Cardinal Burke: Liturgical abuse ‘strictly correlated’ with the ‘moral corruption’ of our time

[crazzeto]

The only question that remains is whether it can be done to everyone’s satisfaction.

Certainly not, but a fuller return sacrosanctum concilium would be a great starting point. Perhaps even greater encouragement of the positive suggestions, like the pride of place of gregorian chant

 

[otjm]

Good, let’s start at my parish level. Let’s sell all my parish’s temporal goods and give the proceeds to the poor. Now where are we?

We have no worship building, no sacred vessels or vestments, and we can’t afford a steady stream of wine and hosts, therefore Mass is canceled forever.

We can’t afford to pay anyone’s salary and we don’t have an office anyway, so my job is eliminated, and I become one more poor person.

All the contractors who used to do work at the parish: our IT managers, our roofers and bathroom supply company, our electricians and maintenance workers, they are looking for other contracts because they lost ours.

Everybody with need for the sacraments must go elsewhere. Anyone with a certificate request must contact the diocese because we no longer have anywhere to store the registers required by Canon Law, and we don’t have a telephone to answer anyway.

We have no piano or organ, so choir rehearsal is canceled. We don’t need one anyway.

We have no meeting halls, so the Knights of Columbus won’t be meeting any more. We’re giving all our money to the poor, so there isn’t any insurance for members and their families, and there is no revenue to support pro-life causes, or vocations to the priesthood and the religious life. There are no Patriotic Degree Knights in regalia to serve as an honor guard at liturgies, which are canceled anyway.

But look at all the good you did by giving the money to the poor!

WOW! :extrahappy: That is about as close to perfect proof of the dictum “anything taken to its logical extreme is illogical” as I have seen in a long time!

 

[TimothyH]

I want to point out that correlation does not prove causation.

Two things that are correlated may or may not be related, but correlation does not prove causation, nor should one infer that one causes the other.

One hundred percent of people who drink orange juice will die.

Strict correlation, yes, but it in no way implies that one causes the other.

One could say that liturgical abuse is strictly correlated with moral corruption just as easily as one could say that moral corruption is strictly correlated with ligurical abuse. Neither should be taken that one is the cause of the other.

***The counter assumption, that correlation proves causation, is considered a questionable cause logical fallacy in that two events occurring together are taken to have a cause-and-effect relationship. This fallacy is also known as cum hoc ergo propter hoc, Latin for “with this, therefore because of this”, and “false cause”. A similar fallacy, that an event that follows another was necessarily a consequence of the first event, is sometimes described as post hoc ergo propter hoc (Latin for “after this, therefore because of this”).

Read More…***

Yes, liturgical abuse and moral corruption are both occuring at the same time. They are correlated events, but that does not imply that one is the cause of the other.

-Tim-

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

I think we all have a tendency to see our modern times as the worst of moral times. Genocide and slavery occurred during times of strict liturgical rules. Its a problem as old as human history:

Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.

-Socrates

 

[YoungTradCath]

I think we all have a tendency to see our modern times as the worst of moral times. Genocide and slavery occurred during times of strict liturgical rules. Its a problem as old as human history:

I agree, but would you not agree that things at least are not getting any better, and in fact the last century or so has been, proportionally, the most violent and murderous of all recorded history? We always have problems, but I am not sure to this degree.

 

[Fr.Charles_Grondin]

I agree, but would you not agree that things at least are not getting any better, and in fact the last century or so has been, proportionally, the most violent and murderous of all recorded history? We always have problems, but I am not sure to this degree.

I’m not sure if its “proportionally” the most violent and murderous of history. Surely the numbers are greater, but that could also be simply because there were a greater number of people around. Proportionally speaking, the native populations of North America were almost wiped out from European conquest and the peoples of Central and South America when not genocided were enslaved. That’s two entire continents of peoples.

And, as I pointed out, the horrors of the 1st half of the 20th century were executed during a period of rigid liturgical standards.

In the larger picture, liturgical issues are on the decline. The 70’s and early 80’s were the hay-day of ridiculousness. Things certainly aren’t perfect today, but I think overall its headed in the right direction (liturgically).

 

[ProVobis]

Certainly not, but a fuller return sacrosanctum concilium would be a great starting point. Perhaps even greater encouragement of the positive suggestions, like the pride of place of gregorian chant

I wish that too, but I don’t think anything against SC counts as a liturgical abuse, not anymore anyway. I hear at least ten minutes of adlibbing in a vernacular I don’t understand, people clapping to every hymn, but otherwise it’s reverent so I just assume it’s all allowed.

 

[crazzeto]

I wish that too, but I don’t think anything against SC counts as a liturgical abuse, not anymore anyway. I hear at least ten minutes of adlibbing in a vernacular I don’t understand, people clapping to every hymn, but otherwise it’s reverent so I just assume it’s all allowed.

Not really, Pope Benedict XVI had much to say about clapping for instance. Just because liturgical abuse is accepted, that doesn’t mean it’s allowed. Remember, most don’t realize there is a problem to start with. This is part or what pushes me in a more traditional direction.

