Cardinal Ratzinger v. Catholic Encyclopedia: Did humanity owe a debt?

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Not addressed to me, but if you don’t mind…

Ok…but why would Jesus need to save us from any of that if God already did beforehand?

I think it could mean that God did all beforehand as God never changes, but the people of that time may have failed to see God as Jesus taught him to be. Like the sacrifices in the temple were done to take away the sin of the person, but through Jesus all sin is taken away, no more animal sacrifice is needed, we know more now about God.
The people saw others in a, it’s them and us sort of way I think, unlike a Christian, who should hopefully see all people as Gods children, because we follow the teaching of love one another.

Just my :twocents:😃
That’s the concern: If God took away sins before/apart from Jesus, what does Jesus do? There is no way this can be reconciled with Catholic teaching.

But I’m under the impression this is a matter of semantics.
 
God bless the results and God bless Grannymh!

Is Adam human, and in a more full way than the earthly examples we see here? Yes.

Are we now to be made co-heirs, if we persevere to our end, with the Lord and a son of God that Adam in Eden was not? Yes.

There is an explanation of Jesus relieving our lack in holiness to approach the divine in the telling of our debts. Yet, He does more, he does not just restore us to Eden, but has turned much evil to an infinite good. God has Christ refashioning us to be adopted sons and daughters of the Father and where Christ is our first born Brother.

Thus there is no little tit for tat accounting just to restore us to the graces Adam had in Eden, but an overflowing and boundless generosity that boggles the mind and can only be explained by His Love in that we become brothers with Christ. Where Adam put us in Grand Canyon size cliffs falling down, Christ has lifted us beyond the stars.

God doesn’t just repair the damage done, He remakes the whole existence from a tattered universe of decay and rot to a New Heaven and a New Earth far above any happy creature that a non-sinning Adam may have been.
 
That’s the concern: If God took away sins before/apart from Jesus, what does Jesus do? There is no way this can be reconciled with Catholic teaching.

But I’m under the impression this is a matter of semantics.
Yes you could be right.

If God took away sins before/apart from Jesus, what does Jesus do?

My attempt at an answer to that would be Jesus showed us what we need to do. That it is self sacrifice that takes away sin through Jesus.
For me, I’m trying to progress in my understanding about Christ, and it has become very deep, rather than just saying Jesus died on a cross and through that and baptism we are cleansed from original sin and personal sins and all we need do is confess and all will be well, its a very simple way to understand it.

I don’t know enough about the sacrifice of animals as a way of cleansing people from sin. But as this was the way the jewish faith believed was correct to help people be freed from their sin then I can not question it. But I see Jesus’ teaching completely differently as we all do, we do not believe sacrificing a animal will take away our sin, we know from Jesus’ teaching that it is us that needs to self sacrifice in order to become a new person.
 
Yes you could be right.

If God took away sins before/apart from Jesus, what does Jesus do?

My attempt at an answer to that would be Jesus showed us what we need to do. That it is self sacrifice that takes away sin through Jesus.
For me, I’m trying to progress in my understanding about Christ, and it has become very deep, rather than just saying Jesus died on a cross and through that and baptism we are cleansed from original sin and personal sins and all we need do is confess and all will be well, its a very simple way to understand it.

I don’t know enough about the sacrifice of animals as a way of cleansing people from sin. But as this was the way the jewish faith believed was correct to help people be freed from their sin then I can not question it. But I see Jesus’ teaching completely differently as we all do, we do not believe sacrificing a animal will take away our sin, we know from Jesus’ teaching that it is us that needs to self sacrifice in order to become a new person.
Animal sacrifice prefigures the sacrifice of Christ, but there is no inherent value to the animal sacrifices.

OTOH, it is Christ who takes away our sins. “Behold the Lamb of God…” mobile.vatican.va/content/francescomobile/en/homilies/2014/documents/papa-francesco_20140119_omelia-parrocchia-sacro-cuore-gesu.html
w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/angelus/2014/documents/papa-francesco_angelus_20140119.html
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19880727en.html

That’s my point: Jesus gives us salvation–apart from him there is none. It makes no sense for us to speak of salvation and not speak of Christ. That is what also helps us understand how there can be no salvation outside the Church.
 
Animal sacrifice prefigures the sacrifice of Christ, but there is no inherent value to the animal sacrifices.

OTOH, it is Christ who takes away our sins. “Behold the Lamb of God…” mobile.vatican.va/content/francescomobile/en/homilies/2014/documents/papa-francesco_20140119_omelia-parrocchia-sacro-cuore-gesu.html
w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/angelus/2014/documents/papa-francesco_angelus_20140119.html
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19880727en.html

That’s my point: Jesus gives us salvation–apart from him there is none. It makes no sense for us to speak of salvation and not speak of Christ. That is what also helps us understand how there can be no salvation outside the Church.
So for years the jewish prophets got it wrong? Isn’t all that is in the O.T the word of God as in the new? I’m not sure if there was value to animals being sacrificed for mans faults, but the people of that time sure thought so, and they believed it was God’s word.
I know it’s to do with innocent blood etc.

