Cardinal Burke for Pope!

[JReducation]

If Cardinal Raymond Burke were to become Pope, you would expect the modernist crowd to start packing immediately. Ah, the taste of victory would be so sweet!

What a horrible and very unfranciscan thought. The election of a pontiff is not about victory. This is not a political game, nor a competition between factions: traditionalist vs mainstream Catholics.

It’s this kind of comment that gives traditionalism a black eye. Non traditionalists start to think that traditionalism is about triumph rather than faith. Nothing can be further from the truth.

It is also a statement that makes another statement, “We’re right and you’re wrong. We’re out to conquer and dominate the rest of you lower level Catholics who don’t see it our way.” That’s truly not what this is about.

Pope Benedict was working on correcting the mistakes that people made in the Ordinary Form. The so called liturgical reform was not a movement to restore the Tridentine Form to the Ordinary Form. He said many times that the Mass promulgated by Pope Paul VI remains the norm for the Latin Catholic Church. There was no intent to rescind this. The intent was to correct the nonsense that people added on their own.

I personally think that the actions of a high church official; e.g., the Pope, would have little effect on recalcitrant Catholics in high political positions. Rep. Pelosi and others like her do not recognize the authority of the clergy, including the Pope, and would not submit to that authority.

I think what would be most effective in bringing about change in Rep. Pelosi and others like her is an outcry from all the Catholics in the pews in the U.S. After all, politicians thrive only when they receive adulation and votes.

But for some reason, probably because rank-and-file Catholics in the U.S. think that they don’t have to submit to the authority of the Church and the bishops, and think they can undermine the authority of these men by constantly criticizing their actions, around 50% or more of Catholics continue to vote for Rep. Pelosi and others just like her.

I heard on The Chris Matthews Show yesterday that the only people in the U.S. who are still holding out against gay marriage are the Evangelical Protestants. The various guests on the show smugly insisted that even though they were Catholic, they believed in gay marriage. They cited stats that demonstrate that the majority of Roman Catholics in the U.S. are in favor of gay marriage!

So perhaps it’s the rank-and-file Catholics in the U.S. (people like you and me), rather than our political leaders, who need a really good slapping by the Holy Father.

Just remember that God is still on the throne, and those who oppose Him and disobey His commands will one day face Him in judgement and be required to give an account for their actions and choices. Read the Psalms and be comforted.

I would like to add to what you’re saying that the attitude expressed by many Catholics on the other side of the aisle, opposite the pro-choice and other Catholics is equally unfortunate. When this group gets up on the Internet, magazines, blogs and every other public form of the media and badmouths the hierarchy, makes allegations that this pope or that pope are weak or that the papacy in general is lacking in strength or whatever sends a horrible message. It reminds me of the invasion in Iraq when Geraldo Rivera started to draw the map on the sand in front of the cameras for the world to see, including the enemy.

We may as well tell every opponent of the Church and every dissident Catholic that they have the advantage, because the papacy and hierarchy are not doing their jobs. Such a statement is false of course. Just because they’re not doing it as we believe it should be done is not the same as not doing it.

Are there going to be people who are more effective and more engaged than others? Of course. That’s part of being human and that will never go away.

I do understand what you are saying in your post overall, but, as you are well aware, the Pope can excommunicate whomever he wants simply by stating that the excommunication has occurred.

There are no circumstances where he is not ‘allowed’ to execute this facet of his ministry in regards to one of the Catholic faithful.

I do know that this was almost certainly a phrasing that you did not mean, but I wanted to make sure that it was clarified for the sake of all who are reading this thread.

You must have missed my statement further down. I said that beyond those 7 times, only the pope can excommunicate, even if it’s because he does not like your toothbrush. I gave the examples of the monarchs who have been excommunicated because they would not align themselves with the pope’s political position.

Even though Canon Law says that a bishop can excommunicate, such an excommunication still have to be approved by the Vatican. He can’t just excommunicate and not inform the Vatican. Ultimately, it is the Holy Father who has the final word, not the local bishop. The local bishop can get the ball rolling. The pope can affirm or retract the excommunication.

