Cardinal Nichols: synod's final document insufficiently welcoming toward homosexuals [CC]

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What else could Catholics do to be more welcoming to homosexuals which would not involve compromising Church teaching?
Any solution should hang and depend on the greatest commandments.

How do we love God with all our hearts souls mind and strength?
How do we love homosexuals as we love ourselves?
How do we love divorced and remarried couples as we love ourselves?
How do we love Anglicans, Muslims atheists etc, as we love ourselves?

We are commanded to love, we are not commanded to judge, so any solution must hang on the greatest commandments, as does all the law of God.

Blessings

Eric
 
Edit. And gradualism. Gradualism, gradualism, gradualism. It is the Catholic approach to growing in holiness, and it needs to regain prominence. As a principle, it is as old as the Church, and as traditional as saying Mass on the graves of the Saints.
Thanks for that.

The thing about gradualism is that the person is moving (gradually) to a place of holiness. So we still have to be clear about the goal. A lot of people, including at least one of the Synod fathers, suggested changing language in the Catechism to be less strict. But the Catechism should represent the ultimate goal not the points along the way. If someone wants to know if homosexual behavior is sinful, he/she should be able to look at the CCC and see the answer (yes), clearly stated without equivocation. If he/she needs to know why it is sinful, the material about rightly ordered use of the gift of sexuality should also be clear.

I just don’t see anyway to change the wording in the official documents of formal definition in a way that both satisfies those who are complaining about the current language without sacrificing clarity. Even putting the emphasis on what is rightly ordered instead of what is wrongly ordered will still not change the level of “welcomeness”.
 
Thanks for that.

The thing about gradualism is that the person is moving (gradually) to a place of holiness. So we still have to be clear about the goal. A lot of people, including at least one of the Synod fathers, suggested changing language in the Catechism to be less strict. But the Catechism should represent the ultimate goal not the points along the way. If someone wants to know if homosexual behavior is sinful, he/she should be able to look at the CCC and see the answer (yes), clearly stated without equivocation. If he/she needs to know why it is sinful, the material about rightly ordered use of the gift of sexuality should also be clear.

I just don’t see anyway to change the wording in the official documents of formal definition in a way that both satisfies those who are complaining about the current language without sacrificing clarity. Even putting the emphasis on what is rightly ordered instead of what is wrongly ordered will still not change the level of “welcomeness”.
I’d say it depends on what is meant by changing the language. As I’ve pointed out a few times, the word ‘disordered’ in English no longer conveys the same meaning as the Latin word ‘inordinatus’. People with English as their first or only language almost consistently misunderstand what is meant by ‘disordered’. For this reason, I think it should be changed, to better reflect what the Church teaches.

An alternative could be ‘wrongly directed’ - this is the exact wording used in the Catechism in my native language. It accurately describes the meaning of the Latin word, and it avoids any connotations of mental illness, which are not contained in the Latin original. Sadly, the word ‘inordinate’, while derived directly from ‘inordinatus’, seems to mean something different in English, too - it conveys excess, while the Latin word does not. ‘Inordinatus’ is in this context a purely teleological term.

All of this said, I care more about what language is used by Catholics, by bishops, by priests, in pastoral guidance and evangelization, than I care about what is said in the Catechism. However, when a (de facto, since it is misinterpreted by default) mistranslation causes people to use harsher than necessary language (like speaking of the orientation as a psychiatric condition), then I start caring - but my issue is not with the Catechism, it is with the English translation. I actually find the Catechism quite compassionate and “modest” (in lack of a better term), when translated properly.
 
I’d say it depends on what is meant by changing the language. As I’ve pointed out a few times, the word ‘disordered’ in English no longer conveys the same meaning as the Latin word ‘inordinatus’. People with English as their first or only language almost consistently misunderstand what is meant by ‘disordered’. For this reason, I think it should be changed, to better reflect what the Church teaches.

An alternative could be ‘wrongly directed’ - this is the exact wording used in the Catechism in my native language. It accurately describes the meaning of the Latin word, and it avoids any connotations of mental illness, which are not contained in the Latin original. Sadly, the word ‘inordinate’, while derived directly from ‘inordinatus’, seems to mean something different in English, too - it conveys excess, while the Latin word does not. ‘Inordinatus’ is in this context a purely teleological term.

