CARM almost messed up my head

[Church_Militant]

I feel the same way. It’s ironic.

The VERY worst anti-catholics are “ex-preists and nuns”.

It seems like the 2nd worst anti-catholics are “grew up in Catholic School, served as altar-boy, and seriously considered becoming a priest (or nun)” people.

I sometimes wonder if this stuff is scripted.

Guilty consciences.

 

[NotWorthy]

Guilty consciences.

No, I don’t have a guilty conscience… or consciences (as the case may be)

 

[mom2three]

I’ve put my trust in the Catholic Church so I turn to her for answers for CARM. CARM stands for Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry. I read about Roman Catholics.

I admit that I’m an uneducated Catholic, and I do know that many Protestants aim at people like me, but 1 Timothy 3:15 and I believe Catholicism is it. So, I need help.

Yikes, that site is NOT a good place for Catholics who do not know or understand their faith. It was, however, a Catholic on that site who causes me to take a deeper look into Catholicism and now I’m becoming a Catholic.

I would say, until your feet are firmly planted in the Church of history established by Christ himself, that you should not go back to that website.

I have found that their “Christian charity” is seriously lacking and I cannot tell you how many times I have been damned to hell since converting to Catholicism by members of that site.

God bless and may you be filled with only the truth!

 

[JoeyWarren]

No, I don’t have a guilty conscience… or consciences (as the case may be)

Are you implying you are an ex-Priest or ex-Nun?

 

[NotWorthy]

Are you implying you are an ex-Priest or ex-Nun?

No, I’m implying that I have a poor sense of humor and that I have multiple consciences but none of them are guilty.

 

[JoeyWarren]

No, I’m implying that I have a poor sense of humor and that I have multiple consciences but none of them are guilty.

okie dokie

 

[gardenswithkids]

Mark, before you can begin to answer criticisms of Catholicism you have to learn about your Faith. You won’t be able to feed others if you are starving yourself. I would suggest that you start with the Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Great advice! I would add the importance prayer and the Sacraments–particularly Holy Communion and Confession.

One of the dangers of apologetics is as this thread’s title implies, it can “mess up heads”. Apologetics is largely about intellectualizing faith–making it somethings that can be understood and argued. But faith is not merely an intellectual exercise–faith must be lived. And therein lies the danger of apologetics-- “faith” can become about winning arguments and “converts” (as if people are objects we can “win”. Apologetics without a living faith lacks charity.

Daily prayer is the first place to begin. We shouldn’t bother with conversation* about God *if we haven’t yet had a conversation *with *God. Then we take our conversations with other back to God in prayer. Confession is an important Sacrament to keep pride and rudeness in check. Communion feeds the soul the true food we need–Jesus. Prayer and the Sacraments are sources of healing and grace so that we stay charitable in the face of insults so our faith a living faith in the Living God.

 

[MarkA16]

Don’t think that I went to CARM on purpose! I was looking up a verse in google and clicked on CARM. There I saw a Catholicism section and clicked it. Then I was intrigued… and yeah…

Thank you all for your support. I will always come here for answers, because I know truly x100 that the real answers are here.

“You won’t be able to feed others if you are starving yourself.”

I like that!

 

[SemperJase]

Ironically enough CARM was instrumental in my journey to the Catholic Church.
I had agreed to go with my wife to RCIA. I went to CARM to get some ammunition to rebutt what I was hearing in the class. Very quickly I discovered that CARM misrepresented Catholic teaching. When I pointed out some discrepancies they were stating (even though I still didn’t believe Catholic doctrine) I was accused of being too sympathetic to Catholics. People accused me of being a Catholic or deciding to convert before I started posting (which was laughable).

I still post there but am slowing down. It has degenerated mostly into ad hominem attacks all the while claiming they love us. When I pointed out the uncharitable nature of their comments, they attempt to justify their boorishness by claiming they shouldn’t let false doctrine stand (or what they consider false doctrine). Too many have not grasped the idea of speaking truth in love.

There are some reasonable protestants there, but they have been noticably absent in the last few months.

