Career Issues

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mdleagedguy

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Hi!

First of all, I want to say that I am happy to have a good job that supports my family. However, we have a lot of kids and I didn’t always make much money. As a result, we have no savings. I need to begin preparing for retirement, but every time I turn around there is one major expense after another that we could not have foreseen. We have been unable to save anything. I really need to increase my income. However, I have run into issues where I work.

To put it bluntly, management where I work looks down on large families. They recently offered a baby shower for a lesbian couple, but not for our last child. There have been snide comments about the number of children we have (8) made in front of and tolerated by management. Although I don’t discuss my religion at work, they have been able to deduce based on my family size that we are Catholic.

I have prior management experience. I was very successful as a manager. My employees loved me, and ten years later I run into them and they give me a hug or shake my hand and we catch up on things. We had a 40% increase in sales and doubled our profits during my tenure at my last company. I left because I had topped out and the economy put our expansion plans on hold indefinitely. I moved to a non-management job that paid more money with another company because I had a growing family and needed additional income. While at my new employer I completed an MBA. I received a 4.0 GPA. I always get stellar performance reviews. I was a rising star and was promoted early. That is, until it began to circulate how many kids we have. Now when introduced to clients or new employees the first thing co-workers and supervisors say is “Tell them how many kids you have!” Now I’m proud of my family, but it’s not a matter for people’s entertainment, and it’s unrelated to my job. When we had our last kid, I was shuffled without my knowledge or consent into a dead-end position while I was out on parental leave. It has no exposure to clients or decision makers in other divisions.

We have had three supervisor openings that I applied for. You would think that a person with an MBA and prior management experience would be a competitive candidate. Not so. In post-interview feedback I was told the first time that they weren’t sure I could get along with people who are different from me. What’s that supposed to mean? I get along with everyone. Co-workers like me and are always telling me that they think I would make a great supervisor. The second time a different manager also gave negative, personal feedback that sounded a lot like anti-Catholic stereotypes. It completely contradicted all of my performance reviews. Now with the most recent opening they promoted someone with no management experience, and I don’t think she even has a college degree. She’s a good employee, but she’s not a leader. I don’t even think she has a college degree. Again, no knock against her because she’s a nice person and capable at what she does. But she is really a follower. I have received notice that I didn’t get the job about a week before other people I know also applied received notice that they didn’t get it. I thought I brought my A-game to the interview.

I’m not sure what to do. I would jump ship to another company, however one of my kids has cancer. It’s incurable, but there is treatment to put it into remission. It will likely keep coming back for the rest of his life. He’s been treating for nine months now. We have an outstanding health plan. With a standard plan we would not be able to afford the co-pays. With the plan we have, we pay only a nominal amount for co-pays. I’m afraid to go to HR with my concerns. We recently had a scandal that forced out a several executives, including the head of HR. This was the third scandal in ten years. Our culture is dysfunctional, and there is a distinct lack of moral integrity among our upper managers. As they say, if you’re going to kill the king you had better succeed, and I know that I would be retaliated against if I said anything. I have been retaliated against twice already when I have brought problems (with solutions) to management. Now no one on my team ever says there is any sort of problem that needs to be addressed. You get punished if you do. To give you an idea of the lack of moral integrity, I know of multiple managers who ditched their spouses for a co-worker and still work there. Right now, in my dead-end position people leave me alone and I can pretty much do as I please. I’ve saved the company several million dollars. That never made it to my performance review because it embarrassed some people above me who had made mistakes.

I feel stuck there. I can’t afford a pay cut if I went elsewhere, and I can’t afford a different health plan because of my son’s cancer. I feel my talents are under-utilized. I don’t like the lack of integrity. I know now that I will never be promoted no matter what my background and performance is. None of my prior management experience means anything. My MBA doesn’t mean anything. My performance doesn’t mean anything. I would really like to begin saving for retirement. By the time all the kids are out of the house, I will have under ten years to save money. I may need to assist my son with cancer treatment if his illness flares up when he’s no longer under our health plan.