All of this said, I care more about what language is used by Catholics, by bishops, by priests, in pastoral guidance and evangelization, than I care about what is said in the Catechism. However, when a (de facto, since it is misinterpreted by default) mistranslation causes people to use harsher than necessary language (like speaking of the orientation as a psychiatric condition), then I start caring - but my issue is not with the Catechism, it is with the English translation. I actually find the Catechism quite compassionate and “modest” (in lack of a better term), when translated properly.
I don’t think it’s a mistranslation. In theology, how something is ordered is an important concept. To change it to ‘directed’ makes it more active than ‘ordered’. The latter is an attribute rather than an action. The word “directed” implies someone or something doing the directing. “Wrongly ordered” is probably more precise than either “disordered” or “wrongly directed”. But I am afraid that there would be the same knee-jerk reaction to the use of the word “wrong”. How do you convey, clearly and without ambiguity, that something is wrong without using the word ‘wrong’?

It’s true that “disorder” has now come to primarily mean an illness. And that’s why official documents are still published in Latin since the meaning doesn’t change. 😃
 
Any solution should hang and depend on the greatest commandments.

How do we love God with all our hearts souls mind and strength?
How do we love homosexuals as we love ourselves?
How do we love divorced and remarried couples as we love ourselves?
How do we love Anglicans, Muslims atheists etc, as we love ourselves?

We are commanded to love, we are not commanded to judge, so any solution must hang on the greatest commandments, as does all the law of God.

Blessings

Eric
It’s kind of complicated… Christ could read people; He knew whom to invite, no? And He never shrank from telling them to sin no more. But at the same time, they had encountered God!

And then Christ also told His apostles to shake the dust from their sandals of the towns which would not listen. And St Matthew writes, and he who will not hear he Church, let him be as a heathen or a publican (St Matthew 18:17).
 
I don’t think it’s a mistranslation. In theology, how something is ordered is an important concept. To change it to ‘directed’ makes it more active than ‘ordered’. The latter is an attribute rather than an action. The word “directed” implies someone or something doing the directing. “Wrongly ordered” is probably more precise than either “disordered” or “wrongly directed”. But I am afraid that there would be the same knee-jerk reaction to the use of the word “wrong”. How do you convey, clearly and without ambiguity, that something is wrong without using the word ‘wrong’?

It’s true that “disorder” has now come to primarily mean an illness. And that’s why official documents are still published in Latin since the meaning doesn’t change. 😃
I agree that ‘wrongly ordered’ may be closer in the English language - ‘directed’ does not have to imply “activeness”, but I see your point. And of course it was not a mistranslation at the time, but that is why I described it as a de facto mistranslation - it causes widespread confusion among today’s readers.

As to knee jerk reactions, I think ‘disordered’ (especially when people then mistakenly go from there to ‘disorder’) is more prone to causing them than the presence of ‘wrongly’ would be. That said, ‘wrongly’ also carries connotations that are not present in ‘inordinatus’, so my attempt at a better translation has deficiencies too. Perhaps ‘incorrectly ordered’ would be better - it is as neutral as it gets, while still conveying the contents of the Latin word rather accurately.

But lastly, my point is not to avoid any and all knee jerk reactions - that is impossible. Some people will always knee jerk, be they conserative, liberal, straight, gay, Catholic, non-Catholic or anything else. However, we should avoid knee jerk reactions caused by misunderstandings. The idea that Catholicism sees homosexuality as a mental disorder is such a misunderstanding, common amongst liberals and conservatives alike. It creates unnecessary controversy.

Catholic teaching about homosexual acts should be presented as neutrally as possible - just the teaching, in its “purest” sense, minimally colored by culture or language. I have (upon enquiry - I truly do not see it as my business to “admonish” people, especially when they’re not even Catholic) explained Catholic teaching on sexuality this way to people, gay as well as straight, just quoting exactly what is contained in the Catechism, together with an explanation of the basics of teleology, since our teaching on sexual morality truly does not make sense without it. I have yet to receive a knee jerk reaction. On the contrary, I’ve been told that this was less harsh than they expected, and that it makes sense in the framework of teleology as presented. They may not agree with the teleological premises, but they do understand them. Additionally, some have been positively surprised as well as slightly perplexed that they didn’t receive an “it’s in the Bible, thus it is so” reply.

I’m trailing off here, but to conclude, I do not think Catholic teaching by necessity has to produce knee jerk reactions in most people. Of course, a heavily ideologized person will knee jerk to anything that does not fit their conceptions. But most people are not like that - gay or not.

