Care of elders

[gardenswithkids]

…What I’m saying is, there are many more traditional parts of the world where it is normal and expected of a child, sometimes as young as 7 or 8, to look after sick or ailing parents/grandparents. What can we possibly teach our children that is more important than caring for their families? …

The advanced medical technology that we use here in America that can prolong the life of many elderly people. Many aren’t comfortable or capable of running IV’s or feeding tubes in their homes–and certainly a child of 7 or 8 wouldn’t be able to do the lifting and transfer required in nursing homes. I know of many Americans who cared for elderly relatives for years, then the elderly person transfered to a nursing home following a hospitalization at the very end of their lives. Without advanced medical care, these elderly people would likely have died much earlier–perhaps while cared for by family at home.

I know several people who lived with or near their grandparents, (and I still know some who do that) and who help care for them. Yet many Americans often move farther away from the place of their birth. The USA is considerably larger than Scotland so someone may move thousands of miles away and still live in the USA. There is also a strong “independent” streak among Americans–some elderly actually prefer to live in retirement communities.

Some of your concerns may also be a language barrier. The term “retirement home” has entirely different connotations that “nursing home”. “Retirement homes” can mean a resort-like place with golf. (Didn’t the Scottish invent golf?) Sometimes its even the retired persons who move to warmer climates like Florida or Arizona, leaving behind their adult children and grandchildren. And if grandmother or grandfather gets sick while living down in Florida, we don’t expect an 8 year old grandchild to fly down there to run a tube feeding and administer IV anti-biotics.

 

[lizaanne]

I think there is a line of distinction that needs to be drawn in the discussion that I’m starting to see, but is being addressed as one instead of two different circumstances.

You have an elderly person who perhaps should not live alone due to mild dementia or mobility but is not ill. And you have an elderly person who is medically fragile and in need of medical care.

These two situations require drastically different approaches. The first can probably very easily be handled by most families, with adjustments of course. The latter requires professional care, regardless of how well intentioned the family might be.

Apples and oranges - and an important distinction to make.

~Liza

 

[brotherhrolf]

My father had a stroke in 1983 and was in a coma for over three months. My sister still lived in New Orleans with my mother. My brother lived in Mobile and I was here in Baton Rouge. I was down in NO every Saturday even though I only got to see my father for a few minutes at 12 and 3.

When he was released to the rehab center, I was there along with DW and his first born grandson, every Saturday during visiting hrs. Thanks be to God he recovered.

In 1991 my 80 year old MIL had a stroke. DW, me, and both kids took care of her. Yes, we had to have nurses to stay with her during the day. The boys had to go to school and DW and I had full time jobs. But the sitters were there ONLY when neither one of us was around and at work. We took care of MIL for well over a year before she went to her eternal reward.

In 1996, my father developed kidney cancer. We were there every weekend for the three months it took him to pass away. My brother lived in town and my sister left my neice with her husband an hour and a half away until school let out.

One month after my father passed away, my mother had a stroke. She tried to stay in New Orleans and my brother and I were there to stay with her. Ultimately, she moved in with my sister and my brother and I vistited my sister’s house the weekends to check up on Mamma.

Mamma lived for five years after my father. My brother and I spent 5 years of cutting the grass at the old homestead because “Mamma didn’'t want no strangers on her property”. I would have willingly paid a lawn service to cut the grass to keep me from having to drive an hour and a half to cut the grass. “Mamma didn’t want no strangers cutting the grass on her property.” (Mamma spent few and far between weekends in New Orleans after my father passed away).

I didn’t even mention DW. DW’s father passed away in 1980. Our first born was born in August of 1981. We had to wait until the lease on our rented house ran out. And then we moved out to the country and lived in a trailer (mobile home) for the next 10 years so that DW could take care of her mother.

I am a middle class American who’s been through three separate occassions of taking care of sick parents. Pardon me, but your expericence must be of a bunch of rich Yankees. For the rest of us middle class types, we take care of our aging parents the best way we know how. Which involves an awful lot of blood, sweat, and tears on our families. I’m Irish, Scot, French, English and German…and we don’t abandon our parents.

 

[duskyjewel]

What can we possibly teach our children that is more important than caring for their families? The family is the basic unit of the Church, the first place where we live out the commandment to love our neighbour as ourselves.