I’m always alittle wary of thinking there is no salvation outside of the church. It’s rather like what was happening in the Jewish faith before Jesus taught that all are children of God, you were only included if you met a set standard, Jesus changed all that.

Must stick to the O.P!

I’ll take a look at those links later, thanks 🙂
 
So for years the jewish prophets got it wrong? Isn’t all that is in the O.T the word of God as in the new? I’m not sure if there was value to animals being sacrificed for mans faults, but the people of that time sure thought so, and they believed it was God’s word.
I know it’s to do with innocent blood etc.

I’m always alittle wary of thinking there is no salvation outside of the church. It’s rather like what was happening in the Jewish faith before Jesus taught that all are children of God, you were only included if you met a set standard, Jesus changed all that.

Must stick to the O.P!

I’ll take a look at those links later, thanks 🙂
They weren’t wrong (but the sacrifices were prefiguring Christ and as such had no intrinsic value.

On “Outside the Church there is no salvation” (from the Catechism):

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

And the Catechism on sacrifice: Sacrifice

2099 It is right to offer sacrifice to God as a sign of adoration and gratitude, supplication and communion: "Every action done so as to cling to God in communion of holiness, and thus achieve blessedness, is a true sacrifice."16

2100 Outward sacrifice, to be genuine, must be the expression of spiritual sacrifice: "The sacrifice acceptable to God is a broken spirit. . . . "17 The prophets of the Old Covenant often denounced sacrifices that were not from the heart or not coupled with love of neighbor.18 Jesus recalls the words of the prophet Hosea: "I desire mercy, and not sacrifice."19 The only perfect sacrifice is the one that Christ offered on the cross as a total offering to the Father’s love and for our salvation.20 By uniting ourselves with his sacrifice we can make our lives a sacrifice to God.
 
The practical side of the necessity of the formal Sacrament of Baptism is clearly stated in paragraphs 1257-1260, *Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition *including the cross-references in the margins.

There are two key sentences which are very important for understanding.

From *CCC *1257
God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but He Himself is not bound by His sacraments.

FromCCC1260
“Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.”
Links to the universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition.

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
 
HI wmw!

Frustratingly for me, this is the second time I am responding to your post here. I responded before, but upon examining the thread it looks like it didn’t end up posted. Oh well, at least I remember what I said!
“Fear” is another fun word. My sense from Ecclesiastes is that it is the fullness of wisdom and long lasting, not as you imply a mere stepping stone to greater enlightenment:
Quote:
20 To fear God is the fulness of wisdom, and fulness is from the fruits thereof.
21 She shall fill all her house with her increase, and the storehouses with her treasures.
22 The fear of the Lord is a crown of wisdom, filling up peace and the fruit of salvation:
The capacity for fear, to me, is a gift from God, and I think it is a vital part of the human psyche. It helps us grow spiritually, and it can certainly lead to the reverence and respect “fear of the Lord”. I also think of the tribal days, when “fear” of the leader (bowing to the God-placed authority) was extremely vital to the survival of the tribe.
If there MUST be a Creditor I can’t reconcile it to God, but rather to the “great accuser”, Satan and as said previously the other Angelic Powers of his.

On forgiveness - I think we can and need to forgive even when we know we could never do whatever has been done to us.
Yes, from what I know St. Augustine saw satan as the creditor, but this view was later rejected. I see some legitimacy to the view, though.

Yes, we need to forgive no matter what. However, there are “levels” of forgiveness, in my experience.
  1. At the most primary level, we simply make the statement to forgive, and discipline ourselves to forget or not hold anything against a person. “He is a sinner, just as I am. I am no longer desiring revenge or something bad to happen to the person.” We no longer put ourselves above the sinner.
  2. At the next level, we understand the motives and actions we condemn in the other, and especially try to figure out what the “gap” was, the lack of awareness, on the part of the person who sinned against us. When we realize that we could have done the same as the other person had, given their awareness, we can come to the point of saying, “He is a sinner, just as I am, and both of us are depraved (evil, something negative). I could have done the same as he did given his awareness of the situation and/or blindness.”
  3. At the next level, the forgiveness is directed toward the “something negative”. We reconcile with the motives, drives, and capacities within ourselves that we have condemned in some way. We forgive our own ignorance and blindness. We find that all of our capacities, drives, motivations, etc., as well as every speck of awareness we have, come from our loving Father. We come to a point of saying, “He is a sinner, just as I am, and both of us are beautiful, loved children of God.”
It is not until I have reached #3 that I have really reconciled completely. Until then, I still associate something negative with the person even though I intend not to. Chances are, I am holding the same thing against myself that I do the other person, so all of this involves some very painful admissions. Do you see what I mean?

