It’s not a perfect utopia, nor is it hell on earth. It’s eh…okay for most folks, and pretty darn sweet for the truly brilliant and industrious. It’s not hell for anybody.

Peace to all,

Steven
 
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