Capitalism vs. Socialism

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otjm said:
Economic pressure is not economic warfare.
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Economic pressure that is used to control, manipulate or discipline any economy or government is only one of the tools used in the theater of ECONOMIC WARFARE
 
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I am going to make this short, and I don’t intend to be rude, but you appear to not have the faintest idea what is going on between China and the rest of the world, and in particular, with the US. There is nothing the US has done that would even begin to compare with what the Chinese could very easily do.

The US has done nothing whatsoever to destroy any other economy. Nor has it positioned itself to do so.

Have a great day - this is now on ignore.
 
Yes very well put however this seems to indicate and depend on what you define as success. When we put the need for Capitalism at the center of our existence the outcome is only that we try harder because it might be rewarding. If we put living at the center of our existence the levels of success can be measured differently. Is this possible?
What i originally suggested was that all governments no matter of what persuasion or location in the world practice both Capitalism & Socialism and the only real indicator is which side they lean more towards.
 
otjm said:
I am going to make this short, and I don’t intend to be rude, but you appear to not have the faintest idea what is going on between China and the rest of the world, and in particular, with the US. There is nothing the US has done that would even begin to compare with what the Chinese could very easily do.

The US has done nothing whatsoever to destroy any other economy. Nor has it positioned itself to do so.
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We are all free to have an opinion but I don’t think we get far if we ignore the impact on others.
 
otjm said:
The US has done nothing whatsoever to destroy any other economy. Nor has it positioned itself to do so.
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In 2017, U.S. President Donald Trump enacted tight restrictions on Venezuela’s ability to access financial markets; two years later, the U.S. government blacklisted Venezuela’s Central Bank and put a general embargo against the Venezuelan state institutions. If any firm trades with Venezuela’s public sector, it could face secondary sanctions. The U.S. Congress passed the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA) in 2017, which tightened sanctions against Iran, Russia, and North Korea. The next year, Trump imposed a raft of new sanctions against Iran which suffocated Iran’s economy. Once more, access to the world banking system and threats to companies that traded with Iran made it almost impossible for Iran to do business with the world.
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thank you for making my point. Venezuela has been in absolute chaos since the takeover of the radical government and the nationalization of their oil companies. when people are on such extreme rations, because the government has bollixed the economy so profoundly, we are not in economic warfare to destroy their economy; we are trying to create enough pressure that the government, which will not accept the results of elections, steps down. You can bet your bottom dollar that if the government stepped down, we would be first in line to help them right their economy. It is in abject shambles currently.

As to Iran, the issue again is not destroying their economy; it is the proliferation of intra and inter continent missiles and their stated desire to create atomic weapons.

the point I was making about China is that china has been moving over the last 10 or more years to lock up mineral rights throughout both South America and Africa; additionally in a very minor area - health care - they have been manufacturing drugs at rates cheaper than we can manufacture, and are also the source of raw materrials for drug manufacturing.

according to one report, about 35,000 american citizens received medicine for high blood pressure, which was contaminated with a cancer causing substance. The FDA has said that because of the volume of the drugs we are purchasing, it is basically impossible to test all for strength and purity.

Those are two simple issues of many in which we have been lulled into thinking that we are advantaged by relying on China. The argument over 5G and any potential back door ability of China to monitor has been well in the news, and the US is not alone inseeking other alternatives to building a network.

China is not out to make a regime change - although they likely might agree with Bernie Bros as to massive governmental changes they propose. all China has to do is obatin control of critical supply chains, and lull us into furhter reliance on them for goods and supplies, before we one day wake up on the wrong end of the stick. As I noted, Hin plays a long game. Altogether too much in the US looks no further than the next earnings announcement.
 
otjm said:
thank you for making my point. Venezuela has been in absolute chaos since the takeover of the radical government and the nationalization of their oil companies. when people are on such extreme rations, because the government has bollixed the economy so profoundly, we are not in economic warfare to destroy their economy; we are trying to create enough pressure that the government, which will not accept the results of elections, steps down. You can bet your bottom dollar that if the government stepped down, we would be first in line to help them right their economy. It is in abject shambles currently.

As to Iran, the issue again is not destroying their economy; it is the proliferation of intra and inter continent missiles and their stated desire to create atomic weapons.
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We disagree. The bolded part is economic warfare. As for Iran it goes back to Mosaddegh and the long, violent memory of the United States. We are not the world’s policeman and should stop trying to be. Our government doesn’t care about the Venezuelan people and doesn’t care about free elections when we support dictatorships and have overthrown democratically elected governments the world over.

As for China, I agree entirely.
 
You make some very good points here however it seems that the Venezuela Issue (one of many) pointed towards the belief that
otjm said:
The US has done nothing whatsoever to destroy any other economy. Nor has it positioned itself to do so.
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I still maintain that it would be very hard for anyone to suggest that America is completely innocent in all of this.
 
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StudentMI said:
Our government doesn’t care about the Venezuelan people and doesn’t care about free elections when we support dictatorships and have overthrown democratically elected governments the world over.
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Well said…we only need to recognize that our view is not the only view.
 
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I just want to say that despite our disagreements, I think we would all agree on more fundamental issues.
 
YES a very important point. The main reason i started this thread was to try and better understand peoples opinion of Capitalism vs Socialism & what I am finding is the ever tightening view of who done and who didn’t do (questionable fundamentals) even though we all have something to learn from cause and effect it is not the only tool in the toolbox.
 
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The U.S. employed military intervention for more than a century, and covert destabilization and structural adjustment programs for decades, to control weaker countries for various reasons. Books like Chalmers Johnson’s Blowback and others provide details.
 
Firstly i want to thank you for your diligence and providing a link to this article. It is a wonderful insight and has many startling facts. I need time to digest these insights and can say that they remain true to the topic here on this thread.

Robert Higgs and the Independent Institute provide terrific knowledge and wisdom (1996) on the role of government and its interaction with capitalism and socialism through-out recent history. It leaves me wanting to know more about the balancing of the two.

As socialism is largely considered a by product of capitalism and the argument for this is that both ideologies never existed before the French and American revolution that is responsible for the re-structuring of feudalism by ushering capitalism to mainstream. (In accordance with Richard Wolff)

I cant help but think that this article is correct if you believe or have some faith in the power of capitalism to distribute wealth more evenly across all classes. Extremely problematic proposal as fair distribution is only a matter of perspective (where you stand as an an individual) therefor enhancing potential for greater division of the classes.

Plenty of time is given to the negative side of socialism but doesn’t seem to spend enough time analyzing the negative side of capitalism. I find it may be slightly imbalanced but none the less a wonderful insight.

I will comment further on some of the specifics of the Robert Higgs article in days to come and in the mean time here is another link to ponder these ideologies.

Soho Forum - Capitalism vs Socialism
 
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