I hope this post works this time! Sorry it has been so long, I will send you a message.

Thanks!🙂
 
G’day CrossofChrist!🙂

My post:

In the view that God did not demand a debt be paid, Jesus came to show us that Abba loves us very much, so much that nothing can stop or alter His love, even murdering Him on a cross. Jesus saves us from our fears, not the least of which is death, by His rising. Jesus saves us from enslavement from our resentment and hatred by encouraging us to forgive, as well as guiding us to an “eternal life” described above. This is far, far, from giving either view the full extent of “salvation”, but it is a start.
Ok…but why would Jesus need to save us from any of that if God already did beforehand?
Yes, I think you are getting to the bottom line of John Duns Scotus. I cannot speak for him, but I will try to be more clear, or reword a way of looking at it all (see below).
I guess here’s what I mean: it seems to me that from a perspective that there is no debt to God, then we are already united with God.
So I have 2 concerns:
  1. If we are already united with God prior to Christ, what significance does Christ have? And how can this in anyway be reconciled with Tradition which has stated that Christ is our link to God–our Mediator?
But perhaps you grant that and we are just talking past each other…
Good point on “talking past each other.” Realistically, we can only attempt not to talk past each other. Every word we speak has different experiences, so communication is only an attempt, IMO.
So, Christ is the link to God as God-incarnate. But each and every one of us has a link to the Father, right? Jesus is showing us that we are all linked. Jesus is the way, the truth, the life. We are literally nothing without God, and He has always dwelled within us. In a “God always favors” view, the favor is there, but it is not in our nature to see! Jesus came to open our eyes, cure our blindness, among many other things. It took a supernatural effort (Jesus) to make this happen. Faith, too, is supernatural.
  1. If there is no debt, doesn’t that entail there is no separation from God? So where does this leave sin? Even if you say there is a failure to be aware of God’s love, that entails a separation, because God’s love isn’t realized in us.
To understand, consider the “separation” within the individual human. Ignorance and blindness separate us from our own love of God. In the “always favors” view, God always loves and is part of us, but we do not realize it, we don’t recognize it, so we don’t return it. So yes, in either view, there is a “separation” of a sort.
When I speak of debt in this topic, I am (generally) referring to separation, not as if God lends money and expects repayment. I believe it is the latter image that Ratzinger and Francis are denying.
God’s loves is present “to us” at all times, but it isn’t actualized “in us” until we receive sanctifying grace.
So, in the “always favored” view, that grace comes in the form of awareness, I suppose.
Hopefully I was clear enough in the last post what I meant when I am speaking about debt. So that sums up my thoughts on Francis’ words. He wasn’t denying debt per se, but a particular picture of the reality (similar to Ratzinger…if you get Introduction to Christianity or read it, you might be amazed how much Francis appears to “steal” ideas from it…especially “controversial” things like triumphalist Christianity…etc…etc…)
Did I forget to tell you I read the whole book? Now, let’s turn it around. Can you see the legitimacy of the “picture of the reality” criticized by Ratzinger? Infinite debt incurred requires infinite payment, so Jesus had to die. Makes sense, doesn’t it?
I can’t see how it is possible to give any causal significance to Christ if God’s love is present to us outside of Jesus–there is no salvation outside the Church or Christ.
A priest once explained to us, “even the non-Christian who is saved, is saved through Christ.” Doesn’t the CCC address salvation outside the Church?

(cont’d)
 
