CARM

[Tony9712262]

IHeartThomasAquinas:

I’ve been on their site before. They call themselves a “research” ministry…yet they don’t provide all truth. For example, they have quotations of the Early Church Fathers, speaking about the Holy Trinity…yet they attack the Catholic Church for believing in the true body, blood soul and divinity of Christ in the Eucharist. They absolutely did not reference one Early Church father, speaking about how the Eucharist is the true body and true blood of Jesus. It is sad that I have seen uneducated ex-Catholics on myspace.com who have converted to Evangelicalism and Fundamentalism, because of CARM.

 

[Shannon9791]

Curiosity got the better of me, so I went on over to their board for a little light reading. What I saw a lot of was “tastes great, less filling” debate. Even some of the Catholics were dragged down into that kind of mess. When a Catholic would actually throw Scripture around, they were told by several different posters “that’s just how you’ve been told to interpret that scripture” and dismissed. I don’t see that it’s edifying to partake in that nonsense. I have no problem debating, and I feel that it’s a good tool for learning, but getting into an “I know you are, but what am I?” argument doesn’t teach anyone anything new.

 

[musicality]

Curiosity got the better of me, so I went on over to their board for a little light reading. What I saw a lot of was “tastes great, less filling” debate. Even some of the Catholics were dragged down into that kind of mess. When a Catholic would actually throw Scripture around, they were told by several different posters “that’s just how you’ve been told to interpret that scripture” and dismissed. I don’t see that it’s edifying to partake in that nonsense. I have no problem debating, and I feel that it’s a good tool for learning, but getting into an “I know you are, but what am I?” argument doesn’t teach anyone anything new.

Agreed. Many attacks become personal and directed at the poster’s denomination rather than the content of the post.
Sometimes the chat is a little better.

I go there almost solely to see what sorts of arguments Protestants use to support their beliefs so that I can more effectively defend my own.

 

[dianaiad]

I was wondering if anyone else has had experience with CARM material and people who reference it and what their thoughts are on CARM?

They wouldn’t allow me to join thier conversations at all unless I lie about my religious affiliation. Their articles on Mormonism are so full of misinformation and are so utterly false to fact as to describe a religion I, a fifth generation Mormon of 60 years, don’t recognize.

Since I do not believe that a group that would so vilify my own faith, and be willing to distribute outright inaccurate information about it would be likely to treat any other faith to which they are opposed any more honestly, I figure that CARM is a site best avoided by anybody who wants the truth about any group that they dislike.

Their venom is, while not quite at the level of the black mamba, certainly qualifies at Mojave Green level.

 

[JohnnyReb]

That place is a cesspool. I posted there for several years from 2001-2008, off and on. The forums are very much lacking in charity. The non Catholics always pat themselves on the back and declare themselves winners of every debate, even if when they get their a**es handed to them. Its rediculous. When Catholic claims cannot be refuted, they are mocked and made fun of.

 

[wisdomseeker]

are they considered in teh category of invincible ignorance? i wonder.

 

[coolduude]

are they considered in teh category of invincible ignorance? i wonder.

Good question. I would venture to say no, though. Their ignorance could easily be conquered, if only the opened their eyes and listened with their ears.

 

[ItsDarts]

OMG (gosh)!!! I knew there was a reason why I haven’t posted here in AGES, its because you are all whiners.!!! Now before you all flame me or remove my post, yes, I am an atheist. I am allowed here, right? If not then I suspect my post and membership will be removed shortly. If I am allowed here, as the mormons seem to be allowed here, then let me say this…

There is a REASON ( a term lost by most theists in general) that CARM exists. Its to defend their PROTESTANT faith. Of course their arguments are going to disagree with the Catholic Faith, what did you expect? This entire thread has been here for over a year and there is only 2 pages of ummmm “debate”??? No, there is no debate here. There is only… OMG they are wrong because I’m Catholic" type comments here. Not one of you has actually defended your faith (not that you CAN to an atheist). Instead of sharing your misery in the heretical musings of CARM, why not pick a topic of contention and actually arguing it here? Do you all fall behind the scapegoat of the Pope is infallible so he must be right???