I’ve continued posting there in the hopes of convincing lurkers. But I’ve come to the conclusion that their uncharitable behavior is self-defeating. I’m about done with them.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Ironically enough CARM was instrumental in my journey to the Catholic Church. Very quickly I discovered that CARM misrepresented Catholic teaching.

Hello SemperJase, may I ask what Catholic teaching CARM misrepresented?

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

SLICE OF LAODICEA

I 100% agree with this that slice of loadicea is one of the most anti-Catholic web-sites out there.

On a side note I like checking it out because they are always talking about not letting the reformation stand for nothing. They will say something like, “the reformers gave their lives for something they felt the need to die for, the truth and when people accept Catholics they are saying that the reformers died for notrhing.” (Somethnig along those lines you get the idea)

They will talk about how the reformers stood for the truth, when the Catholic Church looked to supress it.

Then when all is said and done their next article will be something on how any and all honor to Mary is idolatry (something the reformers did) and infant baptism is unbiblical (also something the reformers did) and finally the Real Presence is not biblical (something most reformers believed in, excpet for maybe Zwingli)… You start to wonder if the people at that site even know or have taken the time to learn what the reformers believed.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Hello SemperJase, may I ask what Catholic teaching CARM misrepresented?

Here’s just one.

This isn’t really about a doctrine or belief of the Catholic Church, but it’s about historical accuracy. In this article here, CARM claims that no where in the New Testament are the deuterocanons (“apocrypha” in CARM’s language) quoted. This is false.

CARM also implies that the Catholic Church waited until the year 1546 to declare the books of the deuterocanon as inspired and canonical. This, again, is false. What the Council of Trent (the Counter Reformation) merely did was restate the longstanding position of the Church, inspired by Christ and not by a Jewish Council after the time of Christ, that She believed the books to be inspired of God and as the guardian of Truth She commanded all Catholics to accept the Deuterocanons as Scriptural.

Here are direct or indirect quotations from the Deuterocanon in the NT (split up into three posts):

Scripture
Matt. 2:16 - Herod’s decree of slaying innocent children was prophesied in Wis. 11:7 - slaying the holy innocents.
Matt. 6:19-20 - Jesus’ statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven follows Sirach 29:11 - lay up your treasure.
Matt… 7:12 - Jesus’ golden rule “do unto others” is the converse of Tobit 4:15 - what you hate, do not do to others.
Matt. 7:16,20 - Jesus’ statement “you will know them by their fruits” follows Sirach 27:6 - the fruit discloses the cultivation.
Matt. 9:36 - the people were “like sheep without a shepherd” is same as Judith 11:19 - sheep without a shepherd.
Matt. 11:25 - Jesus’ description “Lord of heaven and earth” is the same as Tobit 7:18 - Lord of heaven and earth.
Matt. 12:42 - Jesus refers to the wisdom of Solomon which was recorded and made part of the deuterocanonical books.
Matt. 16:18 - Jesus’ reference to the “power of death” and “gates of Hades” references Wisdom 16:13.
Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 - Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers.
Matt. 24:15 - the “desolating sacrilege” Jesus refers to is also taken from 1 Macc. 1:54 and 2 Macc. 8:17.
Matt. 24:16 - let those “flee to the mountains” is taken from 1 Macc. 2:28.
Matt. 27:43 - if He is God’s Son, let God deliver him from His adversaries follows Wisdom 2:18.
Mark 4:5,16-17 - Jesus’ description of seeds falling on rocky ground and having no root follows Sirach 40:15.
Mark 9:48 - description of hell where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched references Judith 16:17.
Luke 1:42 - Elizabeth’s declaration of Mary’s blessedness above all women follows Uzziah’s declaration in Judith 13:18.
Luke 1:52 - Mary’s magnificat addressing the mighty falling from their thrones and replaced by lowly follows Sirach 10:14.
Luke 2:29 - Simeon’s declaration that he is ready to die after seeing the Child Jesus follows Tobit 11:9.
Luke 13:29 - the Lord’s description of men coming from east and west to rejoice in God follows Baruch 4:37.
Luke 21:24 - Jesus’ usage of “fall by the edge of the sword” follows Sirach 28:18.
Luke 24:4 and Acts 1:10 - Luke’s description of the two men in dazzling apparel reminds us of 2 Macc. 3:26.
John 1:3 - all things were made through Him, the Word, follows Wisdom 9:1.
John 3:13 - who has ascended into heaven but He who descended from heaven references Baruch 3:29.
John 4:48; Acts 5:12; 15:12; 2 Cor. 12:12 - Jesus’, Luke’s and Paul’s usage of “signs and wonders” follows Wisdom 8:8.
John 5:18 - Jesus claiming that God is His Father follows Wisdom 2:16.
John 6:35-59 - Jesus’ Eucharistic discourse is foreshadowed in Sirach 24:21.
John 10:22 - the identification of the feast of the dedication is taken from 1 Macc. 4:59.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

