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pianistclare
Guest
I say wait until there is actual news, and not speculation.
See what the commission finally decides.
See what the commission finally decides.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
That’s not what I was questioning at all.
Sadly, we live in a world where if you have past scandal or allegations, true or not, you should not really have a high ranking job in the Church. Was the pope familiar with his history or did all of this come as a surprise?
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Lion_IRC
Guest
You mean wait to see what the court case decides ?
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Lion_IRC
Guest
The latest news I read suggests that the allegations made by his accusers are going to be substantially “watered down” by the time they are eventually presented in court.
Reason?
Possibly because very highly qualified defense lawyers have started putting the original claims under a huge magnifying glass. And there’s a big difference between what you can get away saying with insofar as sensational claims (or insinuations) in the media and what you can get away with in a court of law.
Reason?
Possibly because very highly qualified defense lawyers have started putting the original claims under a huge magnifying glass. And there’s a big difference between what you can get away saying with insofar as sensational claims (or insinuations) in the media and what you can get away with in a court of law.
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JimG
Guest
An interesting piece on two cardinals: Cardinal Barbarin and Cardinal Pell.
Media vs the Church: from Cardinal Barbarin to Cardinal Pell
It seems the media were all over the charges against Cardinal Barbarin; now that he has been exonerated, there is no interest in that coverage.
I will be surprised if Cardinal Pell can even get a fair hearing in the media. What can be said of allegations about something 40 years ago? Who can prove or disprove it?
Media vs the Church: from Cardinal Barbarin to Cardinal Pell
It seems the media were all over the charges against Cardinal Barbarin; now that he has been exonerated, there is no interest in that coverage.
I will be surprised if Cardinal Pell can even get a fair hearing in the media. What can be said of allegations about something 40 years ago? Who can prove or disprove it?
Tis_Bearself
Patron
This is a big reason why many crimes, including sexual abuse crimes, have statutes of limitations. It keeps people from bringing cases that are so old they can’t be reliably prosecuted or defended, and protects people from suffering the reputation damage of an allegation that can’t be resolved. Unfortunately, these days the media paint statutes of limitations as a bad thing because there is a mindset that every victim has perfect recall and is telling a 100 percent accurate story. In reality, some victims may have false memories and a few may even fabricate.
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JimG
Guest
I would say that more than a few will fabricate if there is a monetary settlement in view. Also, prosecutors want convictions, even unjust convictions. Convictions are good for their prosecutorial reputations. There was a spate of alleged child abuse cases in the 1980’s where a lot of people were convicted and sentenced for crimes which did not happen.
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Rau
Guest
Subseqently released/exhonerated?
Tis_Bearself
Patron
In some cases they were released or exonerated, in some the charges were just dropped. This Wiki article has a summary of some of the cases.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day-care_sex-abuse_hysteria
Tis_Bearself
Patron
There was also the “Michelle Remembers” book where a woman claimed that she was abused multiple times in Satanic rituals as a child and that the Blessed Mother appeared to her. The book was a bestseller and scared heck out of me when I read it in the 80s. It’s since been shown to be a likely hoax due to a lot of factual inaccuracies or impossibilities in the story and suggestions that this woman planned the whole thing with her psychiatrist, whom she ended up leaving her husband for.
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CeelosDeznos
Guest
People are just in denial. This is not the “media” or people making up things. Note this article from Catholic News Service dated July 20, 2017, entitled “Investigation into Regensburg choir finds more than 500 boys were abused” which stated, in part
More than 500 boys suffered abuse at the hands of dozens of teachers and priests at the school that trains the prestigious boys choir of the Regensburg Cathedral in Germany, said an independent investigator.
Former students of the Domspatzen choir reported that the physical, emotional and even sexual abuse at the school made life there like “a prison, hell and a concentration camp,” said Ulrich Weber, the lawyer leading the investigation of claims of abuse at the choir and two associated boarding schools.
A “culture of silence” among church leaders and members allowed such abuse to continue for decades, Weber said as he presented the final report on his findings during a news conference in Regensburg July 18.
