Capuchin Franciscan Friars in Denver

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Hello ATeutonicKnight, I am a taxicab driver in Denver and out of curiosity I drove over to this Capuchin Franciscan place to check it out. In fact I’m parked in front of the place right now as I am making this posting! They definitely appear legitimate to me; but if you like I would be glad to knock on their door for you and say that ‘there is a man named “ATeutonicKnight” who would very much like to know if you are crazy or not’, and then I could report back to you. Would that be of any help? :cool:
Ha! I would pay you to videotape that. 😛
 
Hello ATeutonicKnight, I am a taxicab driver in Denver and out of curiosity I drove over to this Capuchin Franciscan place to check it out. In fact I’m parked in front of the place right now as I am making this posting! They definitely appear legitimate to me; but if you like I would be glad to knock on their door for you and say that ‘there is a man named “ATeutonicKnight” who would very much like to know if you are crazy or not’, and then I could report back to you. Would that be of any help? :cool:
Out of curiosity, what’s it look like? Is it what you would think a Friary would look like? Or is it more modern-building looking?
 
I’m in Denver and my priest is, I believe, a Capuchin Monk (he is certainly Franciscan, and I’m confident that he is also a Capuchin, though I’m not 100% sure). Keep in mind that Archbishop Chaput is also a Capuchin, and his orthodoxy is well-known.

As far as the whole Mexican youth concern, remember that the Catholic Church, especially in Denver under Archbishop Chaput’s leadership, has been passionately committed to aiding the migrant regardless of their legal status. You can argue the politics of it, but the Church chooses to bypass the politics and focus on charity towards the migrant. I find that approach hard to argue with.
That’s very cool. I actually didn’t know that Capuchins would be bishops, let alone archbishops. Saint Francis really didn’t want that to happen, because the bishops at his time were very much like the Priests of his time, but over the course of centuries the Priests have been more orthodox I suppose.

I have no problem with helping the immigrants. I’m just worried that they treat them like they do here, where’s it’s all about them and the white population might as well not exist. I have no problem aiding them, I just have a problem with adoring them above all others. They’re no different than whites, and it’s a shame that they’re treated like they’re Cardinals and we’re treated like Wiccans over here.
 
Out of curiosity, what’s it look like? Is it what you would think a Friary would look like? Or is it more modern-building looking?
I would say more the modern-building look.

btw, I don’t have a way to make a video. If only we could enlist the help of Geraldo Rivera!
 
I would say more the modern-building look.

btw, I don’t have a way to make a video. If only we could enlist the help of Geraldo Rivera!
I see. That’s to be expected. Most Friaries in the U.S. look like that.

I was merely joking on that part, but seriously, if you asked them if they were crazy and videotaped you doing it, I would pay for that video. 😛
 
I think the Franciscans are more focused on them because right now they are the least of Christ’s brethren: no home, no security, no stable source of income. It also reminds me of this…

Matthew 15 said:
[21]
And Jesus went from thence, and retired into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon. [22] And behold a woman of Canaan who came out of those coasts, crying out, said to him: Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David: my daughter is grieviously troubled by the devil. [23] Who answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying: Send her away, for she crieth after us: [24] And he answering, said: I was not sent but to the sheep that are lost of the house of Israel. [25] But she came and adored him, saying: Lord, help me.

[26] Who answering, said: It is not good to take the bread of the children, and to cast it to the dogs. [27] But she said: Yea, Lord; for the whelps also eat of the crumbs that fall from the table of their masters. [28] Then Jesus answering, said to her: O woman, great is thy faith: be it done to thee as thou wilt: and her daughter was cured from that hour.

No matter our skin color, race, or nationality… we belong to Christ. 🙂
 
I think the Franciscans are more focused on them because right now they are the least of Christ’s brethren: no home, no security, no stable source of income. It also reminds me of this…

No matter our skin color, race, or nationality… we belong to Christ. 🙂
I understand where you’re coming from, but if you knew just how bad our last Bishop was… He literally walked right past a white person that wanted to shake his hand to get to a Mexican. Those occurrences weren’t rare, either. It was just sad how horrible it was.