John 10:36 – Jesus accepts the inspiration of Maccabees as He analogizes the Hanukkah consecration to His own consecration to the Father in 1 Macc. 4:36.
John 15:6 - branches that don’t bear fruit and are cut down follows Wis. 4:5 where branches are broken off.
Acts 1:15 - Luke’s reference to the 120 may be a reference to 1 Macc. 3:55 - leaders of tens / restoration of the twelve.
Acts 10:34; Rom. 2:11; Gal. 2:6 - Peter’s and Paul’s statement that God shows no partiality references Sirach 35:12.
Acts 17:29 - description of false gods as like gold and silver made by men follows Wisdom 13:10.
Rom 1:18-25 - Paul’s teaching on the knowledge of the Creator and the ignorance and sin of idolatry follows Wis. 13:1-10.
Rom. 1:20 - specifically, God’s existence being evident in nature follows Wis. 13:1.
Rom. 1:23 - the sin of worshipping mortal man, birds, animals and reptiles follows Wis. 11:15; 12:24-27; 13:10; 14:8.
Rom. 1:24-27 - this idolatry results in all kinds of sexual perversion which follows Wis. 14:12,24-27.
Rom. 4:17 - Abraham is a father of many nations follows Sirach 44:19.
Rom. 5:12 - description of death and sin entering into the world is similar to Wisdom 2:24.
Rom. 9:21 - usage of the potter and the clay, making two kinds of vessels follows Wisdom 15:7.
1 Cor. 2:16 - Paul’s question, “who has known the mind of the Lord?” references Wisdom 9:13.
1 Cor. 6:12-13; 10:23-26 - warning that, while all things are good, beware of gluttony, follows Sirach 36:18 and 37:28-30.
1 Cor. 8:5-6 - Paul acknowledging many “gods” but one Lord follows Wis. 13:3.
1 Cor. 10:1 - Paul’s description of our fathers being under the cloud passing through the sea refers to Wisdom 19:7.
1 Cor. 10:20 - what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God refers to Baruch 4:7.
1 Cor. 15:29 - if no expectation of resurrection, it would be foolish to be baptized on their behalf follows 2 Macc. 12:43-45.
Eph. 1:17 - Paul’s prayer for a “spirit of wisdom” follows the prayer for the spirit of wisdom in Wisdom 7:7.
Eph. 6:14 - Paul describing the breastplate of righteousness is the same as Wis. 5:18. See also Isaiah 59:17 and 1 Thess. 5:8.
Eph. 6:13-17 - in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows Wis. 5:17-20.
1 Tim. 6:15 - Paul’s description of God as Sovereign and King of kings is from 2 Macc. 12:15; 13:4.
2 Tim. 4:8 - Paul’s description of a crown of righteousness is similar to Wisdom 5:16.
Heb. 4:12 - Paul’s description of God’s word as a sword is similar to Wisdom 18:15.
Heb. 11:5 - Enoch being taken up is also referenced in Wis 4:10 and Sir 44:16. See also 2 Kings 2:1-13 & Sir 48:9 regarding Elijah.
Heb 11:35 - Paul teaches about the martyrdom of the mother and her sons described in 2 Macc. 7:1-42.
Heb. 12:12 - the description “drooping hands” and “weak knees” comes from Sirach 25:23.
James 1:19 - let every man be quick to hear and slow to respond follows Sirach 5:11.
James 2:23 - it was reckoned to him as righteousness follows 1 Macc. 2:52 - it was reckoned to him as righteousness.
James 3:13 - James’ instruction to perform works in meekness follows Sirach 3:17.
James 5:3 - describing silver which rusts and laying up treasure follows Sirach 29:10-11.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