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CrossofChrist:
I guess this all comes down to what you really mean by “no-debt” view. If we aren’t in anyway separated from God, what value does faith have? Wouldn’t we already realize and be aware of God’s love in that case?
We could be separated from our own love of God. Remember the commandment? Why the #1 commandment? Despite the unity, we don’t realize, we are not aware of God’s love. All sin stems from this lack of awareness, the lack of awareness is an essential ingredient in all sin, right? After all, God is in everyone, we sin against those people in who we do not see God, or are blind to God’s presence. It is through reconciliation and awareness that we see God’s presence in everyone. Jesus’ revelation, his forgiveness from the cross, was supernatural, and to me, it was necessary to really show me what it means to love and forgive. I cannot think of a more moving context for “Forgive them, for they know not what they do.”.
I think the reason why “debt” is used so often–in the sense that we owe worship to God in the order of justice–is because to fail to give God what he deserves is a sin against justice. Because God is just. And justice against God can become tangible to us using terminology like “debt”. So then we have a debt (that is, we have sinned), an offense against God that if we are to be in a state of grace must be “made right” (sin must be atoned for, taken away). Our failure which separates us must be made right, or forgiven (the separation has to be taken away).
So, we return to the idea of payment. “to fail to give God what he deserves is a sin against (God). Because God is (God). There is an offense, and we are to make up for, “make right”, the offense. This is the legitimate expiation view.
God offers us regardless of any roadblocks. In fact, what I am saying is God’s offer is simultaneously what removes any roadblocks for us to get to God. All we have to do is accept God’s offer that is ever present to us, so that the sin which separates us from God can be removed and God can become present in us.
Does this make any sense to you?
Yes, it makes sense in terms of expiation. Something “blocks” favor. In the non-separation-from-God (God never disfavors) view, God is present, already, in all of us, but we do not recognize Him. We are “separated” from our own love of God and neighbor. Fr. Rohr quotes Paula D’Arcy: “God comes disguised as our life”. When we resent our own lives, we resent God. Christ shows us how to love God, by steering our own mind away from our self and our miseries, and turn toward service to others. The “eternal life” is one of service.
I would say God’s favor to us is in Jesus, and outside of Jesus there is no favor. But Christ is both ever present to us by his unity with God and has merits that extend for all times in every place, which means simultaneously that there is no time when God disfavors. If we are in disfavor with God, it is entirely because of our rejection of grace, not because of God not loving us or not offering salvation to us.
So, still there is the possibility of disfavor. God loves us, but the consequence of our rejection of grace is disfavor. We sense disfavor, and from whence does it come?
Lo, but I am out of time. I hope to offer something that may give some insight to another approach, and a means to harmony. I think I am ready to post it – when I can get back on here.

In the mean time, I do have time to add that in the “always favors” view (for lack of a better description!:)), “merit” is not part of the equation, ever, even if there is a sense of debt. In the other view, God sees right through any rejection, and sees the ignorance and/or blindness behind the rejection. The person is seen as unaware. The source I soon quote will also reveal something about “merit”, I think.

I don’t know about you, but if nothing else, I am learning a lot about my own “lack” in terms of ability to use the English language to describe the paradox!

Thanks again.:).
 
I am ready to harmonize.
Are you willing to break bread with someone like me who holds different opinions?
Hi Granny!

So, how does the “logical divine-cum-human legal system” distort the perspective?
Normally, a distortion occurs when an essential element is deemphasized. For example. When we consider humanity owed a debt" as in this thread’s title, we silently bypass the fact that all humanity was in Adam as “one body of one man”. (Source of information. Catholic doctrines)

I view Adam as a real historic person.
“We as men live not only directly from God but from one another, and in the last analysis from the One who lived for all…” says the Cardinal. What does it mean when man “lets himself fall, ceases to cling to himself and ventures on the leap away from himself into the infinite, the leap through which alone he can come to himself.”?
I am not sure what that means. However, I know from other writing, that the Cardinal teaches that the relationship between humans is also important.
When I hold others to a debt, when I hold something against people, Granny, it is about me. When I let go of those inhibitions, I leap away from myself, my demands! Do you see the “change in direction” referred to by the Cardinal? In my reading of the Introduction God is telling us, not “It is all about me”, He is saying, “It’s all about you.”! To follow Christ’s example (Abba’s example), in this view, is to let go of the demands we have on one another, to love freely, without inhibition, as God loves us.
That sounds reasonable for a human relationship with another human. In order to harmonize that with my opinion that Adam is the historical first human, you would need to shift to a relationship between the Divine Creator and the human creature. If that shift is not appealing, than we are stuck with only human actions between two humans. Seems to me, that the people you quote keep referring to a “God”. So, please tell me how you would like to bring God into our discussion.
To me,I “needed” to let go of the idea that God ever holds anything against me (or anyone else). This I see as legitimate.
Out of respect for others, I can consider that any idea could be seen as legitimate for a particular individual. However, when we harmonize two different legitimate opinions, there are legitimate questions. For example, what exactly would God hold against you or any one else, myself included?
I also see as legitimate the idea that God held something against Adam, therefore the human race. This is an inhibition, but this is the way I also saw God.
Again, there are the legitimate questions – What exactly is the something that God held against Adam, therefore the human race? How is inhibition used or what is it?
Now, if you are ready to acknowledge with me the legitimacy of the two perspectives, we can work to harmonize them.
I am ready. 😃

In order for us to stay on the same page, let’s put your two perspectives on the table. Since I did ask a couple of questions, then it would be your job to clarify your two perspectives. Or you could rephrase them. It is your choice regarding the exact wording of the legitimate two perspectives.

Thank you.
God Bless you, Granny, do take care of yourself! 🙂
May God take care of both of us.
 
