Cardinal Burke and Bishop Schneider ask for prayer and fasting

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I’m not worried about the Amazonian synod. It’s a legitimate synod under the primacy of the Pope. I trust that the Holy Spirit won’t allow it to steer the universal church too off the rails.

…the German synod? The Pope told them it was an invalid proposal. +Marx gave Rome the finger… and they’ve made it clear that they will be implementing whatever the results are in Germany with or without approval from Rome. This is literally the biggest Catholic news story in years that doesn’t involve sex abuse… but everyone is focussed on the Amazonian draft text. The German synod is a waaaaay bigger deal.
 
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It sounds like a schism is underway in Germany, to me. 🤷‍♀️ What would be the remedy? Bishop removal? In any case, both synods are problematic. I’m still aware of how much damage synods can do to faith, going by what happened 4 years ago.
 
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There’s nothing strange or uncatholic about the truth that God is not limited to the activity of the church. Whatever grace flows to anyone, anywhere, ever, comes from Christ’s paschal mystery, even if the person doesn’t receive it from a sacrament; as happens, for example, with those who are martyred before they can be baptized.
 
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Celibacy was an idea that came about as a Charism of the Holy Spirit. Your question doctrinally is one for the Holy Spirit?
OTHERWIZE Church fathers like Clement of Alexandria considered it unnatural
 
I think the issue is two fold.
The basis. And the discipline
The basis for priests to be celibate is scriptural.
Saint Paul talks about it. Paul assigns its value, status, and basis. He says it is not for everyone. It is a Charism of the Holy Spirit.
Then there is the Church discipline. This can and has changed.
 
It is should.
Consider this. A Charism is a gift of the Holy Spirit. The gift makes recipients celibate without the biological and mental make up of a family man. That Paul also speaks of and approves.
So here is the non sequitur.
Whe would you need a discipline if you receive celibacy as a gift of the Holy Spirit
 
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A priest also has to desire to be a father, that’s what will enable him to act as a Spiritual Father to lay persons.
 
If you Google Charism Catholic and celibacy, pages of cites.
It originates with Paul
 
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Maximus1 said:
If you Google Charism Catholic and celibacy, pages of cites.
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That means nothing to me. There are also “pages of cites” of reasons why St. Peter wasn’t Pope. Anyone can write anything about anything on the internet. I want an authoritative source.
Maximus1 said:
It originates with Paul
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From 1 Corinthians:
“12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but the same God, who worketh all in all.
12:7 And the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man unto profit.
12:8 To one indeed, by the Spirit, is given the word of wisdom: and to another, the word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit:
12:9 To another, faith in the same spirit: to another, the grace of healing in one Spirit:
12:10 To another the working of miracles: to another, prophecy: to another, the discerning of spirits: to another, diverse kinds of tongues: to another, interpretation of speeches.
12:11 But all these things, one and the same Spirit worketh, dividing to every one according as he will.”
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What verse from St. Paul are you referring to? Because these are all charisms, and celibacy is not on the list.

EDIT: From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03588e.htm
“Lastly, in its narrowest sense, charisma is the theological term for denoting extraordinary graces given to individual Christiansfor the good of others. These, or most of these, are enumerated by St. Paul (1 Corinthians 12:4, 9, 28, 30, 31), and form the subject-matter of the present article. They are: “The word of wisdom, the word of knowledge, faith, the grace of healing, the working of miracles, prophecy, the discerning of spirits, diverse kinds of tongues, interpretation of speeches” (1 Corinthians 12:8-10). To these are added the charismata of apostles, prophets, doctors, helps, governments (ibid., 28).”
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Fauken said:
Again, the issue isn’t can , but should .
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Exactly… that is why it is being discussed by the competent authority to determine if it should … happy to see your agreement.

I’m surprised and a bit disturbed that some prelates are arguing that it shouldn’t be discussed. Why so much fear about talking about it?
 
godisgood77 said:
Exactly… that is why it is being discussed by the competent authority to determine if it should … happy to see your agreement.
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My agreement on what is being discussed, not with allowing married priests, yes.
godisgood77 said:
I’m surprised and a bit disturbed that some prelates are arguing that it shouldn’t be discussed. Why so much fear about talking about it?
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Because people are suggesting getting rid of a cherished good that has benefited priests for a thousand years for the wrong reasons. The German synod, however, is concerning because the German bishops have called it a “binding” one, and are going to hold it and treat it as “binding” anyway even after Pope Francis told them not to.
 
Fauken said:
Because people are suggesting getting rid of a cherished good that has benefited priests for a thousand years for the wrong reasons.
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And what are those wrong reasons?

Seems to me they are planning to talk about allowing married priests in an area where there isn a severe shortage of priests … this is something that has been done before in the Catholic Church and is in fact allowed today in many rites…

And to stick to the facts… no one is talking about getting rid of celibate the priesthood

Seems like your argument hinges on it being an old practice… something you railed against earlier?

What are the wrong reasons you mention?
 
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Fauken said:
Because people are suggesting getting rid of a cherished good that has benefited priests for a thousand years
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Celibacy needs to be put in the context of history. It really is worth remembering that the “discipline” of celibacy gave Martin Luther endless ammunition for the reformation…a great human tragedy.

I believe Martin Luther should have stayed Catholic and done his best to push for changes and reform from within the church. However, it is worth thinking about how history would have unfolded if Martin Luther didn’t have the “discipline” of celibacy to give his cause ammunition.
 
1 Corinthians 7.
At (7:1-2) Paul describes married and those without the Charism not attempt more than they are able. He is describing celibacy as a form of ascetic practices he was dissuading.
(7:7) directly describes his own celibate practices. He then describes gifts( charisms) and he orders them within 1 Corinthians 7 beginning at 7:2.
Read the USCCB version of 1 Corinthians 7. They have footnotes of the Bishops to describe the gifts.
 
But where do they call celibacy a charism? I’ve read a great deal of Catholic mystical theology on charisms and have never seen celibacy there. Celibacy is something required of anyone who is not married for whatever reason: singleness, holy orders, widowhood. So I don’t see how it could possibly be considered charismatic. In addition, St. Paul never implied it was impossible, just difficult. After all, we are not animals. We do have self-control, even if it’s not always pleasant to have to tame our passions. I honestly highly doubt that what you’re implying/saying (about celibacy being a special charism that only some are capable of) is proper Catholic teaching. Everyone can become celibate at anytime and everyone is fully capable of it unless they are suffering from some form of illness. It would be a bit like calling fasting a charism, IMHO.
 
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