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Cardinal Murphy OConnor of Westminster refuses Archbishop Burke in Wesminster
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M
maurin
Guest
Has anyone told the Cardinal that according to the Vicar of Christ, His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI, no Priest needs the Cardinal’s permission?
Is the Cardinal schismatic, wanting to set up his own parallel magisterium to decide these things?
Is the Cardinal schismatic, wanting to set up his own parallel magisterium to decide these things?
H
Hesychios
Guest
Hello Maurin,
Archbishop Burke has no jurisdiction in that diocese. He, like all outside priests and bishops, must ask permission to celebrate Mass in another bishop’s diocese. One may ask, but never take for granted that the permission will be granted. I think that if Archbishop Burke desires to celebrate the Traditional Latin Mass on that date he can do it wherever else his own jurisdiction applies (I suppose Rome), or in a place he will be accorded permission.
Archbishop Burke knows this all quite well, and whether it bothers him or not he knows Cardinal Murphy-O’Connor is within his rights.
Only the Pope has universal jurisdiction. I suppose theoretically the Pope could give the Archbishop permission for this one occasion, but he apparently will not intervene, perhaps he was not approached or perhaps he is interested in supporting the local bishop’s right to run his own diocese.
I am assuming that since this particular Mass is for the Latin Mass Society, the Mass that will be celebrated will be in the Extraordinary Form anyway. So there is really no problem here.
Much about nothing.
I am sorry but I believe this really does not apply to this case. The issue is over jurisdiction, and Cardinal Murphy-O’Connor is correct in his position. It seems a bit rude of him, but that’s about all.
Archbishop Burke has no jurisdiction in that diocese. He, like all outside priests and bishops, must ask permission to celebrate Mass in another bishop’s diocese. One may ask, but never take for granted that the permission will be granted. I think that if Archbishop Burke desires to celebrate the Traditional Latin Mass on that date he can do it wherever else his own jurisdiction applies (I suppose Rome), or in a place he will be accorded permission.
Archbishop Burke knows this all quite well, and whether it bothers him or not he knows Cardinal Murphy-O’Connor is within his rights.
Only the Pope has universal jurisdiction. I suppose theoretically the Pope could give the Archbishop permission for this one occasion, but he apparently will not intervene, perhaps he was not approached or perhaps he is interested in supporting the local bishop’s right to run his own diocese.
I am assuming that since this particular Mass is for the Latin Mass Society, the Mass that will be celebrated will be in the Extraordinary Form anyway. So there is really no problem here.
Much about nothing.
J
JReducation
Guest
I think I see what is happening here. I do believe that the Cardinal acted very undiplomatically. But there is another point.
No priest can celebrate a mass in any church without the prior consent of pator. The loca bishop is the pastor of the local cathedral. The Cardinal should have been approached first for the proper permission.
Given that the celebrant in question is a high ranking church official, he should have let it go and simply told the Latin Mass Society that they needed to ask first, for the next time.
He does not need to attend. That is is his perrogative. He does need to give the permission.
Again, this is not some unknown priest that one does not have proof if he is validly ordained etc. In his position, I would have let it go and told the organizers of the event how the protocol works for the next time.
Fraternally,
JR
PS. Religious who are priests do need permission from their major superiors to celebrate the EF. They are governed by the satutes and rules of their religious communities. The Motu Proprio does not cover them. But this does not apply in this case. Cardinal Burke is a secular priest, not a religious.
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bkovacs
Guest
Your right JR, but also remember Cardinal Cormac despises the Extra-Ordinary Form of the Mass. He was against Summorum Pontificum, and along with his fellow bishops did not attend the TLM last year, when Cardinal Hoyas celebrated at Westminster. I think he has done this, because of his view of the Extra-Ordinary form and the Latin Mass Society. We need to face it JR, there is a battle taking place right now within the church. An apostasy that Pope John Paul 2 warned about. It doesn’t have anything to do with Williamson and the SSPX. But it has to do with traditional Catholicism and not losing it. And that includes the Traditional Latin Mass and the traditions, pius and non pius that existed before Vatican 2. It’s only that the SSPX have brought it to light. Pray for the Holy Father!. Or we will loose those traditions we hold dear, as well as our Catholic identity.
J
Joe_Kelley
Guest
Isn’t the Apostolic Signatura the final authority on Church Law?
J
JReducation
Guest
It’s like the Justice Dept of the Vatican. Analogies are weak, but that’s the best I can come up with at this time of night.