 

[IesumPerMariam]

Last time I checked, the Constitution is based on the natural law, so your statement makes no sense.

And yet, based on the Constitution, people are allowed to murder their babies. Last time I checked, that violates Natural Law. So his statement makes perfect sense.

“It is good to confide in the Lord, rather than to have confidence in man” (Ps 117, 8).

 

[ProVobis]

I have heard nothing but good things about Cardinal Burke, I hope he becomes Pope!

On the flip side, the U.S. would be losing a valuable Cardinal. Just saying.

 

[IesumPerMariam]

On the flip side, the U.S. would be losing a valuable Cardinal. Just saying.

We don’t really have him right now though, since His Eminence has been assigned full-time in Rome as Prefect of the Supreme Tribunal of the Apostolic Signatura. We “lost” him in 2008, but the Universal Church “gained” a great canonist and prelate. His Eminence would make a wonderful Pope too!

 

[New2Mass]

You should ask the people in St. Louis, where he was the Archbishop prior to being made a cardinal.

 

[Esrb99]

You should ask the people in St. Louis, where he was the Archbishop prior to being made a cardinal.

Last time I checked, they loved him too. He came to visit last year:

http://www.institute-christ-king.org/uploads/main/news/2012_stlouis-burke2.jpg

If you’re talking about the St. Stanislaus folks, their opinion doesn’t count. They’re not Catholic (they even said so).

 

[Monkey1976]

Last time I checked, they loved him too. He came to visit last year:

http://www.institute-christ-king.org/uploads/main/news/2012_stlouis-burke2.jpg

If you’re talking about the St. Stanislaus folks, their opinion doesn’t count. They’re not Catholic (they even said so).

I recognize that sanctuary!

Had I a vote, it would be for Card. Burke. I only met him once during my first scrutiny for RCIA, but he struck me as a very humble and very holy man.

If it is him, I wonder if we could see a Papal Solemn Mass celebrated at St. Francis…

 

[Monkey1976]

I recognize that sanctuary!

Had I a vote, it would be for Card. Burke. I only met him once during my first scrutiny for RCIA, but he struck me as a very humble and very holy man.

If it is him, I wonder if we could see a Papal Solemn Mass celebrated at St. Francis…

That said, I would enjoy seeing Dolan elected, too. Maybe we could see a cause opened for Stan the Man

 

[Esrb99]

I recognize that sanctuary!

Had I a vote, it would be for Card. Burke. I only met him once during my first scrutiny for RCIA, but he struck me as a very humble and very holy man.

If it is him, I wonder if we could see a Papal Solemn Mass celebrated at St. Francis…

I bet he would-and an OF mass at the Cathedral-Basilica too!

 

[Megan7]

Last time I checked, they loved him too. He came to visit last year:

http://www.institute-christ-king.org/uploads/main/news/2012_stlouis-burke2.jpg

If you’re talking about the St. Stanislaus folks, their opinion doesn’t count. They’re not Catholic (they even said so).

What a lovely picture,thanks for sharing:thumbsup:

 

[Rocky24]

What a horrible and very unfranciscan thought. The election of a pontiff is not about victory. This is not a political game, nor a competition between factions: traditionalist vs mainstream Catholics.

It’s this kind of comment that gives traditionalism a black eye. Non traditionalists start to think that traditionalism is about triumph rather than faith. Nothing can be further from the truth.

It is also a statement that makes another statement, “We’re right and you’re wrong. We’re out to conquer and dominate the rest of you lower level Catholics who don’t see it our way.” That’s truly not what this is about.

Pope Benedict was working on correcting the mistakes that people made in the Ordinary Form. The so called liturgical reform was not a movement to restore the Tridentine Form to the Ordinary Form. He said many times that the Mass promulgated by Pope Paul VI remains the norm for the Latin Catholic Church. There was no intent to rescind this. The intent was to correct the nonsense that people added on their own.