Lastly, I agree about the Latin. Of course documents such as the Catechism have to be translated, but this is one of many reasons I am skeptical to the vernacular liturgical experiment of the modern Latin Church. If anything, we should follow the example of the Eastern rites, which have always been translated to more archaic versions of the vernacular, so as to avoid constantly fleeting meanings and connotations. Or, perhaps we don’t even have to look as far as to the East, but simply to the Anglican Use.

But now I’m trailing off, so it’s time for bed 🙂
 
Originally Posted by Eric Hyom
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Any solution should hang and depend on the greatest commandments.

How do we love God with all our hearts souls mind and strength?
How do we love homosexuals as we love ourselves?
How do we love divorced and remarried couples as we love ourselves?
How do we love Anglicans, Muslims atheists etc, as we love ourselves?

We are commanded to love, we are not commanded to judge, so any solution must hang on the greatest commandments, as does all the law of God.

Blessings

Eric
It’s kind of complicated… Christ could read people; He knew whom to invite, no? And He never shrank from telling them to sin no more. But at the same time, they had encountered God!

And then Christ also told His apostles to shake the dust from their sandals of the towns which would not listen. And St Matthew writes, and he who will not hear he Church, let him be as a heathen or a publican (St Matthew 18:17).

The greatest commandments are like a coat hook, all the laws of God are like a coat that is hanging on the hook, the coat depends on the hook to stop it falling on the floor.

When Christ spent his time on Earth, he would have lived by the greatest commandments, but how did he love all his neighbours as he loved himself? The soldiers who crowned him with thorns and those who nailed him to the cross, we know he prayed on the cross, forgive them Father for they know not what they do.

It seems that nothing should stand in the way of Jesus loving all his neighbours as he loves himself.

What must we do, so that nothing stands in the way of us loving all our neighbours as we love ourselves?
 
The point still stands - an act cannot be sodomy between a gay couple but not sodomy between a married couple. It may be sinful through being a near occasion of sin, but it cannot be sodomy in one instance and not sodomy in another. The term ‘sodomy’ describes an act, not a circumstance.

Additionally, there have always been, and still are, chaste homosexual couplings - where the couple is romantically, but non-sexually and chastely, involved. To describe such couplings as “sodomitical” by their nature is blatantly wrong.

However, while this has been entertaining, I don’t really like using the word ‘sodomy’ all the time, so I’ll withdraw I think. I hope I’ve got my point across, which is basically that using the word ‘sodomy’ or (worse, times and times worse) ‘sodomite’ only about gay sexual acts and actively gay people, is not only offensive and inflammatory, but also inaccurate. The word can be used to describe most married couples too.
You are quite right and so good to bring this to our attention. Language is so often and so effectively used to belittle. Particularly the use of the word “sodomite” has been so narrowly and unfairly focused on homosexuals that it’s true meaning seems almost completely lost and disregarded in favor of disparaging gay people in our society. Some not only limit the word to gay men specifically, but seem to encourage us to view gay men as defined by one particular sex act that is not even common to all gay men, much less all homosexual people.
 
The greatest commandments are like a coat hook, all the laws of God are like a coat that is hanging on the hook, the coat depends on the hook to stop it falling on the floor.

When Christ spent his time on Earth, he would have lived by the greatest commandments, but how did he love all his neighbours as he loved himself? The soldiers who crowned him with thorns and those who nailed him to the cross, we know he prayed on the cross, forgive them Father for they know not what they do.
Are you saying that gays do not understand the sinfulness of homosexual behavior? The Church has spoken loudly and clearly about this. You speak of Biblical love as though it is an emotion; a sentimentality, which it is not. It is an act of the will to love and sometimes requires a strong resolve in order to love enough that you would desire the very best for someone.
It seems that nothing should stand in the way of Jesus loving all his neighbours as he loves himself.
What must we do, so that nothing stands in the way of us loving all our neighbours as we love ourselves?
So, regarding the subject of this thread, maybe you can tell us how we are to welcome gays. No one else has been able to answer this question. Where is our deficiency?
 
Any solution should hang and depend on the greatest commandments.

How do we love God with all our hearts souls mind and strength?
How do we love homosexuals as we love ourselves?
How do we love divorced and remarried couples as we love ourselves?
How do we love Anglicans, Muslims atheists etc, as we love ourselves?

We are commanded to love, we are not commanded to judge, so any solution must hang on the greatest commandments, as does all the law of God.