IMHO there is a link between selfishness, forward-thinking, liberalism and general education. Our spiritual, political and scientific leaders need book learning. The rest of the population needs to learn to bear with the station which God has dealt them in life and learn how to love one another and respect their elders and betters. This is the stuff of tradition. If education can be added to virtue, well and good, but if we sacrifice virtue and tradition for education and wealth, we are in grave danger indeed.

Where to even begin? Just because I value education (and you will find most Americans do) does not mean I am teaching my children that school is more important than their family obligations. I think they need to have a sound foundation in BOTH. How on Earth would I be able to expect them to care for or provide for me in old age should I need it, if they never got a good education and could not get a good job? They’re not going to be able to support anyone if they are doing teenage jobs like burger flipping or low-skill, low-paying jobs due to lack of education when I am old. And I don’t necessarily mean university. But my kids know that if they choose not to go to university, then they will be going to school or apprenticing to learn a valuable and marketable skill, or joining the military, and bettering themselves and their skill set that way.

Your comment about only leaders needing education leads to oligarchy. Why should knowldedge be the province of only a select few, who will then invariably lord it over the rest of the population? The people who do the voting, who elect the leaders and pay the taxes they spend, also need to be educated. They need to know how to evaluate an argument, spot flaws in logic, and know when they are being fed a snow job. They need to understand basic economics, so politicians can’t tell them some of the outrageous things they say now and get away with it. They need to know history, so they can see when people are making mistakes and vote them out! This idea is so unAmerican, it literally turns my stomach.

I never said I wanted to sacrifice tradition and virtue in favor of education and wealth. Education can be done in such a way that it increases knowledge of and respect for traditions, and so that it enhances virtue. You can’t practice what you don’t know. And no one can live without at least a little wealth. We all need to pay our rent or mortgage, buy food and clothing, pay the utilities and medical bills, etc. Where are we going to get all that stuff without good jobs? I am certainly not going to encourage my children to rely on some socialist welfare state.

In short, I think you are making a false dichotomy. There is no reason these have to be mutually exclusive.

 

[RWMorris]

A HUGE APOLOGY TO ALL THOSE WHO HAVE JUST POSTED - I am guilty of generalising far too much about Americans based on the few I have met. I am deeply sorry and did not mean to offend. My generalisation was based on a first impression.

To be honest, London is just as bad, if not worse.

I guess my problem is that America is a society founded on a revolution, thus, by definition, it is forward-looking and focussed on children first and then elders, whereas Scotland, which is ageing and backward-looking in many ways, has more of a focus on its’ elders, sometimes to the detriment of future generations. That’s why so many of our young (myself included) leave for England and America, and always have. I guess a part of this is just general homesickness and guilt at having abandoned my own roots.

I apologise if I took that out on Americans in general. That was not my intention.

Apology accepted…but I do see far too many seniors in nursing homes that could be with their families.
My parents are getting old and I have informed them that unless they have a disease that necessitates around-the-clock medical care, they will always have a home with me.

 

[OldAgeGuru]

Exactly.

I’m very glad DL has now informed me that a BS, and two Masters degrees are totally worthless, and I should be sitting around with my thumbs up my tush waiting for my parents to become old and infirm.

There is NOTHING wrong with getting an education. There is nothing wrong with holding a job.

My parents would NEVER have let me drop out of college to care for my grandparents when I was 18-19 (they passed away in my first two years of college) If it came down to it, I would have taken a semester or two off. But it would NEVER have flown in my family to quit school. Every woman in my family (except me, I broke the vicious cycle) is a teacher. Both grandmothers, my mother and all of my aunts are or were educators. My grandmothers would have risen from the grave and dragged me back to Boston and shoved me in a desk and would threaten to continue to haunt me from the great beyond if I dropped out of college. My own mother would most likely have beaten me into submission if I chose to drop out. Having an enducation doesn’t mean you love your family less, it doesn’t mean you won’t love your children less. Having a job doesn’t mean you are a materialistic jerk who would rather have a Mercedes than a mother.

There are a lof of uncomfortable questions to ask your parents Do you have long term care insurance? Have you done estate planning? Preplanned burial? Have you discussed with your spouse what your wishes are in a worst case scenario? Power of Attorney? Conservator? Rep Payee? Gaurdianship? Health Care Proxy? What happens if you become incompetent?

And above all… the elders have some self determination here too. What if they don’t want you to take care of them?

 

[RWMorris]

Exactly.