Good, good morning, Granny!
Here is my legitimate view, we can harmonize God is a Pure Spirit which makes Him more powerful that humans who are a unification of both matter and spirit, Will you break bread with me since I firmly believe that Adam is the first fully-complete human Person.
I am ready to harmonize.
Are you willing to break bread with someone like me who holds different opinions?
Yes, and I do so with open arms and a big, sincere smile!😃
Normally, a distortion occurs when an essential element is deemphasized. For example. When we consider humanity owed a debt" as in this thread’s title, we silently bypass the fact that all humanity was in Adam as “one body of one man”. (Source of information. Catholic doctrines)

I view Adam as a real historic person.
Yes, the view that Adam is a real, historic person is legitimate.

My quote:
“We as men live not only directly from God but from one another, and in the last analysis from the One who lived for all…” says the Cardinal. What does it mean when man “lets himself fall, ceases to cling to himself and ventures on the leap away from himself into the infinite, the leap through which alone he can come to himself.”?
I am not sure what that means. However, I know from other writing, that the Cardinal teaches that the relationship between humans is also important.
Well,this is the explanation I offered:

When I hold others to a debt, when I hold something against people, Granny, it is about me. When I let go of those inhibitions, I leap away from myself, my demands! Do you see the “change in direction” referred to by the Cardinal? In my reading of the Introduction God is telling us, not “It is all about me”, He is saying, “It’s all about you.”! To follow Christ’s example (Abba’s example), in this view, is to let go of the demands we have on one another, to love freely, without inhibition, as God loves us.
That sounds reasonable for a human relationship with another human. In order to harmonize that with my opinion that Adam is the historical first human, you would need to shift to a relationship between the Divine Creator and the human creature. If that shift is not appealing, than we are stuck with only human actions between two humans. Seems to me, that the people you quote keep referring to a “God”. So, please tell me how you would like to bring God into our discussion.
This is one of the very subtle points that I had noticed in the Cardinal’s writing, and is much further developed in Good Goats, Healing Our Image of God by the Linns. Did you notice the Cardinal’s use of the word “sinister”? When he did that,* he weighed the view he was criticizing against his own image of a loving God.* In other words, he was subtly exemplifying, in the book, that one can legitimately compare what we humans know as love to what is written somewhere. Anselm did this when he rejected Augustine’s view, and Duns Scotus did this in response to many others. Cardinal Ratzinger did the same. What this says is that it is legitimate to understand God’s love in the context of human experience. If something is written that makes God appear less loving, less than omnibenevolent, than what we know in our human experience, then one can legitimately modify so that it makes sense in terms of love.

So, Granny, because each of us approach any word with a completely different set of experiences, there has to be some “give”. One person is going to see another’s view as “sinister”, but no one thinks that their own view is sinister.

This is a very long explanation of how we bring God into the discussion. What I am reading from the Cardinal is that we don’t leave the written works about God up to “mystery” when we are showing that God is Love. We can indeed use our human relationships, as in the image of God, to understand why God does as he does, and when one of us finds something God does as questionable in the context of “God is Love”, then such questioning and difference of opinion is legitimate. Ultimately, a discussion about God is a discussion about love.

Now, what do you think of that answer, and what is your answer, how do you think that we should bring God into the discussion?

(cont’d)
 
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grannymh:
Out of respect for others, I can consider that any idea could be seen as legitimate for a particular individual. However, when we harmonize two different legitimate opinions, there are legitimate questions. For example, what exactly would God hold against you or any one else, myself included?
Sin.
Again, there are the legitimate questions – What exactly is the something that God held against Adam, therefore the human race? How is inhibition used or what is it?
Sin, in the form of disobedience, is a legitimate view.
In order for us to stay on the same page, let’s put your two perspectives on the table. Since I did ask a couple of questions, then it would be your job to clarify your two perspectives. Or you could rephrase them. It is your choice regarding the exact wording of the legitimate two perspectives.

Thank you.

May God take care of both of us.
I have been trying for the last 16 pages to clarify the two perspectives. However, since I am not in the minds of any of the parties (Anselm, Augustine, Ratzinger, etc), I have to resort to my own personal experience, and, again, even if I read everything ever written by someone, I can still only interpret what they say through the eyes of my own experience! Let me give up, then (for the moment), and keep it personal: I have viewed, earlier in my life, that Jesus came to pay for our wrongs, to die for our sins because it was what was necessary in order to make up for our sins, and make things right again with God, that love and forgiveness are conditional. I see that view as legitimate. Now, however, I see that God never held anything against us, for His love and forgiveness are unconditional, uninhibited, unlimited. I see this view, also, as legitimate. After all, does anyone hold a view that they do not think is legitimate?

Thanks, Granny!🙂 I look forward to your response. I am going from “busy” to “busier”, though, so I apologize up front about being tardy with responses.
 