The investigation, commissioned by the Diocese of Regensburg, found that at least 547 former members of the Regensburg Domspatzen boys choir in Germany were subjected to some form of abuse, according to Vatican Radio. Of those victims, 67 students were victims of sexual violence, the radio said…
The 440-page report, which spanned the years between 1945 and the early 1990s, found highly plausible accusations against 49 members of the church of inflicting the abuse, with nine of them accused of being sexual abusive…
In the report, Weber sharply criticized Cardinal Gerhard Muller, who was bishop of Regensburg from 2002 until 2012, when Pope Benedict appointed him to head the Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
Cardinal Pell is no different from then-Bishop Muller who, according to the CNS report, did not listen to the orignal claims of abuse. Not all Catholic clergy are guilty, wicked men, but some are, some who have had great power. We must have a wait and see attitude.
But some here will never, even with the greatest evidence, ever believe the truth about what is happening in the Church. They blame the victims. They claim the media is out to get the Church. They say the clergy who have been found guilty are the victims. You scandalize others by not standing on the side of justice.
Scripture says: “If anyone causes one of the little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for you that you tied a millstone around your neck and then drown yourself in the depths of the sea.” (Matthew 18:6) Do you know how many people have left Catholicism because of your attitudes? Instead of siding with the vicitims, you act as if it is the clergy who have done no wrong! How horrible! Those who have not sided with the truth might as well do as Jesus has said because they have no hope for the future, that is if they still believe in Jesus.
And remember how everyone was saying that it was homosexual priests that were the cause of all this? Well, since it was brought up, haven’t we learned from that documentary on Netflix (and the Archdiocese of Baltimore’s own response to these events) that pedophile priests also abuse girls? So the claim that it is a problem with homosexual priests is a false one. As the years unfold, unfortunately we will hear more claims of how girls were abused by clergy and their cries ignored. This is not over by any means.
And if Pell is so innocent, why did the Pope tell Pell he will not be returning to his post at the Vatican. Innocence would return. Scandal does not. Being merely accused is no reason not forbid a person return to their post. Something else has happened.
Let’s let history run its course. Stop judging the media. I don’t know if Pell is guilty, but unfotunately the Church does not have a good record up to now. And the way may are acting here…well, I do not care to be here any longer or stand with such a Church.
I cannot believe in a Church or a Christ who would call children to him only to have his shepherd to this to his children. I don’t believe that “Suffer the little children” means to do this to them and then claim that their memories are faulty when they have the courage to speak up years later.
The news article I referenced is here: catholicnews.com/services/englishnews/2017/investigation-into-regensburg-choir-finds-more-than-500-boys-were-abused.cfm
But I guess to some of you even the Church’s own media is against itself.
“If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand.”–Mark 3:25.
More than 500 boys suffered abuse at the hands of dozens of teachers and priests at the school that trains the prestigious boys choir of the Regensburg Cathedral in Germany, said an independent investigator.
Former students of the Domspatzen choir reported that the physical, emotional and even sexual abuse at the school made life there like “a prison, hell and a concentration camp,” said Ulrich Weber, the lawyer leading the investigation of claims of abuse at the choir and two associated boarding schools.
A “culture of silence” among church leaders and members allowed such abuse to continue for decades, Weber said as he presented the final report on his findings during a news conference in Regensburg July 18.
The investigation, commissioned by the Diocese of Regensburg, found that at least 547 former members of the Regensburg Domspatzen boys choir in Germany were subjected to some form of abuse, according to Vatican Radio. Of those victims, 67 students were victims of sexual violence, the radio said…
The 440-page report, which spanned the years between 1945 and the early 1990s, found highly plausible accusations against 49 members of the church of inflicting the abuse, with nine of them accused of being sexual abusive…
In the report, Weber sharply criticized Cardinal Gerhard Muller, who was bishop of Regensburg from 2002 until 2012, when Pope Benedict appointed him to head the Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
Cardinal Pell is no different from then-Bishop Muller who, according to the CNS report, did not listen to the orignal claims of abuse. Not all Catholic clergy are guilty, wicked men, but some are, some who have had great power. We must have a wait and see attitude.
