Caring for Premature Babies: Cruel?

[Mary_Gail_36]

But, this happened in the UK, not a particularly poor country. Giving care to this baby wouldn’t remove it directly from another baby.

For a while, my baby was the smallest in the NICU. He had the most elaborate and expensive isolette there. When he was about 2 weeks old, a 24 week baby was born. She needed my son’s isolette. They didn’t say, that the 24 week baby couldn’t have it. My son was moved to a different isolette. It didn’t effect my son’s care.

 

[JMJ_coder]

If you don’t realize that there is a clear and distinct difference between following the Church’s wise teachings about ordinary and extraordinary means of care, and euthanasia, then we can’t even carry on an informed discussion.

Ordinary means include nutrition, liquids, and an oxygen environment – none of which was provided for this infant. The doctors didn’t even bother to do a thorough diagnosis – the baby was too young for them to care about regardless of what course of treatment the patient wants (or in this case the mother who has legal medical oversee) and that is euthanasia.

Again, if you had a small chance of survival would you want the doctors to just turn away because you’re not worth – not a thought to any treatments or want you may want to opt for.

You win some, you lose some. Losing the fight is radically different than not even showing up for the game.

 

[Calliso]

Ordinary means include nutrition, liquids, and an oxygen environment – none of which was provided for this infant. The doctors didn’t even bother to do a thorough diagnosis – the baby was too young for them to care about regardless of what course of treatment the patient wants (or in this case the mother who has legal medical oversee) and that is euthanasia.

Again, if you had a small chance of survival would you want the doctors to just turn away because you’re not worth – not a thought to any treatments or want you may want to opt for.

You win some, you lose some. Losing the fight is radically different than not even showing up for the game.

I think the thing some of us our trying to say though is a 21 week old premie has almost no chance of survival. Now that;s not to say that that they shouldn;t be made comfortable but 21 week old premies require extraidanary care in order to survive. And even then most of the time they will die. But others have said it better then me…I think the situation your talking about here and the situation with a 21-week old premie are two different things.

 

[Calliso]

But, this happened in the UK, not a particularly poor country. Giving care to this baby wouldn’t remove it directly from another baby.

For a while, my baby was the smallest in the NICU. He had the most elaborate and expensive isolette there. When he was about 2 weeks old, a 24 week baby was born. She needed my son’s isolette. They didn’t say, that the 24 week baby couldn’t have it. My son was moved to a different isolette. It didn’t effect my son’s care.

Yes maybe but what if we decided to try and save all these babies? Not to mention as others have pointed out sometimes it really doesn;t matter how much resources you throw at the problem. If the child isn;t developed enough to survive it wonlt surivive.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Yes maybe but what if we decided to try and save all these babies? Not to mention as others have pointed out sometimes it really doesn;t matter how much resources you throw at the problem. If the child isn;t developed enough to survive it wonlt surivive.

That brings us back to the point on how many preemie babies actually survive the birth. The skeleton hardens during the 3rd trimester, and full term baby’s bones are still pretty pliable. The strong contractions needed for labor often cause a preemie to suffocate.

Preemie babies, I learned also get an apgar score. My baby, thank God, had a score of 9. What should be done with a baby who has no pulse, and is not breathing? I don’t know the answer, unfortunately.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Ordinary means include nutrition, liquids, and an oxygen environment – none of which was provided for this infant. The doctors didn’t even bother to do a thorough diagnosis – the baby was too young for them to care about regardless of what course of treatment the patient wants (or in this case the mother who has legal medical oversee) and that is euthanasia.

Again, if you had a small chance of survival would you want the doctors to just turn away because you’re not worth – not a thought to any treatments or want you may want to opt for.

You win some, you lose some. Losing the fight is radically different than not even showing up for the game.

A 21 week baby was born while my son was at the NICU. The NICU team did go to the birth. I did not see the baby in the NICU, so I assume the baby did not survive. The point is that they did go. I don’t know what happened in the delivery room, or if the baby actually survived the birth.

 

[JMJ_coder]

I think the thing some of us our trying to say though is a 21 week old premie has almost no chance of survival. Now that;s not to say that that they shouldn;t be made comfortable but 21 week old premies require extraidanary care in order to survive. And even then most of the time they will die. But others have said it better then me…I think the situation your talking about here and the situation with a 21-week old premie are two different things.

And one of the things that I and some others here are saying is it isn’t up to the doctors or a government policy to decide who can get care.

All ordinary care must always be given, period - I don’t care if a patient is going to be dead in 2 minutes ordinary care must be given.

Of extraordinary care (food, water, oxygen, etc. isn’t extraordinary - it’s ordinary), if there is even the faintest, most remote possibility of a treatment available, it is up to the patient or those for them (e.g., medical power of attorney) to choose the course of action or inaction.

 

[JMJ_coder]

What should be done with a baby who has no pulse, and is not breathing? I don’t know the answer, unfortunately.

Tragically, not much can be done for stillborn babies (as far as I know). Perhaps some resuscitative first-aid could be applied, like CPR?

 

[dixieagle]

Ordinary means include nutrition, liquids, and an oxygen environment – none of which was provided for this infant. The doctors didn’t even bother to do a thorough diagnosis – the baby was too young for them to care about regardless of what course of treatment the patient wants (or in this case the mother who has legal medical oversee) and that is euthanasia.