Hi Folks,

I have a small window of time here, to try to type this up and share, so ready or not, here it comes! I preface what I am about to share with the words (paraphrased) of St. Thomas Aquinas, who said that revelation comes from both the study of scripture and the study of nature.

So, since we learn more about nature every day, once in awhile we come across something that is particularly moving. Of course, even for scientists, one has to consider the source. For example, there are plenty of scientists who promote the idea of the “selfish gene” and that all any living animal ever does is what benefits the continuation of their own genetics. However, there are also plenty of scientists out there that hold that behaviors involve much, much more than simple carrying on of genes, and this is especially the case when it comes to human behavior. One of these individuals is Frans de Waal, who has a very positive view of human nature, and I share his view. And, of course, the view is based in sound science. I cannot speak for de Waal’s own spiritual perspectives, for all I know he is agnostic or other, I don’t know. For the purpose of this post, it does not matter. What does matter is that what follows is an instance of observation.

Before I share his observation, I must say that the whole idea of debt, the human perception of debt, is a matter of psychology, and ultimately a matter of anthropology. Why does the human sense a debt? From where does it come?

Now, for the observation:

“One balmy evening at the Arnhem Zoo, when the keeper called the chimps inside, two adolescent females refused to enter the building. The weather was superb. They had the whole island to themselves and they loved it. The rule at the zoo was that none of the apes would get fed until all of them had moved inside. The obstinate teenagers caused a grumpy mood among the rest. When they finally did come in, several hours late, they were assigned a separate bedroom by the keeper so as to prevent reprisals. This protected them only temporarily, though. The next morning, out on the island, the entire colony vented its frustration about the delayed meal by a mass pursuit ending in a physical beating of the culprits. That evening, they were the first to come in.”

Frans de Waal

Okay, yes, I am talking about apes. However, we can use observation of another species, in primatology, to shed light on anthropology. Above is displayed a very rudimentary sense of justice, and sense of debt. Justice was carried out, and such means of mitigation served a purpose, it had a function.

Now, I am very tempted to write a justification for adding this here, and provide pages of my own commentary, but I will let that sit for a moment, and I invite criticism, questions, even wrath! (Please note, though, if you give me wrath I may want to compare/contrast such wrath with that of chimpanzees!:))

A real pointed question might be: “How on Earth does that observation of chimpanzees add to the discussion of legitimacy?”

May God continue to bless your advent season, and bring warmth and love into your day!🙂
 
Good, good morning, Granny!
You have given me a lot of good material to work with. Thank you.
Yes, the view that Adam is a real, historic person is legitimate.
I have completed enough research to agree to “The view that Adam is a real, historic person is legitimate.”

The next step is to list other legitimate views about Adam.

While I need to do more research on the negative views of Adam, for example, Adam is a only a symbol, I am open to most, not all, of the negative views of Adam’s literal reality. Open in the sense that I need to learn all the nitty-gritty in the negative opinions. Not open in the sense, that my understanding automatically means acceptance.

The next step is for you to offer the other legitimate views.
When I hold others to a debt, when I hold something against people, Granny, it is about me. When I let go of those inhibitions, I leap away from myself, my demands! Do you see the “change in direction” referred to by the Cardinal?
I did not see the “change in direction” referred to by the Cardinal because I have not read most of the quotations in this thread. It is my free choice to use the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, as my source for doctrinal information. Obviously, you may quote from any source when presenting legitimate views of the reality or non-reality of Adam.
This is one of the very subtle points that I had noticed in the Cardinal’s writing, and is much further developed in Good Goats, Healing Our Image of God by the Linns. Did you notice the Cardinal’s use of the word “sinister”? When he did that,* he weighed the view he was criticizing against his own image of a loving God.* In other words, he was subtly exemplifying, in the book, that one can legitimately compare what we humans know as love to what is written somewhere. Anselm did this when he rejected Augustine’s view, and Duns Scotus did this in response to many others. Cardinal Ratzinger did the same. What this says is that it is legitimate to understand God’s love in the context of human experience. If something is written that makes God appear less loving, less than omnibenevolent, than what we know in our human experience, then one can legitimately modify so that it makes sense in terms of love.
Before dealing with the word “sinister”, I need to first know the other legitimate views of Adam.
So, Granny, because each of us approach any word with a completely different set of experiences, there has to be some “give”. One person is going to see another’s view as “sinister”, but no one thinks that their own view is sinister.
This is a very good point. We can see how it works after all the legitimate views of Adam are on the table.
This is a very long explanation of how we bring God into the discussion. What I am reading from the Cardinal is that we don’t leave the written works about God up to “mystery” when we are showing that God is Love. We can indeed use our human relationships, as in the image of God, to understand why God does as he does, and when one of us finds something God does as questionable in the context of “God is Love”, then such questioning and difference of opinion is legitimate. Ultimately, a discussion about God is a discussion about love.
Another excellent point. Hold on to it so that we can discuss it as part of the other legitimate views of Adam-- once they are on the table.
Now, what do you think of that answer, and what is your answer, how do you think that we should bring God into the discussion?