I know I should count my blessings, and trust God. And I do. But it just gnaws on me. Any advice on how to either find a way to advance my career or else accept with grace the situation I am in now? Is this God teaching me (again) about humility? 🤷
 
I have two pieces of advice:
  1. Lawyer if you stay
A lawyer can tell you whether you have any religious discrimination grounds to take to the EEOC, how to document things at work, whether to stay or go, etc.
  1. Headhunter if you go
A headhunter can find you a position at a company with equivalent benefits. I know your main fear is your child’s care and the financial position a lesser health plan could put you in. There are lots of good jobs out there and a recruiter can find them for you. You may be pleasantly surprised at what is out there.
 
I know I should count my blessings, and trust God. And I do. But it just gnaws on me. Any advice on how to either find a way to advance my career or else accept with grace the situation I am in now? Is this God teaching me (again) about humility? 🤷
I’m not in a corporate environment, but life experience has taught me three things I thought I’d toss out there for you to consider.
  1. Through some incredibly tough times and decisions, I’ve come to embrace the concept that God is not a God of fear. Most decisions I make based on fearing what might happen rather than looking at them objectively have been the ones I regret - esp. one where I stayed in a horrible job situation for almost a decade. Doesn’t mean that I’ve made the right choices otherwise, or that the roads been smooth - but I do have no regrets and peace in my heart about the decisions I made based on prayer, hope, information and facts rather than doing/avoiding something out of fear.
  2. There is almost never only two choices. Sometimes it takes some really hard work to figure out a third way (or modification of one of the choices) - but there’s usually another option out there. Now I don’t have any idea what that may be for you - be it a hobby or side talent you could use to generate income to create savings or supplement a different job - or something else you could arrange to maintain your child’s health coverage - or a way to turn things around at the company you’re at. But I bet there’s something you can do while actively waiting for the situation to change.
  3. That’s the third thing - change always happens. Either you make it happen or you deal with what happens when someone else causes it. But things just don’t stay the same.
Wish I had better advice or ideas for you. Prayers and best wishes for you and your family.
 
Yes, you should consult a lawyer familiar with religious discrimination issues. Also consult with a health benefits expert about your son’s care. Portability options usually exist.

With an MBA and management experience, you should have your choice of good jobs. Don’t feel stuck at this one company.
 
They recently offered a baby shower for a lesbian couple, but not for our last child.
I thought baby showers were only thrown for first babies? I’m not defending them throwing one for a lesbian couple, but I’m not sure why you’d expect one for your 8th (or 2nd, 3rd, etc).
Now when introduced to clients or new employees the first thing co-workers and supervisors say is “Tell them how many kids you have!”
That just sounds like it’s a fun talking point. If they were really embarrassed by your personal circumstances, they wouldn’t raise this in front of clients.
Now I’m proud of my family, but it’s not a matter for people’s entertainment, and it’s unrelated to my job.
Fair enough.
I know of multiple managers who ditched their spouses for a co-worker and still work there.
Hang on…you object to people in your company judging you based on issues unrelated to your job, and yet aren’t you doing exactly that here?

Anyway…in general…

I’d take 1ke’s advice and start working with headhunters/recruiters. It sounds like your opportunities at your present company are limited, whether via discrimination or simply because current management doesn’t value your contributions.
 
I have two pieces of advice:
  1. Lawyer if you stay
A lawyer can tell you whether you have any religious discrimination grounds to take to the EEOC, how to document things at work, whether to stay or go, etc.
  1. Headhunter if you go
A headhunter can find you a position at a company with equivalent benefits. I know your main fear is your child’s care and the financial position a lesser health plan could put you in. There are lots of good jobs out there and a recruiter can find them for you. You may be pleasantly surprised at what is out there.
Litigation takes years, and it wouldn’t put food on the table in the meantime. My company has demonstrated a complete lack of concern over employment litigation. They don’t care. They’ve been sued for employment issues before and it changes nothing.

A headhunter seems like a good idea.

Thanks!
 