Brother,
I was not referring to the election of our Roman Pontiff being a “victory”, rather I was referring to the fact that such a traditional and orthodox man like Cardinal Burke would take action against many things which pass off today in our Church as being the norm (giving Holy Communion to pro-abort politicians, rampant liturgical abuses, “ObamaCare”, problems in the Curia, scandalous underground networks etc.)
I think we can both agree that our Church has had triumphs in Her 2000 year history. Was not the defeat of sin at Cavalry a triumph? Wasn’t the Resurrection of Our Lord a triumph?
Are not those who go to Heaven part of the Church Triumphant? Of course!
Wouldn’t it be a triumph, then, if our Church is cleansed and rises above all these heresies and evils which attack her? Faith and triumph are paired together! We need to remember the past and get a bit of zeal and fire within us to battle our enemies.
We who adhere to the Extraordinary Form of the Mass do not seek to “conquer” or “dominate” the so called “low level” Catholics. We’re all in the same camp.

 

[Cat]

Brother,
I was not referring to the election of our Roman Pontiff being a “victory”, rather I was referring to the fact that such a traditional and orthodox man like Cardinal Burke would take action against many things which pass off today in our Church as being the norm (giving Holy Communion to pro-abort politicians, rampant liturgical abuses, “ObamaCare”, problems in the Curia, scandalous underground networks etc.)
I think we can both agree that our Church has had triumphs in Her 2000 year history. Was not the defeat of sin at Cavalry a triumph? Wasn’t the Resurrection of Our Lord a triumph?
Are not those who go to Heaven part of the Church Triumphant? Of course!
Wouldn’t it be a triumph, then, if our Church is cleansed and rises above all these heresies and evils which attack her? Faith and triumph are paired together! We need to remember the past and get a bit of zeal and fire within us to battle our enemies.
We who adhere to the Extraordinary Form of the Mass do not seek to “conquer” or “dominate” the so called “low level” Catholics. We’re all in the same camp.

“Obamacare?” You include “Obamacare” in a list of things that are “in our Church as being the norm”?!

What are you talking about? Obamacare has nothing to do with the Catholic Church.

I and many others personally don’t like Obamacare, and I don’t think it will help bring good healthcare to all U.S. residents, and I think the higher taxes and various expenses of Obamacare will hurt families who are already strapped financially.

But there are just as many intelligent, thoughful, and CHRISTIAN people who DO like Obamacare, and consider it a Godsend for the U.S., and point out all kinds of good things about Obamacare.

At any rate, a Pope can do nothing do stop U.S. law of the land, as we have seen since 1972 with legalized abortion. If the Pope COULD stop abortion in the U.S., I’m sure he would. But he can’t, and he can’t stop Obamacare, either.

And the Pope can’t dictate to Catholics the “correct” stand on laws like Obamacare which are essentially morally-neutral. The HHS Mandate is part of Obamacare, but it’s not “Obamacare,” it’s just one very bad (deadly) part that needs to be stricken from the Act.

I do hope that the new Pope has a better understanding of and a true LOVE for the United States and our culture than Pope Benedict XVI did. I think that would be helpful to the Catholic Church in the U.S. Cardinal Burke definitely understands our culture, and he loves the U.S.

But we can’t expect a Pope to devote an inordinate amount of attention to just one country.

 

[Marie5890]

I am curious does any one think he really has a chance at being elected? All imagination aside?

I haven’t heard a peep about him at all other than here.

 

[Spudbynight]

I am curious does any one think he really has a chance at being elected? All imagination aside?

I haven’t heard a peep about him at all other than here.

I think it is highly unlikely that we will see a pope from the United States. Personally I think that is a good thing. America is not popular in the world and having an American pope would just hand a big stick to the enemies of the Church.

I would love to see either Cardinals Burke or Ranjith but I can’t see either of them in the running. I think Cardinal Schola would be an excellent choice.

 

[ringil]

I am curious does any one think he really has a chance at being elected? All imagination aside?

I haven’t heard a peep about him at all other than here.

No. He hasn’t got a chance.

He has a certain camp of fans in the US Church and that camp is especially present around these parts.

 

[Marie5890]

I think it is highly unlikely that we will see a pope from the United States.

Why do you say that? I understand that Cardinal O’Malley’s name been mentioned as viable.