(cont’d)
The most direct way to bring God into our discussion about Adam is to declare the existence of God as Creator as a presumption.
 
Originally Posted by grannymh
Out of respect for others, I can consider that any idea could be seen as legitimate for a particular individual. However, when we harmonize two different legitimate opinions, there are legitimate questions. For example, what exactly would God hold against you or any one else, myself included?
Originally Posted by grannymh
Again, there are the legitimate questions – What exactly is the something that God held against Adam, therefore the human race?
Answer from OneSheep
“Sin, in the form of disobedience, is a legitimate view.”
Disobedience is an excellent view, in my humble opinion.

You probably noticed that I specified Adam. Once the other legitimate views on Adam’s historic reality or non-reality have been expressed here in a post, then we can move on to sin.
I have been trying for the last 16 pages to clarify the two perspectives. However, since I am not in the minds of any of the parties (Anselm, Augustine, Ratzinger, etc), I have to resort to my own personal experience, and, again, even if I read everything ever written by someone, I can still only interpret what they say through the eyes of my own experience! Let me give up, then (for the moment), and keep it personal: I have viewed, earlier in my life, that Jesus came to pay for our wrongs, to die for our sins because it was what was necessary in order to make up for our sins, and make things right again with God, that love and forgiveness are conditional. I see that view as legitimate. Now, however, I see that God never held anything against us, for His love and forgiveness are unconditional, uninhibited, unlimited. I see this view, also, as legitimate. After all, does anyone hold a view that they do not think is legitimate?
Hold on to this good material. It will come in handy as soon as all the legitimate views of Adam’s reality or non-reality are expressed here.
Thanks, Granny!🙂 I look forward to your response. I am going from “busy” to “busier”, though, so I apologize up front about being tardy with responses.
Do take your time. I may not be as busy as you are; however, my brain needs a rest.:yawn::sleep:
 
I have viewed, earlier in my life, that Jesus came to pay for our wrongs, to die for our sins because it was what was necessary in order to make up for our sins, and make things right again with God,
Up to here your statement makes some sense, but why do the problems below here connect with the above? Why can’t Jesus “pay” for our sin without just loving and forgiving conditionally?
that love and forgiveness are conditional. I see that view as legitimate. Now, however, I see that God never held anything against us, for His love and forgiveness are unconditional, uninhibited, unlimited. I see this view, also, as legitimate. After all, does anyone hold a view that they do not think is legitimate?
In one blog post I’ve read long ago and have now found again I copy this rebuttal to the wrathful god (lower case since we are not talking here about the true God) view. The part that I think says it best starts with a quote of Isaiah prophesying that our sins are bore by Christ:
calledtocommunion.com/2010/04/catholic-and-reformed-conceptions-of-the-atonement/
Surely he hath borne our infirmities and carried our sorrows: and we have thought him as it were a leper, and as one struck by God and afflicted. But he was wounded for our iniquities, he was bruised for our sins: the chastisement of our peace was upon him, and by his bruises we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray, every one hath turned aside into his own way: and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. … And the Lord was pleased to bruise him in infirmity: if he shall lay down his life for sin, he shall see a long-lived seed, and the will of the Lord shall be prosperous in his hand. Because his soul hath laboured, he shall see and be filled: by his knowledge shall this my just servant justify many, and he shall bear their iniquities. (Isaiah 53;4-6, 10-11)
This means that Christ carried in His body the sufferings that sin has brought into the world, and that Christ suffered in His soul over all the sins of the world, and their offense against God. He bore our iniquities not in the sense that God punished Him for what we did, but in the sense that He grieved over them all, in solidarity with us. That is what it means that the Lord laid on Him the iniquity of us all. He suffered the consequences of sin (i.e. suffering, grief, death), by entering into solidarity with us, entering into our fallen world, and allowing Himself to suffer in it with us, for us, even by our hands.
So, this is another way of saying both/and; Jesus took our sins and suffered from their consequences, and He enters into solidarity and Communion with us when our wills are open, i.e. repentant, in a state of grace, etc. Also, God is not exacting revenge, but loves Jesus for His saving gift to us whom He has also always loved unconditionally.
 
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OneSheep:
So, Christ is the link to God as God-incarnate. But each and every one of us has a link to the Father, right? Jesus is showing us that we are all linked. Jesus is the way, the truth, the life. We are literally nothing without God, and He has always dwelled within us. In a “God always favors” view, the favor is there, but it is not in our nature to see! Jesus came to open our eyes, cure our blindness, among many other things. It took a supernatural effort (Jesus) to make this happen. Faith, too, is
(cont’d)
Will get to the rest in a day or two…just wanted to clarify this.