Blessings

Eric
You are correct, but it is the very fact that we love everyone that we call them to live lives in accordance with Christ.

For the homosexual, it is a call to live a chaste life. Otherwise, they are damaging their souls, and it would not be an act of love if we simply stood by and did nothing.

For the divorced and remarried, it is out of love from them that the Church prohibits the reception of Holy Communion, for reception outside of a State of Grace does damage to their souls.

For Muslims, Atheiests ect, it is out of love for them that we desire that they come into a relationship with Christ and His Church and begin to benefit of the Grace inherint to the Sacraments.

So by definition then, any solution would have to involve doing all we can to call homosexuals to live chaste lives, discouraging the divoriced and remarried to either refrain from Holy Communion or to live as brother and sister, and to bring our separated brother and sisters into the Catholic Church. Anything else is not really love

As to ‘not judging’, we do not judge people, but actions. Actions are not people, and people are not actions. Therefore, when we judge an action, by defition, we are juding no one.
 
As to ‘not judging’, we do not judge people, but actions. Actions are not people, and people are not actions. Therefore, when we judge an action, by defition, we are juding no one.
How can we judge actions, when two or three witnesses are required?
You are correct, but it is the very fact that we love everyone that we call them to live lives in accordance with Christ.
For the homosexual, it is a call to live a chaste life. Otherwise, they are damaging their souls, and it would not be an act of love if we simply stood by and did nothing.
For the divorced and remarried, it is out of love from them that the Church prohibits the reception of Holy Communion, for reception outside of a State of Grace does damage to their souls.
For Muslims, Atheiests ect, it is out of love for them that we desire that they come into a relationship with Christ and His Church and begin to benefit of the Grace inherint to the Sacraments.
So by definition then, any solution would have to involve doing all we can to call homosexuals to live chaste lives, discouraging the divoriced and remarried to either refrain from Holy Communion or to live as brother and sister, and to bring our separated brother and sisters into the Catholic Church. Anything else is not really love
It might be easier to make judgements on sins we do not commit ourselves. If we continue to sin in any other way, we are more in a position to judge our own actions, and strive to change ourselves; rather than trying to change the actions of others,

We need to be without sin to cast the first stone.
 
How can we judge actions, when two or three witnesses are required?
That, again, is for judging a person, not an action, If someone burns a cross on the lawn of a black family, the perpetrator does not need to be seen to declare that the ACTION iitself s morally wrong.

Likewise if someone leaves a package of food at the door of a struggling neighbor, the person does not need to be see for the ACTION to be judged morally good.

Actions can easily be judged, persons, not so.
It might be easier to make judgements on sins we do not commit ourselves. If we continue to sin in any other way, we are more in a position to judge our own actions, and strive to change ourselves; rather than trying to change the actions of others,
We need to be without sin to cast the first stone.
We are all called to help each other through their sins. That is the advantage of being a Body of Believers, You are quite correct that many times, we do not see our own sins, or not even consider them sins at all. Which is precisely WHY we need each other, to help us over come them and to reject those sins. And a Church to direct us as to what is sinful and what is not.

And that is not a casting of stones, just helping each other live according to Christ and His Church. That is hardly a stone, now is it?
 
How can we judge actions, when two or three witnesses are required?
Two or three withesses to the crime of adultery were needed before someone was stoned–the witnesses were needed for a *legal *judgement which resulted in the death of the guilty party.

There is more than one kind of judgement. The Church says certain acts are sinful; this is completely separate from legality, as we can see in many nations which allow abortion.

We Christians can say, this is such-and-such an action–the Church says it is a sin. We’re not nominalists.
It might be easier to make judgements on sins we do not commit ourselves. If we continue to sin in any other way, we are more in a position to judge our own actions, and strive to change ourselves; rather than trying to change the actions of others,
It is one of the seven Acts of Spiritual Mercy to instruct the ignorant; it is another to adminish the sinner. Nowhere does it say that we must be free of sin before we can carry out an act of kindness. Maybe in pointing out another’s sin and offering to pray for that person’s struggle, we find another who will pray for us in ours.
We need to be without sin to cast the first stone.
And if we were talking about stoning people then you might have a point. However, pointing out that certain acts are objectively sinful is not casting stones.