This goes beyond any “reason” you claim to have to believe in your particular faith, this is just plain “OMG, I can’t believe they said that, they must be wrong” thread. Grow a pair and defend your faith or grow out of it!

 

[coolduude]

OMG (gosh)!!! I knew there was a reason why I haven’t posted here in AGES, its because you are all whiners.!!! Now before you all flame me or remove my post, yes, I am an atheist. I am allowed here, right? If not then I suspect my post and membership will be removed shortly. If I am allowed here, as the mormons seem to be allowed here, then let me say this…

There is a REASON ( a term lost by most theists in general) that CARM exists. Its to defend their PROTESTANT faith. Of course their arguments are going to disagree with the Catholic Faith, what did you expect? This entire thread has been here for over a year and there is only 2 pages of ummmm “debate”??? No, there is no debate here. There is only… OMG they are wrong because I’m Catholic" type comments here. Not one of you has actually defended your faith (not that you CAN to an atheist). Instead of sharing your misery in the heretical musings of CARM, why not pick a topic of contention and actually arguing it here? Do you all fall behind the scapegoat of the Pope is infallible so he must be right???

This goes beyond any “reason” you claim to have to believe in your particular faith, this is just plain “OMG, I can’t believe they said that, they must be wrong” thread. Grow a pair and defend your faith or grow out of it!

I honestly can’t tell if this is a serious post or a joke. It’s that bad (well, good if it’s a joke )

 

[ItsDarts]

I honestly can’t tell if this is a serious post or a joke. It’s that bad (well, good if it’s a joke )

Have you read the thread? Do you have an argument against CARM? Present it!!. Otherwise, this isn’t a joke post. Show me one argument (which I admit I may have missed in this thread) that CARM makes that anyone here has defended. (checking grammar and spelling) yes I think I’ve made my point with all seriousness.

 

[ItsDarts]

So please enlighten me if “infallibility” has some other meaning than “infallibility”.

Two, I disagree with Protestants certainly but I do not go around saying they are worshipping the anti-Christ or are pagans as it would be manifestly idiotic to say such things.

Agreed, So your argument against CARM is their rhetoric? Or is it that you think their interpretation is not your interpretation? Please enlighten us as to why you think CARM is wrong. Examples would be helpful.

Three atheists are obviously allowed here so long as they abide by forum rules - in fact there are many atheists who are worthwhile posters here.

Hmmm ok, So far I haven’t had an infraction (in 5 or 6 total posts) so I must be a worthwhile poster. Thanks

Is there any certain argument you find incorrect and that you can defend against CARM (with references of course)? Or can you point out any CARM argument that isn’t directly referenced in the bible? Oh wait, I guess we should decide on who’s bible is the “correct” bible first, huh? So let’s start there…

Why is your bible any more correct than the Protestant Bible? The Mormon Bible? Or should I suspect you will bail here and ask me to find or start another thread? (because this one has been here for well over a year and only gained 2 pages of commiserating?)

 

[dianaiad]

Have you read the thread? Do you have an argument against CARM? Present it!!. Otherwise, this isn’t a joke post. Show me one argument (which I admit I may have missed in this thread) that CARM makes that anyone here has defended. (checking grammar and spelling) yes I think I’ve made my point with all seriousness.

OK…

You began with noting that you are allowed to post here, like Mormons are allowed to post here. Here is a fact for you: I was not allowed to post on CARM because I am LDS, and thus ‘not Christian.’

The fact is, CARM is not an apologetics site, as in ‘defending their faith.’ or "defending protestantisim.’ In fact, CARM is the last place on earth one could go to get any information about what the folks there actually believe to be true…unless it is true that they define themselves entirely by who they aren’t. The vast majority of articles and debates over there are attacks upon someone else’s belief system, not explanations of their own, and I’ve never been impressed by a belief system that defines itself by mine; that is, they tell me what I believe (erroniously), tell me that I’m going to hell because I believe that, and that they don’t believe that and therefore they are going to heaven.

(shrug)

And you need to get better aquainted with this forum before you start claiming that nobody debates beliefs on it.