James 5:6 - condemning and killing the “righteous man” follows Wisdom 2:10-20.
1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter teaches about testing faith by purgatorial fire as described in Wisdom 3:5-6 and Sirach 2:5.
1 Peter 1:17 - God judging each one according to his deeds refers to Sirach 16:12 - God judges man according to his deeds.
2 Peter 2:7 - God’s rescue of a righteous man (Lot) is also described in Wisdom 10:6.
Rev. 1:4 – the seven spirits who are before his throne is taken from Tobit 12:15 – Raphael is one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints before the Holy One.
Rev. 1:18; Matt. 16:18 - power of life over death and gates of Hades follows Wis. 16:13.
Rev. 2:12 - reference to the two-edged sword is similar to the description of God’s Word in Wisdom 18:16.
Rev. 5:7 - God is described as seated on His throne, and this is the same description used in Sirach 1:8.
Rev. 8:3-4 - prayers of the saints presented to God by the hand of an angel follows Tobit 12:12,15.
Rev. 8:7 - raining of hail and fire to the earth follows Wisdom 16:22 and Sirach 39:29.
Rev. 9:3 - raining of locusts on the earth follows Wisdom 16:9.
Rev. 11:19 - the vision of the ark of the covenant (Mary) in a cloud of glory was prophesied in 2 Macc. 2:7.
Rev. 17:14 - description of God as King of kings follows 2 Macc. 13:4.
Rev. 19:1 - the cry “Hallelujah” at the coming of the new Jerusalem follows Tobit 13:18.
Rev. 19:11 - the description of the Lord on a white horse in the heavens follows 2 Macc. 3:25; 11:8.
Rev. 19:16 - description of our Lord as King of kings is taken from 2 Macc. 13:4.
Rev. 21:19 - the description of the new Jerusalem with precious stones is prophesied in Tobit 13:17.
Exodus 23:7 - do not slay the innocent and righteous - Dan. 13:53 - do not put to death an innocent and righteous person.
1 Sam. 28:7-20 – the intercessory mediation of deceased Samuel for Saul follows Sirach 46:20.
2 Kings 2:1-13 – Elijah being taken up into heaven follows Sirach 48:9.
2 Tim. 3:16 - the inspired Scripture that Paul was referring to included the deuterocanonical texts that the Protestants removed. The books Baruch, Tobit, Maccabees, Judith, Sirach, Wisdom and parts of Daniel and Esther were all included in the Septuagint that Jesus and the apostles used.
Sirach and 2 Maccabees – some Protestants argue these books are not inspired because the writers express uncertainty about their abilities. But sacred writers are often humble about their divinely inspired writings. See, for example, 1 Cor. 7:40 – Paul says he “thinks” that he has the Spirit of God.

 

[Little_Mary]

I’ve put my trust in the Catholic Church so I turn to her for answers for CARM. CARM stands for Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry. I read about Roman Catholics.

I admit that I’m an uneducated Catholic, and I do know that many Protestants aim at people like me, but 1 Timothy 3:15 and I believe Catholicism is it. So, I need help.

Go to www.biblechristiansociety.com

Please, please get those cd’s (or tapes!). You will learn a LOT about how to deal with ignorant critics. You will learn a lot about your faith as well and order the cd’s. You will absolutely love them I guarantee it. They are free but donations are appreciated, ever how small.

