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drac16
Guest
I like this guy. He respects muslims enough to go to Islamic sources to get his understanding of Islam, as opposed to enunciating the moon-god theory and other such silliness.
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pnewton
Guest
I have always found Cardinal Burke very articulate and balance. However, I note that while he may not deviate from Catholic teaching, he does deviate from the way the Catholic Church words things occasionally. Specifically, he stated, “And the point I wanted to come to is this, I don’t believe it’s true that we’re all worshipping the same God, because the God of Islam is a governor.”
The Catechsim teaches, “The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm
We find in the Church’s dogmatic constitution, Lumen Gentium,”“But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place among whom are the Muslims: these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”
This is Catholic doctrine, not a place where legitimate opinions may differ. I fear reformulations of this doctrine give rise to confusion and opinions which are contrary to doctrine, like the moon-god theory.
The Catechsim teaches, “The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm
We find in the Church’s dogmatic constitution, Lumen Gentium,”“But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place among whom are the Muslims: these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”
This is Catholic doctrine, not a place where legitimate opinions may differ. I fear reformulations of this doctrine give rise to confusion and opinions which are contrary to doctrine, like the moon-god theory.
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Confiteor_Deo
Guest
A very interesting article. I’d been sort of on the fence concerning whether Muslims and Christians worship the same God, but His Eminence has helped me see that we really don’t worship the same God.
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Al_Moritz
Guest
Yes, it is Catholic doctrine that we all worship the same God. If Cardinal Burke does not adhere to it, he is on this issue outside Catholic doctrine. As you say, it is not a place where legitimate opinions may differ.
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Hatikvah
Guest
I hold that they do not, but doesn’t the CCC state that we do worship the same deity? And isn’t the CCC infallible (I’m not sure what is, I know the general rules of canonization and papal infalliblity, not here)?
It is interesting to see Catholics considering this when many I have met are “ecumenical” and try to promulgate that “we all worship the same god” (perhaps well-intentioned, but also disagreeable theology with many, many people).
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Al_Moritz
Guest
Pope John Paul II, address to representatives of the Muslims of Belgium, May 19, 1985:
“As Christians and Muslims, we encounter one another in faith in the one God, our Creator and guide, our just and merciful judge. In our daily lives we strive to put into practice God’s will according to the teaching of our respective Scriptures. We believe that God transcends our thoughts and our universe and that his loving presence accompanies us throughout each day. In prayer, we place ourselves in the presence of God to offer him our worship and thanksgiving, to ask forgiveness for our faults, and to seek his help and blessing."
Pope John Paul II , address to the young Muslims of Morocco, August 19, 1985:
“Christians and Muslims have many things in common, as believers and as human beings. We live in the same world, marked by many signs of hope, but also by multiple signs of anguish. For us, Abraham is a model of faith in God, of submission to his will and of confidence in his goodness. We believe in the same God, the one God, the living God, the God who created the world and brings his creatures to their perfection."
Pope Benedict XVI, Apostolic Exhortation, Ecclesia in Medio Oriente, September 14, 2012:
“Jews, Christians and Muslims alike believe in one God, the Creator of all men and women. May Jews, Christians and Muslims rediscover one of God’s desires, that of the unity and harmony of the human family. May Jews, Christians and Muslims find in other believers brothers and sisters to be respected and loved, and in this way, beginning in their own lands, give the beautiful witness of serenity and concord between the children of Abraham. Rather than being exploited in endless conflicts which are unjustifiable for authentic believers, the acknowledgment of one God – if lived with a pure heart – can make a powerful contribution to peace in the region and to respectful coexistence on the part of its peoples.”
Link:
**Vatican Council and Papal Statements on Islam
**
There is no ‘if’ and ‘but’, not even for Cardinal Burke. It is Catholic doctrine.
“As Christians and Muslims, we encounter one another in faith in the one God, our Creator and guide, our just and merciful judge. In our daily lives we strive to put into practice God’s will according to the teaching of our respective Scriptures. We believe that God transcends our thoughts and our universe and that his loving presence accompanies us throughout each day. In prayer, we place ourselves in the presence of God to offer him our worship and thanksgiving, to ask forgiveness for our faults, and to seek his help and blessing."
Pope John Paul II , address to the young Muslims of Morocco, August 19, 1985:
“Christians and Muslims have many things in common, as believers and as human beings. We live in the same world, marked by many signs of hope, but also by multiple signs of anguish. For us, Abraham is a model of faith in God, of submission to his will and of confidence in his goodness. We believe in the same God, the one God, the living God, the God who created the world and brings his creatures to their perfection."
Pope Benedict XVI, Apostolic Exhortation, Ecclesia in Medio Oriente, September 14, 2012:
“Jews, Christians and Muslims alike believe in one God, the Creator of all men and women. May Jews, Christians and Muslims rediscover one of God’s desires, that of the unity and harmony of the human family. May Jews, Christians and Muslims find in other believers brothers and sisters to be respected and loved, and in this way, beginning in their own lands, give the beautiful witness of serenity and concord between the children of Abraham. Rather than being exploited in endless conflicts which are unjustifiable for authentic believers, the acknowledgment of one God – if lived with a pure heart – can make a powerful contribution to peace in the region and to respectful coexistence on the part of its peoples.”