I have no problem helping those in need. If the people in need happen to be the Mexican population, so be it. But social favorism is hurtful, and it shouldn’t happen.
 
I understand where you’re coming from, but if you knew just how bad our last Bishop was… He literally walked right past a white person that wanted to shake his hand to get to a Mexican. Those occurrences weren’t rare, either. It was just sad how horrible it was.

I have no problem helping those in need. If the people in need happen to be the Mexican population, so be it. But social favorism is hurtful, and it shouldn’t happen.
  • Did he know the Mexican personally?
  • Did he counsel the Mexican at some point in a crisis situation?
  • Did someone ask him “hey, this fellow needs help of some kind?”
  • Is the Mexican a part of the parish, and maybe they needed to talk about something?
And how many times did he bypass Mexicans to talk to a white person? You don’t know, most likely. Or maybe that isn’t on some people’s radar.
 
  • Did he know the Mexican personally?
  • Did he counsel the Mexican at some point in a crisis situation?
  • Did someone ask him “hey, this fellow needs help of some kind?”
  • Is the Mexican a part of the parish, and maybe they needed to talk about something?
And how many times did he bypass Mexicans to talk to a white person? You don’t know, most likely. Or maybe that isn’t on some people’s radar.
I don’t know. He would just bypass white people to get to Mexicans because he felt they were far more important. He felt that we as white people “owed them”. Why? Are their feelings hurt that we almost beat four thousand Mexicans with four hundred guys at the Alamo or something? What have we ever done to them?

To explain the situation better, the person literally walked up to him to shake his hand and he walked passed him to get to a Mexican. If he knew him or not doesn’t matter. It is wrong to do that.
 
I think this post by the moderators in the Vocations forum is relevant.

Orthodox Orders REMINDER
Ha. I must have missed that one. 😃

I do realize they are orthodox. In fact, I’m almost dead-set on joining them. I was just a bit skeptical about them at first because of my diocese’… interesting opinions.
 
Does anyone know if they are orthodox? I’ve looked at their website, and I am unsure if they are. They are heavily involved with the Mexican youth, which is fine, but I have a problem with people that act like they are the only ones on planet earth who matter and that we should give our full focus on them. Because of this I am unsure of their orthodoxy. Has anyone here met them in person? Or better yet, visited their Friary?
The Capuchin Franciscans at that house are very orthodox and very Franciscan. In fact, that’s Archbishop Chaput’s community you’re talking about.

The reason that you may notice they are very involved with a specific group is because of the command from the Church that Franciscans return to our roots. This implied several major changes. To understand them, the laity has to understand what happened between Vatican I and Vatican II.

In short, the world had expanded with missions in the Americas, Africa and Asia. The bishops wanted priests. The friars (not just Franciscans) tried to help by ordaining more and more men. This was not the mind of St. Francis, but no one thought that it would last a long time. Gradually, the Franciscans (all of the branches) became very priestly or clerical. The priests took over and the non-clerical friars were assigned tasks as houseboys. They were not allowed to speak to their brothers who were ordained, eat at the same table, pray in the same chapel, go to school, participate in the government of the order. In short, if Francis had come back, he would have been a porter, not the Superior General.

In this country, the friars started in poor parishes with immigrants. Those parishes became middle class and the friars stayed. Those friars who were priests gradually began to live more like diocesan priests. The parish became the most important part of their lives. Prayer and community were second. Everything had to be scheduled around the demands of the parish. This was what Salesians, Vincentians, Redemptorists and other congregations were founded for, not Franciscans.

In the 1950s, the friars realized that they were very far from St. Francis. They asked Pope Pius XII for help. He told them to wait. I guess the Holy Spirit knew that the good pope would not last much longer. When Vatican II came around, without anyone asking, Perfectae Caritatis was decreed. It was the very thing that the friars had asked Pope Pius XII to grant them, permission to go back to the 13th century and become a brotherhood of equals, with a focus on life among the poor.