 

[MarkA16]

Go to www.biblechristiansociety.com

Please, please get those cd’s (or tapes!). You will learn a LOT about how to deal with ignorant critics. You will learn a lot about your faith as well and order the cd’s. You will absolutely love them I guarantee it. They are free but donations are appreciated, ever how small.

Yeah i know that site! I’ve downloaded all mp3s and put them in my iPod already! But thanks. I’ve listened to all already. But that’s all. Next time I’m going to take notes while listening.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Ironically enough CARM was instrumental in my journey to the Catholic Church.
I had agreed to go with my wife to RCIA. I went to CARM to get some ammunition to rebutt what I was hearing in the class. Very quickly I discovered that CARM misrepresented Catholic teaching. When I pointed out some discrepancies they were stating (even though I still didn’t believe Catholic doctrine) I was accused of being too sympathetic to Catholics. People accused me of being a Catholic or deciding to convert before I started posting (which was laughable).

I still post there but am slowing down. It has degenerated mostly into ad hominem attacks all the while claiming they love us. When I pointed out the uncharitable nature of their comments, they attempt to justify their boorishness by claiming they shouldn’t let false doctrine stand (or what they consider false doctrine). Too many have not grasped the idea of speaking truth in love.

There are some reasonable protestants there, but they have been noticably absent in the last few months.

I’ve continued posting there in the hopes of convincing lurkers. But I’ve come to the conclusion that their uncharitable behavior is self-defeating. I’m about done with them.

They have probably migrated to BaptistBoard.com. A Catholic can no longer join that forum if you state up front that you are Catholic. The only truth they are open to is their own percieved truth. With the absence of Catholicsl, the only battles you will see is between themselves, since each one cannot agree on any one doctrine. Other than that they are battling the Soul Sleep and Saturday Sabbath Keepers.

 

[6glargento]

They have probably migrated to BaptistBoard.com. A Catholic can no longer join that forum if you state up front that you are Catholic. The only truth they are open to is their own percieved truth. With the absence of Catholicsl, the only battles you will see is between themselves, since each one cannot agree on any one doctrine. Other than that they are battling the Soul Sleep and Saturday Sabbath Keepers.

i looked at that website, over there they are still peddling the long refuted “petros vs petra” argument. someone on that forum even said that aramaic was not the language of jesus and the apostles aqnd therefore jesus would not have called peter cephas. I think the reason why they constantly ban catholics over there is becuase they cannot refute any of our arguments. but if a person went over there prentending to be a protestant needing to refute a catholic argument maybe they would be more willing to dialog

 

[Gamera]

i looked at that website, over there they are still peddling the long refuted “petros vs petra” argument. someone on that forum even said that aramaic was not the language of jesus and the apostles aqnd therefore jesus would not have called peter cephas. I think the reason why they constantly ban catholics over there is becuase they cannot refute any of our arguments. but if a person went over there prentending to be a protestant needing to refute a catholic argument maybe they would be more willing to dialog

Maybe, but you know what, that’s just not right. God doesn’t want us to spread truth by using deception. How would we feel if a fundamentalist appeared here pretending to be Catholic and said “I’m having doubts about Catholicism for the following reasons …” We’d feel lied to. And rightly so!

Plus, in addition to being dishonest and unfair to the Protestants there, I think we’d also be sinning against our own faith by in effect denying the Catholic faith, albeit falsely.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Maybe, but you know what, that’s just not right. God doesn’t want us to spread truth by using deception. How would we feel if a fundamentalist appeared here pretending to be Catholic and said “I’m having doubts about Catholicism for the following reasons …” We’d feel lied to. And rightly so!

Plus, in addition to being dishonest and unfair to the Protestants there, I think we’d also be sinning against our own faith by in effect denying the Catholic faith, albeit falsely.

We could use the excuse that we allow for an “Undercover” Law Inforcement Officer to use?

Sometimes I think that it would be okay to go undercover as a Protestant. After all, this is an issue of Spiritual Warfare. If Satan is spreading his lies at a Christian Forum, then I would feel obligated to God to go undercover in my role as a God’s “Law Inforcement Officer”.