Link:
**Vatican Council and Papal Statements on Islam
**
There is no ‘if’ and ‘but’, not even for Cardinal Burke. It is Catholic doctrine.
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buffalo
Guest
Muslims Worship the One True God
In recent years many self-styled “traditionalist” Catholics have expressed shock that Pope John Paul II has stated on various occasions—usually during his apostolic journeys to nations with a strong Muslim presence—that the followers of Islam, together with Christians, worship “the one true God.” But the Holy Father has done nothing more than restate the teaching of the Second Vatican Council, which said, “The Church also views with esteem the Muslims, who worship the one and only God, living and subsistent, merciful and omnipotent, the Creator of heaven and earth” (Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions 2).
http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/muslims-worship-the-one-true-god
more
Code:
**Only Their ‘Receiving Apparatus’ Is Defective**http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/muslims-worship-the-one-true-god
more
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Confiteor_Deo
Guest
The CCC isn’t infallible as far as I know, so I don’t think it’s infallible when it says we worship the same God. If it were, I’m sure Cardinal Burke would know about it.I hold that they do not, but doesn’t the CCC state that we do worship the same deity? And isn’t the CCC infallible (I’m not sure what is, I know the general rules of canonization and papal infalliblity, not here)?
It is interesting to see Catholics considering this when many I have met are “ecumenical” and try to promulgate that “we all worship the same god” (perhaps well-intentioned, but also disagreeable theology with many, many people).
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Al_Moritz
Guest
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Al_Moritz
Guest
From the quotes of CCC, Vatican II and the Popes all together given, it is obvious that it is Catholic doctrine. Cardinal Burke errs on this point and needs to inform himself better.
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Seamus_L
Guest
Cardinal Burke is a theologian. He’s not about to make statements off the cuff without thinking about it. I’m sure he considered and chose his words wisely.
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Al_Moritz
Guest
There is nothing unambiguous about this:
**Pope John Paul II **, address to the young Muslims of Morocco, August 19, 1985:
“Christians and Muslims have many things in common, as believers and as human beings. We live in the same world, marked by many signs of hope, but also by multiple signs of anguish. For us, Abraham is a model of faith in God, of submission to his will and of confidence in his goodness. We believe in the same God,the one God, the living God, the God who created the world and brings his creatures to their perfection."
Cardinal Burke is a theologian, yes. His lack of knowledge on this issue is disappointing.
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RyanBlack
Guest
I have personally known some very highly respected theologians. Being a theologian is no guarantee against off the cuff, careless statements.
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jimcav
Guest
I’m sure he will take heed.
However, since the CCC, the Popes thoughts and Vatican II were thought out, the rise of Islamic terrorism and ISIS barbarism, along with the awakening of Sharia law, have changed much of our thinking, and shaken the world, on just what god Islam actually worships…
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Al_Moritz
Guest
Radical Islamic terrorism has nothing to do with Islam itself *). Did you know that Muslims are far bigger in number as victims of Radical Islamic terrorism than Christians or Jews?I’m sure he will take heed.
However, since the CCC, the Popes thoughts and Vatican II were thought out, the rise of Islamic terrorism and ISIS barbarism, along with the awakening of Sharia law, have changed much of our thinking, and shaken the world, on just what god Islam actually worships…
Also, apart from that, substantial errors in doctrine of the Islamic faith, as viewed from a Catholic standpoint, have no bearing on the fact that Muslims worship the same God.
*) even President G.W. Bush said that after 9/11, and visited US mosques after 9/11. Us believing that Radical Islamic terrorism is representative of Islam is precisely what the terrorists want. They win if we do so.
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jimcav
Guest
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Al_Moritz
Guest
Good choice.i’ll be quiet now, less I get suspended
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pnewton
Guest
I do not think he is outside of Catholic doctrine. It is hard to be outside of doctrine based on one sentence. Consider this. Cardinal Burke is not a polytheist. He does not believe in multiple gods. He also did not expound on his statement that somehow Muslims worship some pagan god, or some demon, as some fundamentalist believe. He correctly pointed out the reason he was saying it was not the same god, and these differences are real. That is why I was careful to say that only his* wording *is not in agreement with the two above references.
There is a sense, the most literal sense and the primary sense that we all worship the same God. Indeed, anyone that worships the one God must worship the only God that exists, even though he may be in serious error as to what God is like, as in the case of Islam. There is still a lot that they understand correctly about God.
Yet, there is also the sense that they worship a different God, in the subjective sense that they thing of Him differently. I may like a casual acquaintance for his patience and calm, while his wife knows him as a different person. She could say that I do not know the real John Smith. Even though I literally do know the real John Smith, subjectively, it is a different person I know than she knows.
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pnewton
Guest
The catechism is not infallible, though most of it, including this point, references a document that is infallible. That’s why I also included the quote from Lumen Gentium.
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