I’m very glad DL has now informed me that a BS, and two Masters degrees are totally worthless, and I should be sitting around with my thumbs up my tush waiting for my parents to become old and infirm.

There is NOTHING wrong with getting an education. There is nothing wrong with holding a job.

My parents would NEVER have let me drop out of college to care for my grandparents when I was 18-19 (they passed away in my first two years of college) If it came down to it, I would have taken a semester or two off. But it would NEVER have flown in my family to quit school. Every woman in my family (except me, I broke the vicious cycle) is a teacher. Both grandmothers, my mother and all of my aunts are or were educators. My grandmothers would have risen from the grave and dragged me back to Boston and shoved me in a desk and would threaten to continue to haunt me from the great beyond if I dropped out of college. My own mother would most likely have beaten me into submission if I chose to drop out. Having an enducation doesn’t mean you love your family less, it doesn’t mean you won’t love your children less. Having a job doesn’t mean you are a materialistic jerk who would rather have a Mercedes than a mother.

There are a lof of uncomfortable questions to ask your parents Do you have long term care insurance? Have you done estate planning? Preplanned burial? Have you discussed with your spouse what your wishes are in a worst case scenario? Power of Attorney? Conservator? Rep Payee? Gaurdianship? Health Care Proxy? What happens if you become incompetent?

And above all… the elders have some self determination here too. What if they don’t want you to take care of them?

You have brought up some very good questions.

 

[LSK]

A HUGE APOLOGY TO ALL THOSE WHO HAVE JUST POSTED - I am guilty of generalising far too much about Americans based on the few I have met. I am deeply sorry and did not mean to offend. My generalisation was based on a first impression.

To be honest, London is just as bad, if not worse.

I guess my problem is that America is a society founded on a revolution, thus, by definition, it is forward-looking and focussed on children first and then elders, whereas Scotland, which is ageing and backward-looking in many ways, has more of a focus on its’ elders, sometimes to the detriment of future generations. That’s why so many of our young (myself included) leave for England and America, and always have. I guess a part of this is just general homesickness and guilt at having abandoned my own roots.

I apologise if I took that out on Americans in general. That was not my intention.

Both me and mine accept your apology, my friend, and I hope you find lots of people in America who can share with you their personal experiences of the joy we have found caring for members of our family.

 

[LSK]

My parents would NEVER have let me drop out of college to care for my grandparents when I was 18-19 (they passed away in my first two years of college) If it came down to it, I would have taken a semester or two off. But it would NEVER have flown in my family to quit school. Every woman in my family (except me, I broke the vicious cycle) is a teacher. Both grandmothers, my mother and all of my aunts are or were educators. My grandmothers would have risen from the grave and dragged me back to Boston and shoved me in a desk and would threaten to continue to haunt me from the great beyond if I dropped out of college. My own mother would most likely have beaten me into submission if I chose to drop out. Having an enducation doesn’t mean you love your family less, it doesn’t mean you won’t love your children less. Having a job doesn’t mean you are a materialistic jerk who would rather have a Mercedes than a mother.

oh man, I think we are related./…

 

[OldAgeGuru]

I think it’s an American experience. How many of us had parents or grandparents who’s life experience never allowed for a high school diploma, let alone a Bachelors degree, a Masters or a PhD? (God I hope I don’t need a PhD. I’m sick of working on my MS in Gerontology, I can’t handle writing any more papers). Education is a way out of poverty, It’s a way to legitimize yourself within society. And to top it off… no matter what happens to you, no one can EVER take away your education. Well… I suppose they could lobotomize you, but that’s fallen a wee bit out of fashion these days.

When my parents are older, I will gladly help them out in any way that I can. But I will only help them with what they let me help them with. It’s a natural instinct to want to swoop in and do everything for them, but that’s not the best thing. Keeping your parents as independent as possible for as long as possible is what’s best for them. I also would certainly never allow my child or children to drop out of school, whether it’s high school, or college to care for their grandparents. That’s MY job. They have a right to be young. This is not to say I will allow them to shirk responsibility, but it’s not their job to care for my parents, or my husband’s parents.

I also have had these conversations with my parents. I know what they want, and what’s been planned, and what I should do if something happens. But then I’ve also been VERY clear about what I want should something happen to me.

To bring up a sensitive topic… EVERYONE whether they are 22 or 222 should have a health care proxy and a living will. I can’t stress it enough. In a situation, that is already stressful, it eliminates any arguments and alleviates a little stress for the parties involved.