This is how you get this situation. Unlike Vincentians who were founded to serve the poor, Francis did not found his order to serve the poor. He founded his order to live and work among the poor just like the common man. Friars do not go in and then go back to the middle class house in the evening. They remain with the poor.

This explains why a typical friary can be a very old churchy looking building or a very modern cement block. It does not matter to a Franciscan. The idea is to live where the poor live. The goal is to move away from serving the middle class and higher and toward the poor.

The Franciscans have always led the way in the observance of poverty. You will find them among the Mexican Americans in Denver, the Haitians in Miami, the Hispanics and blacks in NY, etc. These are their people. These are the people whom Francis wanted his sons and daughters to live with, work with and serve. We were to imitate them. Many of their customs have become part of our way of life, even the way that we pray is influenced by the people we serve. This was very much part of Francis’ way. That explains why we’re NOT MONASTIC.

Francis avoided everything that was monastic, because it was not the way of the poor. The monks had a very special place in the Church and their customs were part of their way of life. Dominicans kept the customs of the monks, but lived among the people. Francis did not keep the customs of the monks. He prayed like the people, dressed like them, did the same kind of work as they did.

To answer the other question, contrary to what was said here, there is no regulation against a Franciscan being a priest, bishop or pope. The only regulation is that every Franciscan is a brother, whether he is ordained or not. Archbishop Chaput, Archbishop Fernandez and Cardinal O’Malley continue to be friars (fratres). They are bound to obey the rule of St Francis. When they retire, they are to return to the community and continue as if nothing had ever happened. They will be given an assignment like any other friar. One such example was Bonaventure. He was a cardinal. The order recalled him because the friars wanted him to do two things: a) be the General Minister and b) write the definitie biography of St. Francis. Bonaventure returned and became Brother Bonaventure again. That’s the way that Franciscan life goes.

The Franciscans of the Renewal also came out of the Capuchin Franciscans. They had to be carved out, because they were among middle class Catholics. They are now in the slums of several major cities. They may not stay there when the economy improves, nor may they work in parishes. It’s all part of going back to Franciscan life before Vatican I.

Many people are angry at the Franciscan family. They don’t understand the harm that was done to the order between the two councils. The order was transformed into something that Francis never had in mind. It’s going to take time to get back to the roots. There is still resistance, especially among the laity. The greatest resistance is to the non-ordained brothers taking on pastoral duties. I have never understood this. They are very good theologians, spritual directors, retreat masters, parish administrator, etc. You will see most of us among the poor as Christ did.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
The Capuchin Franciscans at that house are very orthodox and very Franciscan. In fact, that’s Archbishop Chaput’s community you’re talking about.

The reason that you may notice they are very involved with a specific group is because of the command from the Church that Franciscans return to our roots. This implied several major changes. To understand them, the laity has to understand what happened between Vatican I and Vatican II.

In short, the world had expanded with missions in the Americas, Africa and Asia. The bishops wanted priests. The friars (not just Franciscans) tried to help by ordaining more and more men. This was not the mind of St. Francis, but no one thought that it would last a long time. Gradually, the Franciscans (all of the branches) became very priestly or clerical. The priests took over and the non-clerical friars were assigned tasks as houseboys. They were not allowed to speak to their brothers who were ordained, eat at the same table, pray in the same chapel, go to school, participate in the government of the order. In short, if Francis had come back, he would have been a porter, not the Superior General.

In the 1950s, the friars realized that they were very far from St. Francis. They asked Pope Pius XII for help. He told them to wait. I guess the Holy Spirit knew that the good pope would not last much longer. When Vatican II came around, without anyone asking, Perfectae Caritatis was decreed. It was the very thing that the friars had asked Pope Pius XII to grant them, permission to go back to the 13th century and become a brotherhood of equals, with a focus on life among the poor.

