CARM "Cut-and-Paste" Anti-Catholic Arguments

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XndrK

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I’ve decided to start a series. Every day (that I can), I’m going to paste a new argument from the infamous CARM “Cut-and-Paste” section against Roman Catholics.

I want to see how well we at Catholic Answers can answer them all.

(If this has been done before, let me know.)

God bless,
Xander
 
First post:

The Deuterocanonical Books (aka Apocrypha by Protestants).

"Apocrypha
Code: 
"Athanasius (300?-375) excludes apocrypha from canon of scripture: "But since we have made mention of heretics as dead, but of ourselves as possessing the Divine Scriptures for salvation...some few of the simple should be beguiled from their simplicity and purity, by the subtility of certain men, and should henceforth read other books--those called apocryphal--led astray by the similarity of their names with the true books...3...to reduce into order for themselves the books termed apocryphal, and to mix them up with the divinely inspired Scripture...it seemed good to me also, having been urged thereto by true brethren, and having learned from the beginning, to set before you the books included in the Canon, and handed down, and accredited as Divine; to the end that any one who has fallen into error may condemn those who have led him astray; and... 4 There are, then, of the Old Testament, twenty-two books in number; for, as I have heard, it is handed down that this is the number of the letters among the Hebrews;5 Again it is not tedious to speak of the [books] of the New Testament..." [the apocryphal books are excluded!] (Athanasius, Festal Letter 39:2-5)
"Jerome (347-420) says Judith, Tobit, Maccabees not scripture: “As, then, the Church reads Judith, Tobit, and the books of Maccabees, but does not admit them among the canonical Scriptures, so let it read these two volumes for the edification of the people, not to give authority to doctrines of the Church.” - (Jerome, Prefaces to the Books of the Vulgate Version of the Old Testament, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Songs).
"Julius Africanus (160 - 240) says the apocrypha book of Susanna is a forgery. “In your sacred discussion with Agnomon you referred to that prophecy of Daniel which is related of his youth. This at that time, as was meet, I accepted as genuine. Now, however, I cannot understand how it escaped you that this part of the book is spurious. For, in sooth, this section, although apart from this it is elegantly written, is plainly a more modern forgery. There are many proofs of this…But a more fatal objection is, that this section, along with the other two at the end of it, is not contained in the Daniel received among the Jews.” (Julius Africanus, A Letter to Origen from Africanus About the History of Susanna)
“Question for Catholics. Do you Catholics believe what the Apocrypha teaches that putting the heart of a fish on hot coals drives away evil spirits (Tobit 6:8). Do you believe you should give money for the sins of the dead (Tobit 4:11; 2 Macc. 12:43) and do you believe that Nebachanezer was the King of the Assyrians (Judith 1:5)?”

Have fun!
 
Wholesale cut and paste from other sites is a violation of Forum Rules.
 
XndrK said:
First post:

The Deuterocanonical Books (aka Apocrypha by Protestants).

"Apocrypha
Code: 
"Athanasius (300?-375) excludes apocrypha from canon of scripture: "But since we have made mention of heretics as dead, but of ourselves as possessing the Divine Scriptures for salvation...some few of the simple should be beguiled from their simplicity and purity, by the subtility of certain men, and should henceforth read other books--those called apocryphal--led astray by the similarity of their names with the true books...3...to reduce into order for themselves the books termed apocryphal, and to mix them up with the divinely inspired Scripture...it seemed good to me also, having been urged thereto by true brethren, and having learned from the beginning, to set before you the books included in the Canon, and handed down, and accredited as Divine; to the end that any one who has fallen into error may condemn those who have led him astray; and... 4 There are, then, of the Old Testament, twenty-two books in number; for, as I have heard, it is handed down that this is the number of the letters among the Hebrews;5 Again it is not tedious to speak of the [books] of the New Testament..." [the apocryphal books are excluded!] (Athanasius, Festal Letter 39:2-5)
"Jerome (347-420) says Judith, Tobit, Maccabees not scripture: “As, then, the Church reads Judith, Tobit, and the books of Maccabees, but does not admit them among the canonical Scriptures, so let it read these two volumes for the edification of the people, not to give authority to doctrines of the Church.” - (Jerome, Prefaces to the Books of the Vulgate Version of the Old Testament, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Songs).
"Julius Africanus (160 - 240) says the apocrypha book of Susanna is a forgery. “In your sacred discussion with Agnomon you referred to that prophecy of Daniel which is related of his youth. This at that time, as was meet, I accepted as genuine. Now, however, I cannot understand how it escaped you that this part of the book is spurious. For, in sooth, this section, although apart from this it is elegantly written, is plainly a more modern forgery. There are many proofs of this…But a more fatal objection is, that this section, along with the other two at the end of it, is not contained in the Daniel received among the Jews.” (Julius Africanus, A Letter to Origen from Africanus About the History of Susanna)
“Question for Catholics. Do you Catholics believe what the Apocrypha teaches that putting the heart of a fish on hot coals drives away evil spirits (Tobit 6:8). Do you believe you should give money for the sins of the dead (Tobit 4:11; 2 Macc. 12:43) and do you believe that Nebachanezer was the King of the Assyrians (Judith 1:5)?”

Have fun!
Click to expand...
The kinds of arguments listed in the last paragraph do not help in the discussion of whether or not the DC’s are at the same canonical level as the rest of scripture. One can pull verse snippets from the OT and ask the same kinds of questions.

Or, it could be done in the reverse:
From the Prayer of Manasseh
[11] And now I bend the knee of my heart,
beseeching thee for thy kindness.
[12] I have sinned, O Lord, I have sinned,
and I know my transgressions.
[13] I earnestly beseech thee,
forgive me, O Lord, forgive me!
Do not destroy me with my transgressions!
Do not be angry with me for ever or lay up evil for me;
do not condemn me to the depths of the earth.
For thou, O Lord, art the God of those who repent,
[14] and in me thou wilt manifest thy goodness;
for, unworthy as I am, thou wilt save me in thy great mercy,
[15] and I will praise thee continually all the days of my life.
For all the host of heaven sings thy praise,
and thine is the glory for ever. Amen.
Click to expand...
Why isn’t this part of the canon? Would it be unchristian for a protestant (or Catholic) to pray this prayer?

Jon
 
Interesting that in the bit about Athanasius they leave out where he lists the 22 books, followed by:
But for greater exactness I add this also, writing of necessity; that there are other books besides these not indeed included in the [Jewish] Canon, but appointed by the Fathers to be read by those who newly join us, and who wish for instruction in the word of godliness. The Wisdom of Solomon, and the Wisdom of Sirach, and Esther, and Judith, and Tobit
Click to expand...
And we have several records of he himself quoting these. (I added [Jewish])

vivacatholic.wordpress.com/2007/10/23/athanasius-and-canon-of-old-testament/

Jerome, of course, was told to translate all the books, and complied.

Susanna could well have been a late addition to Daniel. It could be that it was a bit of oral history. Or maybe it was an unrelated story. Who knows. As far as I know, the Church doesn’t make a claim.
 
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