 

[Spudbynight]

Why do you say that? I understand that Cardinal O’Malley’s name been mentioned as viable.

Well, this is just opinion but I think for the following reasons :

1 - Americans are not popular around the world. The next pope is going to struggle to interact with an increasingly secular world. Being American will just give non Catholics another reason to oppose the Church. America is viewed in many counties as interfering. Being American will be a distraction to many who should be listening to what the pontiff says. (I am not being anti-American. I think a British pope is unlikely for very similar reasons)
2 - Dignitatis Humanae - there is still a lot of resentment over how the American bishops influenced this. As I understand it there is ill will over how they sought to take aspects of the American Constitution and impose them on the Church. Perception in some quarters is
3 - Clerical Abuse - This has been particularly prevalent in America. I think the only country with more cases per capita (Catholic capita?) has been Ireland. This is a particularly hot potato and one which I don’t think the Church in America has gotten over yet. While some Cardinals have dealt with things well I think they are tarred by association with the likes of Cardinal Mahony.
4 - Dissent - From what I read the perception of Catholicism in America is that open dissent is more prevalent than in other countries. Certainly on matters such as abortion, contraception, female ordination and other non negotiable there is a lot of open dissent.

These are only my opinions. I read from sources around the world (and not just English speaking). The only American Cardinal I see mentioned regularly outside the US as being “in the running” is Cardinal Dolan.

 

[SisterSnowflake]

We had an assignment in my 10th grade religion class. The kids had to read the bios of ALL of the Cardinals. Next each student had to make a list of five Cardinals who particularly impressed them and they had to state why.

Today, we had a pretend conclave and Cardinal Burke was the chosen candidate.

 

[Marie5890]

Well, this is just opinion but I think for the following reasons :

1 - Americans are not popular around the world. The next pope is going to struggle to interact with an increasingly secular world. Being American will just give non Catholics another reason to oppose the Church. America is viewed in many counties as interfering. Being American will be a distraction to many who should be listening to what the pontiff says. (I am not being anti-American. I think a British pope is unlikely for very similar reasons)
2 - Dignitatis Humanae - there is still a lot of resentment over how the American bishops influenced this. As I understand it there is ill will over how they sought to take aspects of the American Constitution and impose them on the Church. Perception in some quarters is
3 - Clerical Abuse - This has been particularly prevalent in America. I think the only country with more cases per capita (Catholic capita?) has been Ireland. This is a particularly hot potato and one which I don’t think the Church in America has gotten over yet. While some Cardinals have dealt with things well I think they are tarred by association with the likes of Cardinal Mahony.
4 - Dissent - From what I read the perception of Catholicism in America is that open dissent is more prevalent than in other countries. Certainly on matters such as abortion, contraception, female ordination and other non negotiable there is a lot of open dissent.

These are only my opinions. I read from sources around the world (and not just English speaking). The only American Cardinal I see mentioned regularly outside the US as being “in the running” is Cardinal Dolan.

Thanks for sharing.

I wonder if that is how the cardinal electors are facing this election.

I have to admit I have heard O’Malley mentioned several times. Infact one of the Italian news papers did a poll with the Italian (or perhaps it was just the Roman) citizens and O’Malley won hands down.

What I have heard is that the congregations in the past week were focusing on issues rather than personalities. And the biggest pressing issue that they seem to all agree on, if you can trust the reporting, is the reform of the Curia.

 

[Spudbynight]

Thanks for sharing.

I wonder if that is how the cardinal electors are facing this election.

I have to admit I have heard O’Malley mentioned several times. Infact one of the Italian news papers did a poll with the Italian (or perhaps it was just the Roman) citizens and O’Malley won hands down.

What I have heard is that the congregations in the past week were focusing on issues rather than personalities. And the biggest pressing issue that they seem to all agree on, if you can trust the reporting, is the reform of the Curia.

We really don’t know. There are lots of people proffering opinions - most of the experts "missed’ any mention of Cardinal Ratzinger at the last conclave.

Cardinals Burke or Ranjith are the Cardinals I am hoping for - maybe we might get a pleasant surprise.