This is how you get this situation. Unlike Vincentians who were founded to serve the poor, Francis did not found his order to serve the poor. He founded his order to live and work among the poor just like the common man. Friars do not go in and then go back to the middle class house in the evening. They remain with the poor.

This explains why a typical friary can be a very old churchy looking building or a very modern cement block. It does not matter to a Franciscan. The idea is to live where the poor live. The goal is to move away from serving the middle class and higher and toward the poor.

The Franciscans have always led the way in the observance of poverty. You will find them among the Mexican Americans in Denver, the Haitians in Miami, the Hispanics and blacks in NY, etc. These are their people. These are the people whom Francis wanted his sons and daughters to live with, work with and serve. We were to imitate them. Many of their customs have become part of our way of life, even the way that we pray is influenced by the people we serve. This was very much part of Francis’ way. That explains why we’re NOT MONASTIC.

Francis avoided everything that was monastic, because it was not the way of the poor. The monks had a very special place in the Church and their customs were part of their way of life. Dominicans kept the customs of the monks, but lived among the people. Francis did not keep the customs of the monks. He prayed like the people, dressed like them, did the same kind of work as they did.

To answer the other question, contrary to what was said here, there is no regulation against a Franciscan being a priest, bishop or pope. The only regulation is that every Franciscan is a brother, whether he is ordained or not. Archbishop Chaput, Archbishop Fernandez and Cardinal O’Malley continue to be friars (fratres). They are bound to obey the rule of St Francis. When they retire, they are to return to the community and continue as if nothing had ever happened. They will be given an assignment like any other friar. One such example was Bonaventure. He was a cardinal. The order recalled him because the friars wanted him to do two things: a) be the General Minister and b) write the definitie biography of St. Francis. Bonaventure returned and became Brother Bonaventure again. That’s the way that Franciscan life goes.

The Franciscans of the Renewal also came out of the Capuchin Franciscans. They had to be carved out, because they were among middle class Catholics. They are now in the slums of several major cities. They may not stay there when the economy improves, nor may they work in parishes. It’s all part of going back to Franciscan life before Vatican I.

Many people are angry at the Franciscan family. They don’t understand the harm that was done to the order between the two councils. The order was transformed into something that Francis never had in mind. It’s going to take time to get back to the roots. There is still resistance, especially among the laity. The greatest resistance is to the non-ordained brothers taking on pastoral duties. I have never understood this. They are very good theologians, spritual directors, retreat masters, parish administrator, etc. You will see most of us among the poor as Christ did.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Thank you for your great and lengthy answer, Brother. You have explained everything very well. I now realize why they are with the Mexican youth so much. I apologize for being so daft before.

It was very sad to read what happened to the regular Brothers. Did the Priests not realize that Saint Francis himself was not a Priest? The sad thing about this is most people today don’t realize he wasn’t a Priest. They assume just because he founded the order he was a Priest, like the other common orders (Dominicans, Jesuits, Benedictines, etc). It’s truly sad how uneducated people are theologically and historically.

By the way, Brother, when you said that Franciscans were not Monastic in all capitals, I just about stood up and cheered. Thank you for making my day. 😛

In Christ,

Miles (Hopefully a “Brother” will be in front of that soon).
 
Thank you for your great and lengthy answer, Brother. You have explained everything very well. I now realize why they are with the Mexican youth so much. I apologize for being so daft before.

It was very sad to read what happened to the regular Brothers. Did the Priests not realize that Saint Francis himself was not a Priest? The sad thing about this is most people today don’t realize he wasn’t a Priest. They assume just because he founded the order he was a Priest, like the other common orders (Dominicans, Jesuits, Benedictines, etc). It’s truly sad how uneducated people are theologically and historically.

By the way, Brother, when you said that Franciscans were not Monastic in all capitals, I just about stood up and cheered. Thank you for making my day. 😛

In Christ,

Miles (Hopefully a “Brother” will be in front of that soon).
The Benedictines and Franciscans, this includes their different branches, were founded as brotherhoods. They were communities of religious brothers.