But that does not mean that Burke can celebrate mass wherever he wants. Burke is a bishop like any other bishop. The only bishop who can celebrate mass in any church or religious house in the world, without permission, is the Pope.
Of course the bishop of a diocese can celebrate mass in any church in his diocese, but not in male religious houses without the permission of the superior.
The issue is one of Ordinary Jurisdiction. Burke is not the Ordinary of Westminster.
Nonetheless, I stand by my statement. In charity, I would have allowed the slip in protocol pass with a mild reminder to the organizers.
However, life is not always perfect.
Fraternally,
JR
I
I_Believe
Guest
Surprised ?
It’s all adding up. The discarding of the Tiara, and the promotion of Collegiality.
I’ve suspected something for over a year now, but I can’t speak of it here. But don’t be surprised if a shocking event is revealed. And it will be revealed by someone on his deathbed, if he’s still alive that is.
It’s all adding up. The discarding of the Tiara, and the promotion of Collegiality.
I’ve suspected something for over a year now, but I can’t speak of it here. But don’t be surprised if a shocking event is revealed. And it will be revealed by someone on his deathbed, if he’s still alive that is.
J
JReducation
Guest
As our holy father St. Francis told us, it is not for us to judge the motives of anyone who is above us. It is always our place to be the most humble of people and welcome any form of misunderstanding. We must never leave the side of those who misunderstand us, but remain by their side so that we may grow in humility.
There have always been battles within the Church over many issues, including the divinity of Christ. This is what makes the Church strong. It is as St. Paul says, “Gold tested by fire.”
We must always keep in mind that some traditions were disciplines that the Church has the authority to change. Others are part of revelation and those the Church cannot change. We must also keep in mind that Vatican II is not an evil that has fallen upon the Church, but an even that is part of the Church’s growth. Like all events, it has to be understood and appreciated for the good that it offers us. The mistakes that may have arisen as a result, we should put aside, as we did the mistakes that resulted from other councils too.
Let us be quicker to charity and slower to condemn.
They have done some very good things. They have also made some very serious mistakes. We have to be ojective when we look at the entire movement. Above all, we must look at all parties with love and compassion.
I always pray for the Holy Father. He is the Vicar of Christ and my superior.
Some traditions that we hold dear are good, but are not essential to our Catholic identity. Others are. We have to pray for guidance to see the difference and humility to obey when we are asked to do so.
Our holy father Francis always told us that we should obey the Pope in all things, even when we felt persecuted. He himself had to submit when Pope Honorius told him that living the Gospel literally was not practical and ordered him to rewrite our rule three times before he would put a papal bull on it. Francis held the Gospel writing very dear to his heart. However, he also knew that the Pope was the final authority concerning the correct interpretation of scripture, so he did as he was told, even though he was not happy with the end product.
St. Clare begged with Pope Honorius and Pope Gregory IX for the grace to be allowed to live the poverty of Christ. It took her 40 years to get the permission. In the meantime, she obeyed. She understood that her greatest gift to Christ was her obedience to his Vicar.
Padre Pio wrote that obedience is the highest virtue, because Christ obeyed even to the point of accepting death on a cross.
I do not believe that there is a war in the Church. I believe that we are turning these questions into conflicts. Too much personal pride and too many personal attachments on both sides are guiding our judgment. Maybe that’s why St. Teresa of Avila told her Carmelite followers that without detachment from one’s feelings and opinions, one could never see the work of God within the soul.
In the end, what matters is what Catherine of Siena called the Mystical Marriage between the soul and God. It is impossible to climb to thoe heights when we interpret every difference of opinion, every challenge, or every question as a conflict.
The word conflict steals the joy and inner peace of the soul. It steals the attention of the mind. It robs the heart of love and charity. Without joy, inner peace, attention focused on Christ, love and charity, how can we reach the height of union with the Divine?
Fraternally,
JR
J
JReducation
Guest
Pope Benedict took the tiara out of the Coat of Arms, because the last five popes want to emphasize the role of the Bishop of Rome. The tiara was the symbol of the ruler of Vatican City. It was not a symbol of the Bishop of Rome. It was not a symbol of Peter’s episcopacy.
Collegiality simply means bishops in communion with the Bishop of Rome. It is a new word for a very ancient practice.
Fraternally,
JR
I
I_Believe
Guest
J
JReducation
Guest
You do know that the Coat of Arms of the Vatican is the official symbol of the Vatican City State.
