Cardinal Zen says Pope Francis being 'manipulated' on China

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Perhaps Pope Francis has embarked upon a strategy that he believes will spare the most people from mental anguish, physical harm, incarceration, starving, being beaten, being raped, or being killed.

In my opinion, this is another example of appealing to mob uprising among Catholics and others. It’s difficult to believe that Cardinal Zen’s only way to get his message to Pope Francis was to spill his guts to media types.

The fact that the Cardinal disobeyed protocol channels by talking to media, rather than going directly to Pope Francis, indicates that he sincerely believes what he claims. However, had he thought about the situation longer, he might have trusted in our Pope by recalling what happened in one of the Scandinavian countries when the Church decried the actions of the Nazis and they retaliated by murdering many Catholics, along with Jews who had heretofore been spared in that country.

Pope Pius XII noted that lesson and avoided making waves, insomuch as possible, while working to save the lives of thousands of Jews and others (including Catholics) scapegoated and targeted by the Nazis. Scores of articles and books derisively castigated Pope Pius XII, and, therefore, the Church, before the truth was irrefutably revealed.

“Loose lips sink ships.”
 
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Perhaps Pope Francis has embarked upon a strategy that he believes will spare the most people from mental anguish, physical harm, incarceration, starving, being beaten, being raped, or being killed.
The pope used Theodore McCarrick in this business. By the way, anyone know where he (or the investigative report on him) is/are?
 
It’s difficult to believe that Cardinal Zen’s only way to get his message to Pope Francis
It is very easy to get a message to the Pope. Unfortunately on more than one occasion he has ignored important messages until the messenger went public.
 
Yes, Cardinal Zen submitted a dubia to the Pope some time ago about the situation in China and it was ignored. He’s pretty much exhausted the official channels, so speaking out publicly about China is the last option he has left.
 
Cardinal Zen did go directly to Pope Francis, before talking to the media. He is now talking to the media because, seemingly, he believes that Pope Francis continues to misunderstand the situation by seeing it through the lens of Westerners like the Italian Parolin, who Cardinal Zen suggests misunderstands the communist state. Cardinal Zen suggests that miscalculations made from Western misunderstandings of the realities of communist China must be corrected, and it seems reasonable to me to hear him out, since he has the experience of an actual Chinese religious leader living under this communist regime.

May I ask, Minks, why your initial reaction is to characterize this situation as a ‘disobedient Cardinal spilling his guts to media to appeal to a mob’? And the history you draw from in critiquing the Cardinal’s actions, and presuming this Pope’s excellence of international political calculation, is a reference to historical actions of a different Pope in a very different historical circumstance?

I suppose what I’m asking is why in your comment you do not acknowledge the existing persecutions against Catholics on the ground in China; how these offences against Chinese Catholics seemingly worsened after the Parolin approach to trying to appease this communist state, and how the actual experts on the ground (actual Chinese people and religious leaders living through this circumstance, including Cardinal Zen) are trying to explain to the American and European officials (e.g. Francis and Parolin) that what they are doing is the opposite of help, in this particular cultural and historical circumstance. You seem to suggest that maybe Pope Francis is secretly sneaking Chinese Catholics out of China (or otherwise somehow genuinely reducing harm against them, instead of increasing harm against them); however, I am skeptical on the grounds that Cardinal Zen should then know whatever these counterpoints are, and if they were genuinely helping, he’d presumably be on-side and quiet, instead of off-side and public about it, here.

With respect, friend, history doesn’t just repeat itself. Or at least, more than one type of history repeats itself. There have indeed been popes who make political calculations that ultimately pay off to the benefit of vulnerable populations. And there have been popes who make political calculations that ultimately sabotage and harm vulnerable populations. Neither you nor I are in a position to say for certain which outcome Pope Francis’s political efforts will have (presumably both you and I, like Cardinal Zen, believe that Pope Francis intends harm reduction in China; the question though is whether the specific actions taken will concretely result in that, or whether the communists out-manipulated the religious people here). But Cardinal Zen is local to the situation, knowledgable about the situation, and his words and actions seem to me very much worth respecting and listening to. Not smearing as if he’s automatically in the wrong just because some person on the internet can think of a different pope in history who made a political calculation that was defensible.
 
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That just about sums up everything I felt like saying but could not articulate
 
Everything I have read about the Vatican-China deal seems to show that it has thus far made the situation of Catholics in China even worse, effectively putting the Church and its members under the direct authority of the Chinese Communist government, with no refuge even in the underground Church.
 
 
“China has changed, it’s no longer the China of Mao,” Affatato added, noting that leadership, markets, global trends and politics have all changed in the time since China fell under communist rule. “The cultural revolution today is not the same today as it was 60 years ago”
 
Has he ever heard of falun gong? Forcible abortion? Sale of dissents’ organs? Does he live in a bubble?
 
When it comes to political decisions, the Vatican is not protected by infallibility, as any study of history would show. I don’t think it’s a question of ‘trusting the Vatican to make the right decision’ so much though. I think that we can hope and pray that even if people make wrong decisions at any given point that through prayer, God can guide us so that good will come anyway. Of course it might not come right away and it might not be easily seen when it does if it doesn’t match up with what Society determines is good. . .but again, one can pray.
 
I’m not sure what the point of this reply was. As far as I’m concerned, it’s fully irrelevant whose hands the VC deal originated from (I’m not some kind of weird religious-politics partisan who will pretend something’s bad just because Francis touched it, or pretend something’s good just because JPII touched it).

The only relevant question is whether the deal is a good one, and Cardinal Zen seems to be indicating that he thinks it isn’t and that the current person with authority over this in the Church (Pope Francis) should therefore re-evaluate it and do something different.

PS do you really want to start playing the game of: ‘What political/bureaucratic mistakes do people already argue JPII made?’ E.g. regarding his handling of the sex abuse crisis. The man may be a saint but again, that doesn’t mean his political/bureaucratic moves were infallible and cannot be questioned. And JPII really needn’t be dragged into this anyway, because again, the buck always stops with the authority who implements (and has ongoing power to change) a state of affairs… not a previous authority who contributed to a plan but never actually implemented it and is no longer a relevant figure in terms of having the ability to re-think or change something about it.
 
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I would like to know more about the situation in China for the average Catholic.

Is there a reliable website I can visit ?
 
I’m not sure what the point of this reply was. As far as I’m concerned, it’s fully irrelevant whose hands the VC deal originated from (I’m not some kind of weird religious-politics partisan who will pretend something’s bad just because Francis touched it, or pretend something’s good just because JPII touched it).
I think the obvious point is that people on the Internet taking one side or another are simply not privy to private papal meetings and the concerns being discussed by the Holy See, and are simply cluelessly reacting to Internet headlines and making judgments from thousands of miles away. Much like those who condemned Pius XII and accused him of “silence” during WWII, not realizing how much he was doing and why he saw as the best course of action. These days, everyone seems to be an armchair Pope.
 
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