Let’s look at the Benedictine family for a moment. Benedict ran across groups of monks that were led by an Abba. These Abbots were not always priests. They were the spiritual fathers of these brotherhoods. To this day, they are Christ among their brothers. All earthly and spiritual power is handed over to them. This has not changed in 1500 years. The abbot can delegate or not, as he chooses. The structure was one of family or brotherhood, under a father who speaks for Christ and how is obeyed as one obeys Christ. The monastery is not built around the priesthood, but around obedience to the Abba. They obeyed their abbas, because in doing so, they deposited all of the temporal and spiritual concerns of the brotherhood on one person, freeing themselves to pray, work and rest. Being an abbot is not a joyride. It’s a huge responsibility. These lives and souls are your responsibility. No one wants this responsibility. This is very typical of monasticism.

When religious say “monastic” it does not mean the same to us as it means to Webster or to the layman. To us, monastic means a brotherhood built around a specific house, headed by an Abba. Friars don’t have this arrangement. We don’t have fathers. The head of a house is the Guardian. His job is to look after the welfare of his brothers. However, he is not the voice of Christ. Francis is the voice of Christ. Francis is the only Father.

The second difference has to do with the house. We’re not attached to any house. We live in a house and we move out. Usually, we don’t own the houses in which we live. They are provided for us and the owner can claim them at any time. The few that we own, is with permission of the Church. However, the Church has the right to take them away and give them to whomever the Vatican chooses to do so. This is not the case with monks. They own their monasteries. No one can take them away, not even the pope. Legally, these are their lands and buildings. The pope can suppress them. In other words, he can order them to close up the house. The assets are distributed according to the Rule of St. Benedict. Friars do not have this setup.

The third difference is the liturgy. Here the friars are going to vary. Dominicans and Carmelites kept the liturgical structure of the Benedictines. They chanted the office and celebrated a very elaborate liturgy, which eventually evolved into what we call the Dominican Rite and the Carmelite Rite.

The Franciscans did not keep this liturgical tradition. Francis gave the friars, nuns and secular Franciscans, a breviary, but commanded that it never be chanted. It had to be recited. That’s still in the rule to this day. When you want to chant, you have to get special permission. He also received a very simple missal from Pope Innocent III. Pope Pius V would later tweak this mass and it became known as the Tridentine mass. Pope Pius added more pomp and more chant. However, the Franciscans were never bound to do that. Most Franciscans did not. They used music that was easy for the friars and the faithful and they never adopted the Church’s calendar. In this way, we’re not monastic either. We don’t have this formal liturgical tradition. Our liturgical tradition is very beautiful, but very simple. Among monks, the abbot puts together the breviary and the missal. It’s not the Church. He then submits his changes to the Holy See for approval. Every monastery has a different breviary and a different form of the mass, not so among Franciscans. We don’t have that kind of autonomy. We have a common missal and breviary. We have a common calendar and common rubrics. When it comes to liturgy, we’re not monastic either.

The Conventual Franciscans and the Third Order Regular Franciscans did adopt the monastic habit. That’s why they wear black. Everyone else wears brown, grey, blue, white, or tan. They were able to adopt a monastic habit, precisely because Franciscans are not monastic. In the monastic tradition, the habit is static. Every Trappist house wears the same white tunic and black scapular. Every Benedictine house wears a black tunic and black scapular and so forth. Since Franciscans are not monastic, we never had a habit. Francis didn’t give us a habit. He simple said “a tunic, with a cowl and a cord.” That’s not very specific. You have all kinds of habits, colors, and even lengths. Were we monastic, we would have a static habit. The brown habit became popular because brown wool was cheap.
 
We never had “lay brothers” as did the monks. There were monks who were choir brothers and others who were lay brothers. The choir monks could be priests or brothers, but their life was spent praying the office. The lay brothers prayed less hours and took care of the material needs of the house to liberate the choir monks to pray. We had friars who were clerics and friars who were lay, big difference. The friars who were lay wrote books, preached, taught, went on missions, took care of things around the house, were spiritual guides for the faithful. In other words, there was no difference between the cleric and the lay until it was time for mass. Even then, not every cleric could celebrate mass, only the one who had permission from the superior.