However, this idea of yours is prevalent in ur society. It stems from the so-called Enlightenment’s idea that social restrictions on people’s acts are evil. For anyone to “shame” someone by pointing out that an act is sinful is a horrendous social faux pas in our society, and this idea clashes with God’s idea that clarity in what is sinful, instruction and admonition in areas of sin are all *good *things.

So as long as some people have the idea that saying certain actions are sinful, we will have the problem of people telling us that we are not being welcoming to sinners. I have seen no evidence that this is not the bottom line on this issue.
 
St Francis;
However, this idea of yours is prevalent in ur society. It stems from the so-called Enlightenment’s idea that social restrictions on people’s acts are evil. For anyone to “shame” someone by pointing out that an act is sinful is a horrendous social faux pas in our society, and this idea clashes with God’s idea that clarity in what is sinful, instruction and admonition in areas of sin are all *good *things.
We have the readings and homily at mass, we confess and ask for mercy at mass, we are all reminded of our sins at mass and we struggle with them, do we need other people to judge us?

Sadly, I know people who have walked away from the church because one or two people were judging them. The judgements may well have been true, but if they caused the person to walk away from the church, they might not have been the best course of action.
 
Sadly, I know people who have walked away from the church because one or two people were judging them. The judgements may well have been true, but if they caused the person to walk away from the church, they might not have been the best course of action.
You are correct, judging PEOPLE is wrong. But action, can (and should) be judged, both positively (so that we can laud the person) and negatively (so that the person may receive correction)

Unfortunately, FAR too many people define themselves by their actions, and thus perceive a correction of a wrong act as a judgment on their person.

The Church has long defined doing to be an Act of Mercy, it is showing Love to the person in the model of Christ

Here are the Spiritual Works of Mercy

To instruct the ignorant ;
• To counsel the doubtful ;
• To admonish sinners ;
• To bear wrongs patiently;
• To forgive offences willingly;
• To comfort the afflicted;
• To pray for the living and the dead.

Eric, if there was an alcoholic, or a person with a drug addiction, would you not, in love, ask them to seek help in overcoming their fault? You would, of course, ‘judge’ that shooting up with heroin is a bad thing, but your love for the person would compel you to help them over come it. It would not be sufficient for any Christian to simply claim that 'well they hear the reading and homily, and they ask for forgiveness at Mass, therefore I am forbidden from helping"

As you well know, a loving Christian will seek to help them and overcome their burden.

They exact same is true for sins that,while not affecting the body as mush as drug addiction, affect the soul more. Damage to the soul, in the eyes of God, is FAR more serious in the eyes of God, and in our eyes too. So we are equally, if not more, called to help others overcome damage to their souls
 
We have the readings and homily at mass, we confess and ask for mercy at mass, we are all reminded of our sins at mass and we struggle with them, do we need other people to judge us?

Sadly, I know people who have walked away from the church because one or two people were judging them. The judgements may well have been true, but if they caused the person to walk away from the church, they might not have been the best course of action.
There are different ways of judging people. People can judge in a prideful way, like the Pharisee (Thank God I’m not like *that *man.) or in a kind way, where one is moved to do what one can for the person. The *latter *kind is what I am talking about.

The problem is that the Church must kindly remind people of sin, and provide help for those struggling with sin, which is impossible without acknowledging what is sinful!

But it is very hard to help those who think that *any *mention of the sinfulness of the sins *they *commit is wrong and meanly judgemental.

So I think there that on each side of the issue, there are people with problems.
 
To instruct the ignorant ;
Sadly, most of us are not ignorant about our faults, but we struggle to change them.
Eric, if there was an alcoholic, or a person with a drug addiction, would you not, in love, ask them to seek help in overcoming their fault?
My dad died an alcoholic, sadly he would not listen to anyone. Another example is smoking, in the UK, there are horrible graphic images on the cigarette packets; warning people against smoking, it goes without saying that smokers ignore this.

We are all good at giving advice to others, but most of us do not like taking advice from those who know better.
You would, of course, ‘judge’ that shooting up with heroin is a bad thing, but your love for the person would compel you to help them over come it.
If they asked for help, then yes I would try and encourage and help them, but the bottom line is they have to be willing to change themselves
They exact same is true for sins that,while not affecting the body as mush as drug addiction, affect the soul more. Damage to the soul, in the eyes of God, is FAR more serious in the eyes of God, and in our eyes too. So we are equally, if not more, called to help others overcome damage to their souls
I agree that damage to the soul is more serious than drug addiction, but change has to come from within and with prayer.

Blessings

Eric
 
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