Cardinal Pell appeals abuse convictions to Australian High Court

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Good. This case will rival the Lindy Chamberlain case in the miscarriage of justice…in time.
 
OurLadyofSorrows said:
There is no guarantee the High Court will accept the grounds for appeal.
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From what I read, they typically do not. However, in this case the appeals court was not unanimous, and this greatly increases the odds that they will accept a given case. Especially when the dissenting opinion was so strong.

Also, the they know that the first trial resulted in a hung jury, and that may affect their decision.
Overall, if reports of the first trial are accurate, we have a total of 14 jurors who believed his guilt and 10 jurors who disagreed. We have 2 appellate judges who believed his guilt and one who, reading between the lines, actually thought he was innocent.
I bet they take the appeal. I am not optimistic that the appeal will change anything, as I cannot help but be cynical and think a motivation for taking the appeal will simply be to lend credence to the Australian criminal justice system.

Full disclosure: I do not believe Cardinal Pell is guilty at all.
 
With Australia becoming more and more a secular country I think Cardinal Pell had two things going against him from the start…1…he is a Catholic…2…he is a Cardinal
 
The headline of this thread is a little misleading. Pell is seeking leave to appeal his conviction to the High Court.

This link is a nice summary on what will be considered if the High Court takes the Appeal, and reasons why the High Court would take the Appeal.
The Australian Criminal Justice System is like any other, it has its good and bad points. The fact Pell is Catholic or Jewish or Anglican is really beside the point in that system.


My opinion on his guilt or innocence is personal. It will stay that way.
I will say the entire thing is a catch 22. We want to move to a culture where victims are listened to and heard. Paedophiles were enabled for decades because victims were not believed. That was the culture. The police were part of that culture.
Here is an example of a victim listened to and heard. Now in certain sectors he is being disbelieved.
Then there is the issue of conviction on evidence or not. It sets a cautious precedence.
Louise Milligan will be releasing her book after all the legal avenues are extinguished. We are looking at some time in 2020 before that happens.

The impacts of all this , not just Pell’s case, is ongoing. In the last couple of weeks one man who never came forward as a victim , or mentioned anything to anyone suicided. He had spent a weekend with a relative who was in town on matters related to his own case, one that has a convicted and professed clergy member serving time for his crimes.
 
I have read the full judgment and followed this case closely. The defense’s 13 obstacles preventing the occurrence of the offending acts is complete rubbish. Firstly, it is a fact that when a person suffers any tragedy, all the stars and planets align for the tragedy to occur. Secondly, just because someone follows a particular routine everyday, it does not mean that the probability of them deviating from the routine each time is low. Humans are not computers/robots programmed everyday to do things exactly the same way each time. Sometimes things are done differently no matter how rigid our routines might me. It is like saying that on September 11 all employees in the World Trade Centre died as the probability of them dying that day was high because their “routine” was such that they had to attend the office everyday. Fortunately, some employees did survive as they were not in the building that day. In this criminal case, for example, it was open to the jury to rightly assume that after a long mass, lasting at least 1 hour and half, George Pell could have left shortly after mass to use the rest rooms. NONE of the witnesses said that they assisted Pell to undress when he needed to use the restrooms. The 2 judges of the Supreme Court said that they had tried the archbishop’s robe and noted that it was not difficult to set the robes aside (as the victim described) to perform the offending acts. So we know that George Pell did not require assistance to undress to use the toilet. The priest sacristy (where the abuse took place) was on the way to the rest rooms. This is shown in the lay out of the cathedral. It is very possible and indeed, realistic for Pell to use the restrooms after a long mass. In fact I would go as far to say that it is unlikely that after EVERY single mass, George Pell would not have needed to use the rest rooms. Can you imagine spending an hour and a half saying a mass and then, spending another 20 minutes greeting parishioners at the front steps for another 20 minutes, nearly 2 hours without EVER needing to use the rest rooms? Furthermore, the fact that witnesses did not notice the boys leaving the procession is not conclusive evidence that the abuse did not take place. Someone might have noticed them leaving the procession, but who is going to remember this after 22 years? It is a very high and unrealistic expectation of witnesses. Being young boys, it is reasonable to assume they would have done their very best to leave the procession unnoticed by their supervisors in particular. The defense offered no logical explanation as to why the victim who testified would invent such a story after the funeral of the other choir boy who sadly died of heroin overdose (an addiction which coincidentally commenced after the alleged abuse took place). The case is a prime example of how a human tragedy can occur.
 