But some here will never, even with the greatest evidence, ever believe the truth about what is happening in the Church. They blame the victims. They claim the media is out to get the Church. They say the clergy who have been found guilty are the victims. You scandalize others by not standing on the side of justice.
Scripture says: “If anyone causes one of the little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for you that you tied a millstone around your neck and then drown yourself in the depths of the sea.” (Matthew 18:6) Do you know how many people have left Catholicism because of your attitudes? Instead of siding with the vicitims, you act as if it is the clergy who have done no wrong! How horrible! Those who have not sided with the truth might as well do as Jesus has said because they have no hope for the future, that is if they still believe in Jesus.
And remember how everyone was saying that it was homosexual priests that were the cause of all this? Well, since it was brought up, haven’t we learned from that documentary on Netflix (and the Archdiocese of Baltimore’s own response to these events) that pedophile priests also abuse girls? So the claim that it is a problem with homosexual priests is a false one. As the years unfold, unfortunately we will hear more claims of how girls were abused by clergy and their cries ignored. This is not over by any means.
And if Pell is so innocent, why did the Pope tell Pell he will not be returning to his post at the Vatican. Innocence would return. Scandal does not. Being merely accused is no reason not forbid a person return to their post. Something else has happened.
Let’s let history run its course. Stop judging the media. I don’t know if Pell is guilty, but unfotunately the Church does not have a good record up to now. And the way may are acting here…well, I do not care to be here any longer or stand with such a Church.
I cannot believe in a Church or a Christ who would call children to him only to have his shepherd to this to his children. I don’t believe that “Suffer the little children” means to do this to them and then claim that their memories are faulty when they have the courage to speak up years later.
The news article I referenced is here: catholicnews.com/services/englishnews/2017/investigation-into-regensburg-choir-finds-more-than-500-boys-were-abused.cfm
But I guess to some of you even the Church’s own media is against itself.
“If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand.”–Mark 3:25.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
I’m not sure how a discussion of stat of lims turned into a discussion of a person’s guilt but since I’m not involved in reviewing actual evidence, I’m not taking a position one way or other on guilt or innocence. Just pointing out that there are genuine issues with very old accusations from a legal standpoint. YMMV
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Lion_IRC
Guest
No they aren’t.
People have opinions - just like you.
I’m surprised you have no comment about the Church investigating itself.
Any accusation is “plausible” - especially when it is so old that nobody can verify or nulify the claim. 1945?
Nine people since 1945 (not all of them clergy) accused of “plausible” allegations.
You are absolutely wrong.
Cardinal Pell was one of the earliest and most pro-active Church leaders in Australia in setting up investigative and remedial authorities to act on behalf of actual and alleged victims.
Are you talking to me?
If so, that’s a very uncharitible accusation.
This is a very serious insinuation against the Pope and George Pell.
You quoted a lot of scripture in your post.
Have you read this?
"I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.'
J
JimG
Guest
I have no doubt that there have been cases of child abuse by priests who were correctly found guilty, convicted, and sentenced. I’m also sure that there are a few who were innocently caught up in prosecutorial zeal and public hysteria, as well as chancery interest in simply making settlement regardless of the facts.
I am equally aware that prosecution and conviction is not a guarantee of guilt. In the 1980’s cases, the cases were almost wholly fabricated. Indeed, had the juries had access to the full transcripts of interrogations of children, the charges would have been thrown out. My point is that from a prosecutor’s viewpoint, guilt or innocence is not the overriding issue. Obtaining a conviction by whatever means possible is the overriding issue.
And I do doubt the ability of a court system to arrive at the truth of allegations which are decades old, especially if the accusers have only recently made a claim.
A discussion of the problems of false prosecution can be found here.
I am equally aware that prosecution and conviction is not a guarantee of guilt. In the 1980’s cases, the cases were almost wholly fabricated. Indeed, had the juries had access to the full transcripts of interrogations of children, the charges would have been thrown out. My point is that from a prosecutor’s viewpoint, guilt or innocence is not the overriding issue. Obtaining a conviction by whatever means possible is the overriding issue.
And I do doubt the ability of a court system to arrive at the truth of allegations which are decades old, especially if the accusers have only recently made a claim.
A discussion of the problems of false prosecution can be found here.
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