Cardinal George Pell: High Court quashes abuse convictions

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Yes it is one of those shows that make you go hmm, what is the agenda. I am glad certain episodes have been pulled. That reporter from the racing channel was well vindicated, he is worth tuning into at the moment.
There are reportedly 2 new and recent accusations though.
I am really trying to say a certain person should head out under the cover of a trades van, and hop a fast cruise ship out of that country while no one wants to even look in the direction of cruise ships, and head north 🐣😎🦠🌹
 
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Actually it can and such a situation (one complainant with not corroborating physical evidence) is common is rape and sexual abuse cases.
Yes, I think that’s correct. And it does not sit well with me.
 
Yes, I think that’s correct. And it does not sit well with me.
The nature of offending of this kind is that it typically happens in private or at least in a way that’s not likely to be noticed by others for kind of obvious reasons. Unfortunately the CSI effect has led people to believe that cases should involve a whole heap of forensic evidence when in reality they often don’t. This of course means that there will only be the complainant’s evidence. That evidence is however tested in court through cross examination, allowing inconsistencies to be examined. If the defendant gives evidence then the jury will have their side of the story to consider as well. Ultimately, it comes down to credibility; that is, deciding whether something has the ring of truth about it - something which pretty much everyone has experience in doing as part of their every day lives.
 
The nature of offending of this kind is that it typically happens in private or at least in a way that’s not likely to be noticed by others for kind of obvious reasons. Unfortunately the CSI effect has led people to believe that cases should involve a whole heap of forensic evidence when in reality they often don’t. This of course means that there will only be the complainant’s evidence. That evidence is however tested in court through cross examination, allowing inconsistencies to be examined. If the defendant gives evidence then the jury will have their side of the story to consider as well. Ultimately, it comes down to credibility; that is, deciding whether something has the ring of truth about it - something which pretty much everyone has experience in doing as part of their every day lives.
When the evidence of the complainant, as opposed to an independent 3rd party, is sufficient to legally prove that same complainant’s allegation - we all need to fear people who can tell a convincing story!
 
we all need to fear people who can tell a convincing story!
Which is what happened with claimant J, the jury and the first court of appeal.

The conviction was based solely on the perceived “credibility” of J.

The longer the passage of time between the imagined (or contrived) offence and the trial, the more the rules for trial and evidence for such a claim disadvantage the accused.

Pell was very, very, very fortunate to have an alibi which covered 10 minutes on a day 20 years ago, and which, of course, he had no specific recollection of. Most people falsely accused in similar circumstances would have no such good fortune, and would be a sitting duck for the “person who can tell a convincing story”, especially in a climate of sympathy for them and enmity to the accused.
If the defendant gives evidence then the jury will have their side of the story to consider as well.
How can a person have a “side of the story” for ten minutes on a day twenty years ago when they were just going about their business, completely unaware that in the distant future someone unknown to them will accuse them of a heinous crime during that ten minutes?

All most of us could say is “I don’t remember what I was doing then, but I didn’t do it” against a powerful, traumatic, and convincing, but utterly false, story.

Pell did not take the stand at trial, as he is entitled to, and is common in criminal trials.

In the other famous Australian case of a miscarriage of justice, the two defendants Lindy Chamberlain and Michael Chamberlain each took the stand in their defence, told the truth, and were not believed by the jury. They were convicted of murdering their own child… This was also over a matter of ten to twenty minutes, with little corroborating evidence.
Ultimately, it comes down to credibility; that is, deciding whether something has the ring of truth about it - something which pretty much everyone has experience in doing as part of their every day lives.
And that is where Pell was convicted of a serious crime he didn’t commit, and anyone else could be as well. Most, however, wouldn’t have the good fortune of an airtight alibi from decades ago.

The problem of uncorroborated evidence in historical charges of sexual assault is very serious, and an innocent accused is at a strong disadvantage.

This case tells us we need to do something about this quickly, or all of us (or our children) be prepared to face a serious but false accusation in decades time, especially if we become successful and prominent in life (although Lindy Chamberlain was not such). I could add “politics/religion” to this, but the winds which currently disadvantage one side may well change through 180 degrees.
 
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Rau:
we all need to fear people who can tell a convincing story!
Which is what happened with claimant J, the jury and the first court of appeal.

The conviction was based solely on their perceived “credibility” of J.
And the possibility is that “J” might have been abused and have a truthful recall, but of another male in some kind of liturgical regalia, just not Cdl Pell. There is no doubt that Australian clergy and Church officials have as bad offending records of this sort as every other country.
 
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And that is where Pell was convicted of a serious crime he didn’t commit, and anyone else could be as well. Most, however, wouldn’t have the good fortune of an airtight alibi from decades ago.
I agree with much of your post. However, we should point out that the outcome of the court process did not determine the crime was not committed, just that there is reasonable doubt. Had Pell an air-tight alibi, rather than the recollections of several witnesses as to standard practice after mass, we could indeed be talking about exoneration and perjury, but no one is.