 

[MSJoan]

Are there people (young and old) in nursing facilities because they have no one who is willing to provide care for them? Yes. Are there people in nursing homes who require a level of care their family/friends are physically, mentally, or financially unable to provide? Yes.

Are there people who would receive better care in a nursing home than at home, but their families keep them at home to continue to benefit from their financial status? Sadly, enough to keep many Adult Protective Services units very busy.

But these aren’t the majority of elderly or infirmed adults. My family is one who believes in caring for family members at home. My 80 year old mother provides care to my incontinent, occasionally confused 98 year old great aunt, who uses a walker for short distances and a wheelchair for longer ones. She enjoys being waited on. My brother lives there also and the rest of us visit regularly. My great aunt is also thoroughly entertained by my 7 year old daughter.

My mother in law lived with us a short time before requiring hospitalization. She knew she was dying, but refused to allow us to bring her home - she didn’t want to be a burden, so she died in the sub-acute unit of a nursing home. It’s also possible the person themself can be the driver for facility care.

Stepping outside my family life, I recently completed a research study whose participants were caregivers of patients with dementia. What really struck me was the incidental finding of sacrificial giving - these caregivers often neglected/sacrificed themselves to provide for their spouse. Some sustained musculoskeletal injuries providing care. Many of the dementia patients couldn’t even remember they were married, much less that the person caring for them was their spouse. But these caregivers kept giving. The reason cited by many…‘it’s what a spouse does’ and ‘I promised God for better or for worse’. When asked what would make them stop providing this level of care, the answers given were…‘when I can’t’ ‘I don’t even think about that’, and ‘when I’m dead.’

(OldAgeGuru - if you’re already into the MS, go for the Ph.D. while you are into paper writing mode!!!)

 

[Listener]

There is nothing at all wrong with putting your parents in a nursing home. Sometimes it is the most loving thing to do. Nursing homes have special equipment for lifting people who cannot get out of bed. If you’re trying to take care of someone at home and you find it impossible to lift them out of bed, you’re just out of luck.

Remember the story of the Good Samaritan in the Bible. He didn’t personally take care of the injured man. Instead he paid an innkeeper to take care of him.

 

[jazzbaby1]

IMHO there is a link between selfishness, forward-thinking, liberalism and general education. Our spiritual, political and scientific leaders need book learning. The rest of the population needs to learn to bear with the station which God has dealt them in life and learn how to love one another and respect their elders and betters. This is the stuff of tradition. If education can be added to virtue, well and good, but if we sacrifice virtue and tradition for education and wealth, we are in grave danger indeed.

Dude, you’re moving into the society that created Horatio Alger and his wonderful stories. All Americans LOVE the story of the plucky shoe shine boy who, through hard work and dilligence, eventually owned the shoe company. Look at Oprah Winfrey, look at B. B. King, look at all the people who have bettered THEMSLEVES rather than resign themselves. How do YOU know that these people weren’t called forward by God for a specific purpose, like David the Shepherd King or Esther who became Queen?

 

[OldAgeGuru]

(OldAgeGuru - if you’re already into the MS, go for the Ph.D. while you are into paper writing mode!!!)

NOOOOOOO! No more papers. I wish I could get my PhD in shopping. If I do get the PhD it’ll be in addiction counseling. I think elder substance abuse is fascinating. I have several clients who have drug and alcohol problems. I have people I’ve pink slipped into detox programs, and they come out worse than before. I think it would be super interesting to do that, but my parents said if I’m going to continue gettting advanced education, I should maybe look into something that is going to get me out of poverty, and social services just ain’t gonna do it

 

[jman507]

DL I think you do bring up a valid enough point. It can be easy enough to put elders out of sight out of mind. On the other hand, being ridged on keeping elderly home, might be leading to worse care for both the elder and the caregiver. Most of it is a value judgement, and even that’s shaky enough to say what is right. It’s shaky enough to keep what you do true to your value. In the US we might tend to error one way more and where you came from error on the other way.

If one makes it an arguement to say elder care vs. education, that to comes down to a value judgment. The one thing I’d say though, try to carefully discern what you are going to do. It could be either/or or to some degree of both. One may have to always continue to reasses, and change plans. If you carefully discerned, don’t worry about second-guessing yourself. The thing is what is important is that you don’t waste your oppurtunaty to learn and grow no matter the choice. You can learn a lot at school, and you can learn a lot caring for the needy.