Christ is our link to the entire Trinity, not just the Second Person of the Trinity.

Dominus Iesus 11-12 specifically, though all of it is great, covers this…here are some snippets of 12:
  1. There are also those who propose the hypothesis of an economy of the Holy Spirit with a more universal breadth than that of the Incarnate Word, crucified and risen. This position also is contrary to the Catholic faith, which, on the contrary, considers the salvific incarnation of the Word as a trinitarian event. In the New Testament, the mystery of Jesus, the Incarnate Word, constitutes the place of the Holy Spirit’s presence as well as the principle of the Spirit’s effusion on humanity, not only in messianic times (cf. Acts 2:32-36; Jn 7:39, 20:22; 1 Cor 15:45), but also prior to his coming in history (cf. 1 Cor 10:4; 1 Pet 1:10-12).
The Second Vatican Council has recalled to the consciousness of the Church’s faith this fundamental truth. In presenting the Father’s salvific plan for all humanity, the Council closely links the mystery of Christ from its very beginnings with that of the Spirit.35 The entire work of building the Church by Jesus Christ the Head, in the course of the centuries, is seen as an action which he does in communion with his Spirit.36

Furthermore, the salvific action of Jesus Christ, with and through his Spirit, extends beyond the visible boundaries of the Church to all humanity. Speaking of the paschal mystery, in which Christ even now associates the believer to himself in a living manner in the Spirit and gives him the hope of resurrection, the Council states: “All this holds true not only for Christians but also for all men of good will in whose hearts grace is active invisibly. For since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partners, in a way known to God, in the paschal mystery”.37



In conclusion, the action of the Spirit is not outside or parallel to the action of Christ. There is only one salvific economy of the One and Triune God, realized in the mystery of the incarnation, death, and resurrection of the Son of God, actualized with the cooperation of the Holy Spirit, and extended in its salvific value to all humanity and to the entire universe: “No one, therefore, can enter into communion with God except through Christ, by the working of the Holy Spirit”.41


  1. It must therefore be firmly believed as a truth of Catholic faith that the universal salvific will of the One and Triune God is offered and accomplished once for all in the mystery of the incarnation, death, and resurrection of the Son of God.
 
Hi Folks,

I have a small window of time here, to try to type this up and share, so ready or not, here it comes! I preface what I am about to share with the words (paraphrased) of St. Thomas Aquinas, who said that revelation comes from both the study of scripture and the study of nature.

So, since we learn more about nature every day, once in awhile we come across something that is particularly moving. Of course, even for scientists, one has to consider the source. For example, there are plenty of scientists who promote the idea of the “selfish gene” and that all any living animal ever does is what benefits the continuation of their own genetics. However, there are also plenty of scientists out there that hold that behaviors involve much, much more than simple carrying on of genes, and this is especially the case when it comes to human behavior. One of these individuals is Frans de Waal, who has a very positive view of human nature, and I share his view. And, of course, the view is based in sound science. I cannot speak for de Waal’s own spiritual perspectives, for all I know he is agnostic or other, I don’t know. For the purpose of this post, it does not matter. What does matter is that what follows is an instance of observation.

Before I share his observation, I must say that the whole idea of debt, the human perception of debt, is a matter of psychology, and ultimately a matter of anthropology. Why does the human sense a debt? From where does it come?

Now, for the observation:

“One balmy evening at the Arnhem Zoo, when the keeper called the chimps inside, two adolescent females refused to enter the building. The weather was superb. They had the whole island to themselves and they loved it. The rule at the zoo was that none of the apes would get fed until all of them had moved inside. The obstinate teenagers caused a grumpy mood among the rest. When they finally did come in, several hours late, they were assigned a separate bedroom by the keeper so as to prevent reprisals. This protected them only temporarily, though. The next morning, out on the island, the entire colony vented its frustration about the delayed meal by a mass pursuit ending in a physical beating of the culprits. That evening, they were the first to come in.”

Frans de Waal

Okay, yes, I am talking about apes. However, we can use observation of another species, in primatology, to shed light on anthropology. Above is displayed a very rudimentary sense of justice, and sense of debt. Justice was carried out, and such means of mitigation served a purpose, it had a function.

Now, I am very tempted to write a justification for adding this here, and provide pages of my own commentary, but I will let that sit for a moment, and I invite criticism, questions, even wrath! (Please note, though, if you give me wrath I may want to compare/contrast such wrath with that of chimpanzees!:))

A real pointed question might be: “How on Earth does that observation of chimpanzees add to the discussion of legitimacy?”

May God continue to bless your advent season, and bring warmth and love into your day!🙂
Did the entire colony beat the two chimps or only a number of, say, elder chimps?

Just curious…😃
 
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