Again, if you had a small chance of survival would you want the doctors to just turn away because you’re not worth – not a thought to any treatments or want you may want to opt for.

You win some, you lose some. Losing the fight is radically different than not even showing up for the game.

As I have pointed out in a previous post, certainly any baby born alive, no matter how early, should receive warmth, oxygen, fluids (if possible; sometimes IVs cause serious damage to underdeveloped tissues.) The fact of the matter is that, at this point, technology can only do so much, and preemies born before a certain stage (22 weeks seems to be the line) simply aren’t - with exceedingly rare exception - developed enough to survive.

As another poster pointed out, perhaps the best hope for these tiny babies is development of treatments that will stop labor.

 

[St_Francis]

And one of the things that I and some others here are saying is it isn’t up to the doctors or a government policy to decide who can get care.

All ordinary care must always be given, period - I don’t care if a patient is going to be dead in 2 minutes ordinary care must be given.

Of extraordinary care (food, water, oxygen, etc. isn’t extraordinary - it’s ordinary), if there is even the faintest, most remote possibility of a treatment available, it is up to the patient or those for them (e.g., medical power of attorney) to choose the course of action or inaction.

Oxygen is extraordinary care.

 

[St_Francis]

Tragically, not much can be done for stillborn babies (as far as I know). Perhaps some resuscitative first-aid could be applied, like CPR?

For a baby born full-term of close to full-term, they probably assess the situation to see if this would be worthwhile doing. For a baby born so early, tho, they probably would not.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Oxygen is extraordinary care.

In what world are you living in that giving someone air to breath is NOT an ordinary means of preserving life?

 

[JMJ_coder]

For a baby born full-term of close to full-term, they probably assess the situation to see if this would be worthwhile doing. For a baby born so early, tho, they probably would not.

According to the Catechism (2278): …The decisions should be made by the patient if he is competent and able or, if not, by those legally entitled to act for the patient, whose reasonable will and legitimate interests must always be respected.

Thus, it is not up to the doctors to decide – it is up to, in the case of babies, the parents to decide what if any extraordinary courses of actions will be taken. This is, of course, assuming that the baby survives birth or can be resuscitated, which in the case of stillborns is far from a foregone conclusion.

 

[Arwen037]

I have personally seen a baby who was born at 24 weeks, at an adjusted age (how old they would be had they been born at the proper time) of 6 months, he was a little small, but perfectly normal other than that (and I know this because I was observing testing and discussion about his health status). And people don’t want to say that we should treat babies born that early. What about babies born on time who require just as much care, such as a child born tangled in the umbilical cord and was oxygen deprived? And what becomes the cut-off? I believe most babies born at 7mo survive, so what about a 6 1/2 mo? It becomes a dangerous line to draw.

 

[JoanREDirector]

My darling little saint was born four months too early in 1968 at a crowded military hospital in Hawaii. He struggled for breath for about six hours before he died. In those days, not much could be done for him. My husband and I were young and dumb. I wish we had known that we had the right to be with him for those few hours but we stayed away as we were told. I’m not angry with the hospital staff. They thought they were doing the kindest thing for everyone. A compassionate Catholic nurse baptized him before the umbilical chord was cut and we gave him back to God.

Never, never would I have tormented him with useless medical procedures, poor little soul. Why ever would I make my own baby suffer? If there was any chance that his life could have been saved, we would have spent all the money we had and stayed by his side for as long as it took, but I know our decision was the best one for our baby.

After forty years I’m weeping over my keyboard as I type, but I am happy to think that he died with dignity and peace.

 

[St_Francis]

My darling little saint was born four months too early in 1968 at a crowded military hospital in Hawaii. He struggled for breath for about six hours before he died. In those days, not much could be done for him. My husband and I were young and dumb. I wish we had known that we had the right to be with him for those few hours but we stayed away as we were told. I’m not angry with the hospital staff. They thought they were doing the kindest thing for everyone. A compassionate Catholic nurse baptized him before the umbilical chord was cut and we gave him back to God.

Never, never would I have tormented him with useless medical procedures, poor little soul. Why ever would I make my own baby suffer? If there was any chance that his life could have been saved, we would have spent all the money we had and stayed by his side for as long as it took, but I know our decision was the best one for our baby.

After forty years I’m weeping over my keyboard as I type, but I am happy to think that he died with dignity and peace.

I am so sorry for your loss.

 

[St_Francis]

In what world are you living in that giving someone air to breath is NOT an ordinary means of preserving life?

The world in which if a person is being kept alive only by a ventilator and a feeding tube, you can discontinue the ventilator but not the feeding tube.

 

[wabrams]

In what world are you living in that giving someone air to breath is NOT an ordinary means of preserving life?

The world where they are just too young for their lungs to even perfuse, ventilator or not.

 

[JMJ_coder]

The world in which if a person is being kept alive only by a ventilator and a feeding tube, you can discontinue the ventilator but not the feeding tube.

A ventilator is much different than tubes in the nose, or being in a 100% oxygen environment, or even a trachetomy. I do, however, still place a ventilator in a category of care that must be given unless explicitly denied by the patient or their legal proxy.

 

[Arwen037]

To JoanREDirector,
So if your child could have been saved by medical procedures, you would have approved of them? 24 weeks is about 4 months premature, correct? Now we have the ability to save children that young, the procedures aren’t useless. I just think we should give children that chance.