I’m not in a corporate environment, but life experience has taught me three things I thought I’d toss out there for you to consider.
  1. Through some incredibly tough times and decisions, I’ve come to embrace the concept that God is not a God of fear. Most decisions I make based on fearing what might happen rather than looking at them objectively have been the ones I regret - esp. one where I stayed in a horrible job situation for almost a decade. Doesn’t mean that I’ve made the right choices otherwise, or that the roads been smooth - but I do have no regrets and peace in my heart about the decisions I made based on prayer, hope, information and facts rather than doing/avoiding something out of fear.
  2. There is almost never only two choices. Sometimes it takes some really hard work to figure out a third way (or modification of one of the choices) - but there’s usually another option out there. Now I don’t have any idea what that may be for you - be it a hobby or side talent you could use to generate income to create savings or supplement a different job - or something else you could arrange to maintain your child’s health coverage - or a way to turn things around at the company you’re at. But I bet there’s something you can do while actively waiting for the situation to change.
  3. That’s the third thing - change always happens. Either you make it happen or you deal with what happens when someone else causes it. But things just don’t stay the same.
Wish I had better advice or ideas for you. Prayers and best wishes for you and your family.
Thanks! I think there are risks to standing still where I am at, so I need to find a third way. I’ve been looking for consulting work on the side, but there are challenges to marketing it, and I’m not good at marketing. But if I could make a go at it there is the potential to make enough to be able to prepare for retirement. The odds are low, however.
 
I thought baby showers were only thrown for first babies? I’m not defending them throwing one for a lesbian couple, but I’m not sure why you’d expect one for your 8th (or 2nd, 3rd, etc).

That just sounds like it’s a fun talking point. If they were really embarrassed by your personal circumstances, they wouldn’t raise this in front of clients.

Fair enough.

Hang on…you object to people in your company judging you based on issues unrelated to your job, and yet aren’t you doing exactly that here?

Anyway…in general…

I’d take 1ke’s advice and start working with headhunters/recruiters. It sounds like your opportunities at your present company are limited, whether via discrimination or simply because current management doesn’t value your contributions.
  1. Actually, they’re looking for when the person expresses shock at someone having eight kids, and then they get a good laugh out of it. I know this from experience. You and I might think having eight kids endearing, but not people from this culture.
  2. You are mistaken regarding me judging managers on issues unrelated to the job. They have hooked up with subordinates or other managers even while being married to people who also work for the company. Besides the adultery part being objectively wrong, it’s bad for morale. It creates the impression of favoritism. It creates doubt among employees regarding how they are being evaluated, whether it’s if they are sexually appealing or competent. It destroys trust in the manager when they violate important promises they have made. It creates a poor work environment when managers are boffing the help under the noses of their spouses. Sorry, but you’re off base there. A manager who cheated on his wife with one of the assistants also threw me under the bus on a matter where I did exactly as he told me and it turned out badly. That’s called lack of integrity and it’s not hard to spot when people act like that.
 
  1. You are mistaken regarding me judging managers on issues unrelated to the job. They have hooked up with subordinates or other managers even while being married to people who also work for the company. Besides the adultery part being objectively wrong, it’s bad for morale. It creates the impression of favoritism. It creates doubt among employees regarding how they are being evaluated, whether it’s if they are sexually appealing or competent. It destroys trust in the manager when they violate important promises they have made. It creates a poor work environment when managers are boffing the help under the noses of their spouses. Sorry, but you’re off base there. A manager who cheated on his wife with one of the assistants also threw me under the bus on a matter where I did exactly as he told me and it turned out badly. That’s called lack of integrity and it’s not hard to spot when people act like that.
OK, thanks for clarifying.

This sounds like a company you should leave regardless. Sounds like a real mess.
 
Litigation takes years, and it wouldn’t put food on the table in the meantime. My company has demonstrated a complete lack of concern over employment litigation. They don’t care. They’ve been sued for employment issues before and it changes nothing.
Agree that litigation might not be a good idea right now.