 

[GangGreen]

lifesitenews.com/news/cardinal-burke-liturgical-abuse-strictly-correlated-with-the-moral-corrupti

http://thehomesteadingboards.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/x1nv5-the-rock-clapping.gif

 

[janeway529]

lifesitenews.com/news/cardinal-burke-liturgical-abuse-strictly-correlated-with-the-moral-corrupti

Hmm…clearly Cardinal Burke hasn’t dealt with enough priest sex abuse cases, considering that a lot of “moral corruption” of children happened before the Second Vatican Council.

Consider this statistical graph from the Los Angeles abuse documents, for example:
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

(Taken from: clergyfiles.la-archdiocese.org/listing.html)

 

[EphelDuath]

Hmm…clearly Cardinal Burke hasn’t dealt with enough priest sex abuse cases, considering that a lot of “moral corruption” of children happened before the Second Vatican Council.

So? There can’t be liturgical abuses in the Tridentine Mass?

 

[janeway529]

So? There can’t be liturgical abuses in the Tridentine Mass?

That’s exactly my point.

Most people forget or don’t consider that liturgical abuse happened in the Tridentine Mass. The abuses were less visible than it would be in the OF.

 

[EphelDuath]

That’s exactly my point.

Most people forget or don’t consider that liturgical abuse happened in the Tridentine Mass. The abuses were less visible than it would be in the OF.

Nobody was saying there was never liturgical abuses in the Tridentine Mass.

It’s just more commonly associated with the OF because liberal priests infected with modernism would never, ever worship in the EF. But those same priests had to celebrate the Tridentine Mass prior to Vatican II.

 

[ProVobis]

Not really, Pope Benedict XVI had much to say about clapping for instance. Just because liturgical abuse is accepted, that doesn’t mean it’s allowed. Remember, most don’t realize there is a problem to start with. This is part or what pushes me in a more traditional direction.

Hmmm. There might be some conflicting opinions on this. A certain amount of liturgical dance, for example, is allowed in some cultures. Same with clapping to every hymn, I would think.

 

[TimothyH]

Nobody was saying there was never liturgical abuses in the Tridentine Mass.

It’s just more commonly associated with the OF because liberal priests infected with modernism would never, ever worship in the EF. But those same priests had to celebrate the Tridentine Mass prior to Vatican II.

I’m struggling with this.

If they are the “same priests” then they would be liberal priests infected with modernism both before and after Vatican II irrespective of the form of Mass.

-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

The bottom line is that correlation is not the same as causation.

Whether there is or isn’t an increase in liturgical abuse nor an increase in moral corruption, the fact that the two are taking place at the same time does not infer that one causes the other.

Correlation shows that two things are related in some way. Correlation may be as simple as the fact that two things are happening at the same time. I can correlate an iceberg falling off a glacier in Alaska and my dinner in the state of Georgia if they both happen at 6:30 this evening, but it does not mean that one causes the other, just that they are related in some way.

With all due respect to the His Excellency, correlation should never be confused with causation.

-Tim-

 

[clem456]

The bottom line is that correlation is not the same as causation.

Whether there is or isn’t an increase in liturgical abuse nor an increase in moral corruption, the fact that the two are taking place at the same time does not infer that one causes the other.

Correlation shows that two things are related in some way. Correlation may be as simple as the fact that two things are happening at the same time. I can correlate an iceberg falling off a glacier in Alaska and my dinner in the state of Georgia if they both happen at 6:30 this evening, but it does not mean that one causes the other, just that they are related in some way.

With all due respect to the His Excellency, correlation should never be confused with causation.

-Tim-

Bingo on the bolded

A couple of questions come to mind…(I don’t pretend to have answers)

Is a morally corrupt priest more likely to abuse the liturgy?

Does a priest who abuses the liturgy, whether intentionally, or through some ingrained local custom of some kind, become morally corrupt because he abuses the liturgy?

Do laity who participate in less than orthodox liturgy become morally corrupt because of their participation in it?

Is a morally corrupt lay person more like to advocate for or participate in unorthodox abuses at Mass?

Can those who participate in completely orthodox liturgy be morally corrupt?

If a person is morally corrupt (in mortal sin I guess?), is it even possible for them to be participating in the liturgy in an orthodox way?

 

[pnewton]

With all due respect to the His Excellency, correlation should never be confused with causation.

Then, with “all due respect,” I would like to point out that Cardinal Burke did not confuse the two. He never stated there was a causative relationship.

 

[Julian_Bashir]

*Yawn…

Is he still wearing that cappa magna? Kind’ve ridiculous that he dresses better than the pope.

I just got back from Haiti. I wonder how much good could be done there for the cost of his Cappa Magna. I guess that makes me a Communist, too. So be it.*

So says people using internet service that would likely provide the cost to provide 400 meals for destitute families. help.feedingamerica.org/site/PageServer?pagename=giveame