The Coat of Arms of the Pope is not the same thing. If you notice, Benedict XVI no longer ues the Coat of Arms of the Vatican on his own Coat of Arms.
There are two things that the Vatican gave up:
- Governor of the World
- Father of Kings.
Maybe we may see Benedict also change the Coat of Arms of the Vatican City State to reflect what the City State is. It is a sovereign nation of which all Catholics are citizens. I have no inside information, so I do not know if that’s in his plans. I’m speculating based on his change of the papal coat of arms.
He may also keep it, because it is part of the City’s tradition. Just like we have “In God We Trust” on many of our seals in the USA.
In any case, the Coat of Arms is not a big issue. The big thing is that the Church is alive and will remain alive.
Fraternally,
JR
I
I_Believe
Guest
JR, I know you meant the Pope’s personal coat of arms, but I just wanted to make it clear for others 
But the coat of arms has nothing to do with what I was talking about regarding the abandonment of the Tiara.
And obviously, a distorted view of collegiality has developed among certain groups of Bishops.
If all Bishops held to the definition of collegiality you offered, then we wouldn’t be seeing all of the imprudent, even arrogant attacks on our Holy Father in the wake of both the Summorum Pontificum, and the lifting of the excommunications.
Please don’t tell me all bishops are in communion with the Pope. Many have now joined the ranks of the “schismatic”. And the worst of these, as is common with many groups, are pointing fingers to divert attention from themselves.
When the Gregorian Rite was prayed for the first time in nearly 4 decades at Westminster by Cardianal Hoyos, how many UK Bishops were there ? Zero.
Ignoring the SP is not the collegiality you define.
Though this news in the OP regarding Archbishop Burke will have no connection, I think we will see his name often as the fight intensifies over the fate of the SSPX. The Pope is going to win the fight, and Archbishop Burke will be a key figure in assuring it. IMHO
But the coat of arms has nothing to do with what I was talking about regarding the abandonment of the Tiara.
And obviously, a distorted view of collegiality has developed among certain groups of Bishops.
If all Bishops held to the definition of collegiality you offered, then we wouldn’t be seeing all of the imprudent, even arrogant attacks on our Holy Father in the wake of both the Summorum Pontificum, and the lifting of the excommunications.
Please don’t tell me all bishops are in communion with the Pope. Many have now joined the ranks of the “schismatic”. And the worst of these, as is common with many groups, are pointing fingers to divert attention from themselves.
When the Gregorian Rite was prayed for the first time in nearly 4 decades at Westminster by Cardianal Hoyos, how many UK Bishops were there ? Zero.
Ignoring the SP is not the collegiality you define.
Though this news in the OP regarding Archbishop Burke will have no connection, I think we will see his name often as the fight intensifies over the fate of the SSPX. The Pope is going to win the fight, and Archbishop Burke will be a key figure in assuring it. IMHO
I
I_Believe
Guest
Well said. There are two mindsets in the Church. The ones who see what is happening, and those who can’t. Obviously, you do.
How many other groups have offered over a million Rosaries for BXVI , as has the Society ?
We had better join the Society and offer millions more, lest he see the same fate as John XXII.
U
UnusMilitum
Guest
JR, not that I doubt your word on this, but…This is ridiculous! Why would religious belonging to certain orders require special permission to celebrate the EF??? Does this not seem like madness to you?
After 40 years we have just had confirmation from the pope in regard to the point we’ve been arguing, that is, that the TLM had never been abrogated. So why would non-secular priests need permission to pray the Mass that is their birth-right? See what I mean? Just curious.
T
thistle
Guest
What on earth does this gibberish mean???
D
Dempsey1919
Guest
*]The Pope is attacked for wanting to heal a schism.
*]Liberals forced Fr. Wagner to decline the bishopric of Linz.
*]Cardinal refuses to allow Archbishop to celebrate EF.
All of this has happened in a matter of weeks. The traditionalist movement is under attack by the liberals. They have attacked the Holy Father, they have prevented an orthodox priest from becoming a Bishop, and now they have refused to allow the celebration of the EF by a senior Vatican Prelate! What’s next?
We must pray for the Pope, we must pray for the faith, and we must pray for the Church. Pope Benedict needs our support!
C
CapIV
Guest
This is sad
M
maurin
Guest
Yes! They have uncrowned Him.
M
maurin
Guest
I know, thistle, that I have thought as much of some of the things you have written, but respected your personhood enough not to actually write it out loud.
thanks for such a good example!
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