It is such a shame that we seem unable to discover what really underpins Witness J’s testimony - be it some truth, some confusion with other events, or whatever. But it does not seem that he simply made up a story. I heard the Archbishop of Melbourne - who says he believes Pell - also expressing considerable concern for Witness J. And Frank Brennan (Jesuit Priest and Law professor) made some reference to a priest abusing J.
 
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Emeraldlady touched on that a couple of posts ago.
The fact is Cardinal Pell has been proven innocent of this crime at that time.
 
The fact is Cardinal Pell has been proven innocent of this crime at that time.
What is your basis for asserting that as fact? To the best of my knowledge, he has been found not guilty. Courts fo not declare innocence.
 
Rau, there’s an exclusive interview to air on Skynews at 7pm on Tuesday April the 11th.
I’m sorry that you don’t seem to find him innocent of these terrible crimes .He says he is innocent,I believe him.
God bless.
 
I’m sorry that you don’t seem to find him innocent
I have no idea of whether or not Pell committed any crime. But I certainly concur with the view that there was considerable & reasonable doubt. Your assertion about “he has been proven innocent” is simply objectively wrong. Courts don’t do that.
 
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Greenfields:
The fact is Cardinal Pell has been proven innocent of this crime at that time.
What is your basis for asserting that as fact? To the best of my knowledge, he has been found not guilty. Courts fo not declare innocence.
Yet you are talking about the ‘not guilty’ finding as lack of “exoneration”? You are asking for something which you admit courts don’t do.

We are able to form our own opinion of the defence evidence. It certainly is a very, very strong alibi. Whether it’s “airtight” could be debated. The only hole would be if a remote combination of unlikelihoods happened.

My point was that this sort of alibi is what one will need against a “credible” complainant for something which didn’t happen. The alibi has to be better than strong, it has to be very, very strong. And which most people wouldn’t be able to produce for ten minutes in their life decades ago.

I believe the defence evidence that this couldn’t have happened, as well as other evidence which wasn’t presented in court.

As to why witness J was able to present a credible testimony for something which didn’t happen, I don’t know and won’t speculate, apart from noting that he was encouraged to by the police and the media. Whether he was then dishonest, confabulated the whole thing in his mind from a faulty memory, or transferred an abuse which did actually happen to the wrong time and place (as suggested by @EmeralLady), I have no idea.
 
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Yet you are talking about the ‘not guilty’ finding as lack of “exoneration”? You are asking for something which you admit courts don’t do.
No, I’m simply correcting others who express the court finding as “proving innocence” or “exoneration”. Sadly, when one is accused and a matter is taken to court, one is not formally proven innocent. This might happen in a practical sense if a complainant is found to have lied under oath, or if some other person is uncovered who admits to the crime. Unfortunately we don’t have such a revelation here.
My point was that this sort of alibi is what one will need against a “credible” complainant for something which didn’t happen.
Yes, I’ve made that point also. I find it very disturbing.
 
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Greenfields:
I’m sorry that you don’t seem to find him innocent
I have no idea of whether or not Pell committed any crime…
Well in that case, I “have no idea” as to the question of whether or not you yourself might be a pedophile.

That’s fair enough - isn’t it? That’s your standard of epistemic humility.

I simply wouldn’t know whether you might be capable of such a disgusting; filthy act.

How’s that for keeping an open mind?
 
Well in that case, I “ have no idea ” as to the question of whether or not you yourself might be a pedophile.
Clearly you have no idea as to the crimes I have or have not committed. Or do you think you have some special insight?
I simply wouldn’t know whether you might be capable of such a disgusting; filthy act.
Correct. But of course it’s natural to presume people we randomly encounter - absent information to the contrary - are rather more “typical” in their behaviours. And in the legal context, the accused are “presumed innocent”. Of course, the best they can hope to be found at trial is “not guilty”. Pell of course is not a random individual - he has been on the receiving end of a number of accusations, involving police enquiry, though none were accompanied by compelling evidence. I don’t think Pell would blame people who don’t know him, other than through these allegations, for holding some doubt.
How’s that for keeping an open mind?
I’m ok with it. But mystified as you why such valid and objective observations appear to be a struggle for you.
 
vigilantism
And how much different is the damage to the church when someone lies like this vs. using a physical weapon?

Justice Kavanaugh had three mysterious female accusers suddenly appear from nowhere, make wild accusations which were found groundless and yet they walked.
 
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Entirely as predicted , victorian police have opened a new investigation on a new case of abuse against Cardinal Pell

@Emeraldlady reminder for the link,for the interview in about 10 hrs.

I am trying to find a news report on the fresh investigation and charges that is not behind a pay wall.
 
Some in Vic police and the ABC would find the High Courts decision like a red flag to a bull. They’ll be terrified an any inquiry into their agenda and behaviour hence the rush to manufacture some new scandal to divert attention back to Cdl Pell. This story mentions the new accusation briefly but nothing more substantial has been offered yet. It’s how they did it last time. Keep announcing there’d be charges years before the charges were laid. So predictable.

 
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