 

[dianaiad]

So please enlighten me if “infallibility” has some other meaning than “infallibility”. Agreed, So your argument against CARM is their rhetoric? Or is it that you think their interpretation is not your interpretation? Please enlighten us as to why you think CARM is wrong. Examples would be helpful. Hmmm ok, So far I haven’t had an infraction (in 5 or 6 total posts) so I must be a worthwhile poster. Thanks

Don’t get excited. I didn’t get an infraction until I was over 3,000 posts in. The moderators here can be very patient.

Is there any certain argument you find incorrect and that you can defend against CARM (with references of course)? Or can you point out any CARM argument that isn’t directly referenced in the bible? Oh wait, I guess we should decide on who’s bible is the “correct” bible first, huh? So let’s start there…

Why is your bible any more correct than the Protestant Bible? The Mormon Bible?

Actually, the “Mormon bible” is the same as the bible used by most Protestants. We publish the KJV with cross referencing to other works that we also accept as scripture, but we have no problem with using other translations. If you are going to get picky, and insist upon specifics, then you are going to need to abide by the standards you insist upon.

Or should I suspect you will bail here and ask me to find or start another thread? (because this one has been here for well over a year and only gained 2 pages of commiserating?)

That’s quite a chip on your shoulder, there, sir. Not to mention that you have a very different calendar from the one I use. It’s still 2010, as far as I am aware, isn’t it?

 

[ItsDarts]

OK…

You began with noting that you are allowed to post here, like Mormons are allowed to post here. Here is a fact for you: I was not allowed to post on CARM because I am LDS, and thus ‘not Christian.’

First, thank you for your reply, and yes my Mormon reference was in response to one of your posts. However, I disagree with your claim… Here are the CARM Rules to enter the forums…

  			 			 					 					**Forum Rules**

Registration to this forum is free! We do insist that you abide by the rules and policies detailed below. If you agree to the terms, please check the ‘I agree’ checkbox and press the ‘Proceed…’ button below. If you would like to cancel the registration, click here to return to the forums index.
Although the administrators and moderators of CARM, Christian Discussion Forums will attempt to keep all objectionable messages off this site, it is impossible for us to review all messages. All messages express the views of the author, and neither the owners of CARM, Christian Discussion Forums, nor vBulletin Solutions, Inc. (developers of vBulletin) will be held responsible for the content of any message.
By agreeing to these rules, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-oriented, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws.
The owners of CARM, Christian Discussion Forums reserve the right to remove, edit, move or close any content item for any reason.

I know this because I just joined their forum and not once was I asked to post my affiliation. So if you were banned, is it possible you violated one of their rules? Did you post “something objectionable”?

The fact is, CARM is not an apologetics site, as in ‘defending their faith.’ or "defending protestantisim.’ In fact, CARM is the last place on earth one could go to get any information about what the folks there actually believe to be true…unless it is true that they define themselves entirely by who they aren’t.

Thier site is the “Reference” site of most Protestant arguments on any other debate board out there, including most atheist debate boards, so I have to disagree with this statement. Again, I understand that they do not agree with your faith, but neither do the Catholics by any means. Sure, this board may be tolerant (more tolerant?) of your views, but how is that any consolation?

The vast majority of articles and debates over there are attacks upon someone else’s belief system, not explanations of their own, and I’ve never been impressed by a belief system that defines itself by mine; that is, they tell me what I believe (erroniously), tell me that I’m going to hell because I believe that, and that they don’t believe that and therefore they are going to heaven.

when it comes right down to it, how is that different than ANY monotheistic belief system? Sure, you may be tolerant of other Christian sects, the fact is your faith disagrees with other Christian faiths and you all secretly believe the other is going to hell.

{quote](shrug)

And you need to get better aquainted with this forum before you start claiming that nobody debates beliefs on it.

You may be right here. After only 5 or 6 post, AND being an atheist (meaning I lack belief in all other gods including yours) I should watch my P’s & Q’s because… why? Its not like I haven’t debated before, infact I have several thousand posts without ever being kicked out on many of the popular debate forums and I always use the same screen name, PM me if you’d like references to other forums I belong to. I realize that many forums don’t like public posting of other forum names within a post as they consider it spamming, hence, PM me if you doubt me. BTW, I’m now a member of the CARM forum, so yes, you CAN join, time will tell if I get kicked out of that forum for breaking any rules.