It wouldn’t hurt if you could run it by an employment lawyer just to get an opinion. But it seems that it would be difficult to prove and it could make matters worse. From the looks of things there’s no solid proof of religious discrimination. Having children or having a large family isn’t a “protected class” by itself (it could be if it’s used to discriminate against women, i.e., if they ask all women about marital status or children).

I would, however, privately look for something else.

Good luck.
 
Litigation takes years, and it wouldn’t put food on the table in the meantime. My company has demonstrated a complete lack of concern over employment litigation. They don’t care. They’ve been sued for employment issues before and it changes nothing.

A headhunter seems like a good idea.

Thanks!
I always think a professional opinion is a good idea.
 
This morning I tried to find an attorney. Because of the kind of insurance products we provide to employers, labor attorneys often get involved. I can’t find any that I would not have to fill out a conflict of interest form with my company. This would tip them off and threaten my job. If I don’t declare a conflict I could later be terminated for cause, killing any case for discrimination.
 
I have decided that I will call around and see if they have any current cases with my company. If they do not that should not be a conflict of interest. I will seek advice prior to meeting for post interview feedback. Once that is done I will contact our HR department as required by our company policy. this should prove interesting.
 
it has been my experience that sadly, complaining to HR just never pays off. Also, my heart bleeds for you because I have enough of my own career issues, I know how hard it could be and with 8 kids, this is even more stressful.

Next time they say ‘tell them how many kids you have’, would you be able to say ‘I prefer not to discuss my family?’ Would that help ease some of the stress?

Also, if money is tight, are your kids old enough your wife can go to work? Are your kids old enough for part time jobs?

From purely a financial point of view, yes this is a very discouraging situation, however, from a Catholic’s point of view God is bigger than all this

Sorry I could not help more

Angie
 
it has been my experience that sadly, complaining to HR just never pays off. Also, my heart bleeds for you because I have enough of my own career issues, I know how hard it could be and with 8 kids, this is even more stressful.

Next time they say ‘tell them how many kids you have’, would you be able to say ‘I prefer not to discuss my family?’ Would that help ease some of the stress?

Also, if money is tight, are your kids old enough your wife can go to work? Are your kids old enough for part time jobs?

From purely a financial point of view, yes this is a very discouraging situation, however, from a Catholic’s point of view God is bigger than all this

Sorry I could not help more

Angie
My wife went back to work a year ago, but it’s very part time and she makes very little. Yes, God is bigger than all this. It was actually God’s providence that got me this job. We were homeschooling, and I needed more money after my previous employer’s expansion plans were killed by the recession. I had time to apply for exactly one job. There was an ice storm the day of my interview. The snow plow cleared the highway beginning at my on-ramp, and was just ahead of my off-ramp, or I would not have made it. I walked into the interview exactly on time. I got the job despite no experience in that industry. There were over 400 applicants. It allowed me to support our growing family. I see God’s hand in that. I’m having trouble seeing it now. I’ve usually got clear signs about what I need to do. I don’t have that here. I’m not sure why. I don’t have a clear feeling of “I need to do x, y, and z” like I usually do. I don’t know what this means. I feel painted into a corner, and it’s like I need to wait for the paint to dry. This is how I take care of my family, so it feels threatening. If I were single I would absolutely just ditch the job and do something else, but it’s not about me and my feelings anymore.
 
Well, I can definitely relate to being in a bad situation, trusting God and everything working out and then years later being in the same situation again and not understanding why the second time around, God seems to be doing nothing

I will pray for you

Angie
 
Well, a few thoughts:
  1. If the company culture is not so much into integrity, they will want someone who thinks like them to manage them.
  2. Maybe there’s an age thing going on here - older people, even starting as young as mid 30s, are definitely discriminated against.
  3. MBAs really don’t mean what they used to since there are so many more people with MBAs now.
  4. Maybe you could go to a career counselor and see how you could repackage yourself and even consider a different career that uses similar skills that you have.
  5. Maybe it’s just time to go. The environment of companies sometimes changes, and not always for the better.
 
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