The friar-priests of the 19th and 20th century adopted this model. They excluded from ministry and government any friar who was not a priest. It was not even a good copy of the Benedictine model. It was goofy. When a talented and intelligent man came, they would push him to be a priest. If he were a little dull, they would put him to do household chores. Gradually, the laity erroneously picked up that a non-ordained Franciscan was less intelligent. When many non-ordained friars went on to become theologians, scholars, scientists, etc, the laity was blown away. Their reaction is usually to ask, “Why aren’t you a priest?” Of course the answer is simple, “I entered to be another Francis.”

Those differences make it very clear that Franciscans are neither monks nor monastic. We don’t have the right elements for monastic life. Monastic has a very specific meaning about a way of life, method of prayer and system of government that we don’t have. We take our lessons from the culture and adopt it to fit into the rule.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
We never had “lay brothers” as did the monks. There were monks who were choir brothers and others who were lay brothers. The choir monks could be priests or brothers, but their life was spent praying the office. The lay brothers prayed less hours and took care of the material needs of the house to liberate the choir monks to pray. We had friars who were clerics and friars who were lay, big difference. The friars who were lay wrote books, preached, taught, went on missions, took care of things around the house, were spiritual guides for the faithful. In other words, there was no difference between the cleric and the lay until it was time for mass. Even then, not every cleric could celebrate mass, only the one who had permission from the superior.

The friar-priests of the 19th and 20th century adopted this model. They excluded from ministry and government any friar who was not a priest. It was not even a good copy of the Benedictine model. It was goofy. When a talented and intelligent man came, they would push him to be a priest. If he were a little dull, they would put him to do household chores. Gradually, the laity erroneously picked up that a non-ordained Franciscan was less intelligent. When many non-ordained friars went on to become theologians, scholars, scientists, etc, the laity was blown away. Their reaction is usually to ask, “Why aren’t you a priest?” Of course the answer is simple, “I entered to be another Francis.”

Those differences make it very clear that Franciscans are neither monks nor monastic. We don’t have the right elements for monastic life. Monastic has a very specific meaning about a way of life, method of prayer and system of government that we don’t have. We take our lessons from the culture and adopt it to fit into the rule.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Once again, you have blown me away with knowledge. Now, if anyone says Friars are monastic in front of me, I will be able to smack them with the approval of the entire Franciscan family. 😛
 
Once again, you have blown me away with knowledge. Now, if anyone says Friars are monastic in front of me,** I will be able to smack them with the approval of the entire Franciscan family**. 😛
:rotfl: A slap on the wrist will do.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Alright. But if they are resistant, I won’t hesitate to smack sense into their brain next. 😛

In Christ,

Miles.

Dominus Vobiscum.
It sounds like you have a vocation to the Benedictines. 😃

St. Benedict wrote in his rule that the monks were to beat their students and the abbots were to beat the monks. I heard some Benedictine monks say that this is still in their rule, because the Rule of St. Benedict, like the Rule of St. Francis are etched in stone. These rules cannot be changed.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
It sounds like you have a vocation to the Benedictines. 😃

St. Benedict wrote in his rule that the monks were to beat their students and the abbots were to beat the monks. I heard some Benedictine monks say that this is still in their rule, because the Rule of St. Benedict, like the Rule of St. Francis are etched in stone. These rules cannot be changed.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Ha! I don’t think I would like being a Benedictine. It’s fun to be the one smacking people around, not the one being smacked around. Maybe if I bribed the Abbot into giving me his position… 😃

But honestly, I think it’s because my Confirmation Saint is Saint Padre Pio (Who ironically is a Capuchin). He had no problem whatsoever smacking people around if needed. You should watch the movie. He’s smacking people left and right in it. 😃

But that is interesting information. Maybe if I get called a Franciscan slob by one I’ll call him a no-good doormat Benedictine. 😃
 
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