 

[CatholicGuyNY]

OK…

You began with noting that you are allowed to post here, like Mormons are allowed to post here. Here is a fact for you: I was not allowed to post on CARM because I am LDS, and thus ‘not Christian.’

This isn’t correct. Perhaps you’re thinking about Baptist Board. At CARM, self-identified Catholics, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, Christadelphians, etc. are very much allowed to register and post. A quick look at the Mormonism forum there shows that this is true. In contrast, the Baptist Board doesn’t allow Catholics, Mormons, etc. to register.

 

[dianaiad]

First, thank you for your reply, and yes my Mormon reference was in response to one of your posts. However, I disagree with your claim… Here are the CARM Rules to enter the forums…

I know this because I just joined their forum and not once was I asked to post my affiliation. So if you were banned, is it possible you violated one of their rules? Did you post “something objectionable”?

I was not allowed to post anything at all, objectionable or not. I had a problem with the rule that said that Mormons had to admit that they were not Christian in order to post. In other words, I couldn’t post unless I lied about my religious affiliation. Please take a look at their rules about using avatars.

Thier site is the “Reference” site of most Protestant arguments on any other debate board out there, including most atheist debate boards, so I have to disagree with this statement. Again, I understand that they do not agree with your faith, but neither do the Catholics by any means. Sure, this board may be tolerant (more tolerant?) of your views, but how is that any consolation? when it comes right down to it, how is that different than ANY monotheistic belief system? Sure, you may be tolerant of other Christian sects, the fact is your faith disagrees with other Christian faiths and you all secretly believe the other is going to hell.

{quote](shrug)

Actually, no…we Mormon types do NOT believe that everybody but us is going to hell. Indeed, one of the problems everybody seems to have with us is that we believe most everybody is going to a heaven.

You may be right here. After only 5 or 6 post, AND being an atheist (meaning I lack belief in all other gods including yours) I should watch my P’s & Q’s because… why? Its not like I haven’t debated before, infact I have several thousand posts without ever being kicked out on many of the popular debate forums and I always use the same screen name, PM me if you’d like references to other forums I belong to. I realize that many forums don’t like public posting of other forum names within a post as they consider it spamming, hence, PM me if you doubt me. BTW, I’m now a member of the CARM forum, so yes, you CAN join, time will tell if I get kicked out of that forum for breaking any rules.

I would have to break a rule of mine simply to join. I would have to lie.

 

[dianaiad]

This isn’t correct. Perhaps you’re thinking about Baptist Board. At CARM, self-identified Catholics, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, Christadelphians, etc. are very much allowed to register and post. A quick look at the Mormonism forum there shows that this is true. In contrast, the Baptist Board doesn’t allow Catholics, Mormons, etc. to register.

This is quite true. I was thinking more of the Baptist board, but I was also thinking about CARM. I looked quite carefully at the rules regarding the use of avatars on CARM…Christians may use the ‘Christian’ avatar, Jews may use the Jewish avatar, Mormons may use the “Mormon” avatar, but Mormons are explicitly prohibited from using the “Christian” avatar because doing so would be “Inappropriate.” Mormons are not Christian, you see, and registering to debate on CARM would be, to me, explicitly agreeing to that. Not to mention that any Mormon who did object that we are, in fact, Christians, would find him or herself in a world of banning.

Since I happen to believe that Mormons are very definitely Christian, and posting to a group that insists that I agree with them that I am not would mean I would have to lie, fugitaboutit.

Now I am quite aware that it is the official Catholic position that Mormonism isn’t a Christian religion. However, CAF isn’t making me agree with them about it in order to post!

 

[ItsDarts]

Don’t get excited. I didn’t get an infraction until I was over 3,000 posts in. The moderators here can be very patient.

Phew, I was worried…

Actually, the “Mormon bible” is the same as the bible used by most Protestants. We publish the KJV with cross referencing to other works that we also accept as scripture, but we have no problem with using other translations. If you are going to get picky, and insist upon specifics, then you are going to need to abide by the standards you insist upon.

So the Book Of Mormons at this link is not representative of your religion? And if it IS, do you subscribe to this?.… which states that your church is the “only true church” (just like most other religions)? Don’t misunderstand me, because to me, if you believe that dead people can come back to life after 3 days of death, then 40 days later, fly up to the sky, without a mechanical assistance, then to me, you are a Christian, no matter what flavor of dogma you believe.