I doubt it very much. Lindy Chamberlain case there was no victim to testify. In George Pell’s case there is a victim who spoke of his abuse by George Pell. This is a major difference. You cannot compare the 2 cases. Victim in Pell’s case had no motive to lie. He has not claimed compensation from George Pell. He disclosed the abuse soon after the death of the other choirboy who was also abused by Pell. He claimed that his friend’s death was the straw that broke the camel’s back and made him speak out about the abuse. After considering the victim’s motive, reason to disclose the abuse and reading the judgment of the Supreme Court one cannot but help believe the victim and question Pell’s denials of the abuse.
 
jenny63 said:
it is a fact that when a person suffers any tragedy, all the stars and planets align for the tragedy to occur.
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It is? I’m not sure whether you are saying that you believe that there is an astrological element to the crimes of which Cardinal Pell has been convicted or whether you are being satirical. Astrology cannot be adduced in court.
 
My favorite kind of posters, the “It is a fact” followed by something that is emphatically NOT a fact.
 
It’s the Swiss cheese model of plane crashes. Not astrology, but a tragic alignment of factors. The « holes in the cheese » align. A series of external factors that alone aren’t sufficient to cause the tragedy but together pretty much guarantee it.
 
I see. So it’s an idiom rather than an expression of belief in astrology. Is it a common idiom in English? In French? I assume you are a native French-speaker. Maybe it’s an Australian phrase? I’ve never heard it in British English.
 
Londoner said:
I see. So it’s an idiom rather than an expression of belief in astrology. Is it a common idiom in English? In French? I assume you are a native French-speaker. Maybe it’s an Australian phrase? I’ve never heard it in British English.
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In French we say “les planètes s’alignent” or “les astres s’alignent” to mean circumstances lined up to result in this or that result. In English, we similarly use “the stars are aligned”. It is indeed an idiom in both languages, to indicate a rare coincidence of circumstances.

It has nothing to do with astrology, it’s simply a term borrowed from that realm. I don’t believe in astrology but certainly have use the terms in the past, in both languages.
 
So in Spanish, same meaning “ se alinean / alinearon los planetas” .
 
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Yes, when you phrase it like that the idiom does sound familiar to me. The phrase “the stars are/were aligned” to my mind is used to predict or, more commonly, explain how a particular occurrence will be able to take place, or was able to take place, precisely because of the coincidence of a number of factors, especially where the occurrence is considered indicative of especially good or bad fortune or would otherwise be inexplicable. What confused me was the formal wording: “it is a fact that when a person suffers any tragedy, all the stars and planets align for the tragedy to occur.” I’d think of it as more of a colloquial expression.
 
Being Australian I can tell you its common amongst the new age set. Also common amongst sports commentators.
Catholics here are of two minds, Pell is guilty, Pell is not guilty. Nothing about stars and planets aligning there, just another sad chapter in our horrific Child sex abuse issue. Just today another former Priest was jailed for only 14 months for abuse of boys. He is now in his 70s. There is a policeman here who has written a book about this issue. He has made a pretty scary claim in his book about one of our Priests being shipped off to the states for re education and then that Priest working in the states and abusing children for several decades there.

It sounds from Jenny’s post that she believes Pell guilty. She is correct in saying it is entirely possible that it could have happened. Heroin overdoses in Melbourne happen with or without addiction and really should not be conflated with any case or not. That is just pulling at the heart strings.

Reading the full judgement does not equate to reading all the Testimony or the goings on in the court room.
I also take offence at equating this with September 11. For the record.
 
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How does this remotely equate with the American September 11 tragedy? Nothing …is some muck raking media fantasy writer implying it is?
 
Penitent60 said:
How does this remotely equate with the American September 11 tragedy? Nothing …is some muck raking media fantasy writer implying it is?
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It is a response to the comment on this thread of jenny63
 
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