That’s quite a chip on your shoulder, there, sir. Not to mention that you have a very different calendar from the one I use. It’s still 2010, as far as I am aware, isn’t it?

As often happens, and I’m sure you have seen this before, when subjects stray, either one of two things happen… it continues to go astray or someone bails and just asks to start a new thread.

As for the calendar reference, let me recheck the OP… I may have seen the OP’ers join date…and if so, my apologies… and yes I just checked and you are correct and I was wrong, I did see the OPers join date and assumed it to be the post date… my bad (now I’m embarrassed)

 

[ItsDarts]

I was not allowed to post anything at all, objectionable or not. I had a problem with the rule that said that Mormons had to admit that they were not Christian in order to post. In other words, I couldn’t post unless I lied about my religious affiliation. Please take a look at their rules about using avatars.

No offense, but you are making claims without reference. Shouldn’t you provide a link to the rules about avatars or rules that specifically singled out Mormons? Please don’t make us do the home work for your claims. I did the homework to show that atheists can join, so that means you should be able join/post. If you claim there are other rules that discriminate, isn’t it appropriate that you provide the support for your claim?

Actually, no…we Mormon types do NOT believe that everybody but us is going to hell. Indeed, one of the problems everybody seems to have with us is that we believe most everybody is going to a heaven.

This claim will need better support. You mean even Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and atheists? Because believe it or not, “Most” of the world is NOT Christian of any kind…Even if we include the Judeao/Christian/Muslim traditions as one group, that may only make up 1/2 the world at best, but this isn’t right because Jew and Muslims do not accept Jesus as god.

I would have to break a rule of mine simply to join. I would have to lie.

evidence?

 

[dianaiad]

Phew, I was worried…

So the Book Of Mormons at this link is not representative of your religion?

Moving the goalposts there, don’t you think?

The Book of Mormon is one of four of our “Standard Works,” which includes the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price and the Doctrine and Covenants. Each one of these works is considered to be scripture by us. We do not call the Bible anything but the Bible, and we do not call the Book of Mormon the Bible, either.

This might seem to you to be overly picky, but it’s not. After all, since we do believe in, and use, the Bible, then referring to the Book of Mormon as “the Mormon Bible” is very confusing. The Book of Mormon is not the Bible. The Bible is the Bible, and we believe in both.

And if it IS, do you subscribe to this?.… which states that your church is the “only true church” (just like most other religions)? Don’t misunderstand me, because to me, if you believe that dead people can come back to life after 3 days of death, then 40 days later, fly up to the sky, without a mechanical assistance, then to me, you are a Christian, no matter what flavor of dogma you believe.

Well, two things occur to me in response to this: first, yes, we do believe that we belong to the 'Only True Church." in that we believe we have the most truth. That does NOT, however, mean that only Mormons go to heaven. We believe in at least three of those, you see.

The second thing is…well, I know of Christians who have some problem with the idea of ‘dead people com[ing] back to life after 3 days of death, then 40 days later, fly up to the sky, without a mechanical assistance.’ That’s not, as far as I can tell from any definition of "Christian’ that encompasses all Christian thought, a requirement. What IS a requirement, and possibly the only requirement, is that one have a certain Jesus of Nazareth, called Christ, at the center of one’s religious and ethical belief system. I would add that it’s probably important to actually believe in His teachings as one thinks they actually are, and to, y’know, claim the name.

Other than that? (shrug)

“Christian” is not an imprimitur of salvation. It’s a religious belief classification. I’ve seen some very odd Christian beliefs that are, I think, pretty wild and ‘out there.’ (That means I don’t believe 'em). They are still “Christian.” They just aren’t RIGHT.

As often happens, and I’m sure you have seen this before, when subjects stray, either one of two things happen… it continues to go astray or someone bails and just asks to start a new thread.

As for the calendar reference, let me recheck the OP… I may have seen the OP’ers join date…and if so, my apologies… and yes I just checked and you are correct and I was wrong, I did see the OPers join date and assumed it to be the post date… my bad (now I’m embarrassed)

It’s OK…I really was thinking about both the Baptists and CARM, and throwing them both in the same trashcan.