Carmelite Mysticism, Raja Yoga, Buddhist Contemplation

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So I have a couple of questions for you:

A) Did you read all three of BR’s books? I did. And if you did, from what standpoint (don’t jump to a conclusion here) did you interpret them?

B) Are you an accomplished contemplative who has not only book learning (having at least read, if not practiced all of the titles you recommend) but some mystical and, more importantly, contemplative experience?
Have to concur with these and the recomendation of Bernadette Roberts for those who are ready for such considerations. I really don’'t believe that much more than a very small number of Catholics might be ready to competently engage her work and analysis. As someon else said, her work, to that poster, was very very questionable. And that is why: lack of preparation. So I think, Micorizea, you ought not have posted that recommendation publicly. It has appeared to have backfired even for the person it was specifically intended. I hope you learn something from this! 🙂
 
So we don’t have to say those prayers out loud and we don’t have to use a rosary? WHAT?!?! Why hasn’t anyone told me that before? Mary would you explain what vocal prayer is in Catholic tradition, since it is not vocalizing?
 
It’s about the mysteries, the magic indulgences of the confraternity, the secrets, and the wonderful promises!!! All I’m saying is that why not just remember the mysteries mentally, recite the creed mentally, pray the our father mentally? Jesus taught us to pray the Our Father, not the Hail Mary, so I like that better, so I guess I’m biased.

Hindus and Buddhist prayed with beads long before Christ was born, and I stand by my reasons. Why does it matter if a thread gets banned? Do I get banned too? 🤷
No no no! Not banned. I’m saying that when a thread goes off kilter sometimes the mods just close the thread, that’s all. It was a friendly warning. You don’t get banned for that. 😃

Sorry about the misunderstanding.
 
So we don’t have to say those prayers out loud and we don’t have to use a rosary? WHAT?!?! Why hasn’t anyone told me that before? Mary would you explain what vocal prayer is in Catholic tradition, since it is not vocalizing?
Learning has occurred (just kidding). 😉 It’s a private devotion. I say it to myself. In fact, if I lose count I add another Hail Mary (better too much than too little IMO).

Now, lot’s of people say it in groups out loud and take turns with the decades. I got handed a microphone on the bus going to the March for Life. I feel uncomfortable doing this (I always get a tickle in my throat and cough :o ).

I prefer to say it silently to myself, ideally at Adoration. Same goes for the Devine Mercy Chaplet.

Pax†
 
So we don’t have to say those prayers out loud and we don’t have to use a rosary? WHAT?!?! Why hasn’t anyone told me that before? Mary would you explain what vocal prayer is in Catholic tradition, since it is not vocalizing?
Prayer of Quiet, oh… I forget the Greek word for this which would give you the other sights to Eastern and Western thinking. Translates to contemplative in Latin I “think”. I’ve been known to be wrong once in a Blue Moon.

I never use the beads either. The mechanical aspect is removed by contemplating/meditating on the Mysterys of the Gospel. The decades continue to focus one on the specific Mystery, Cross, Transfiguration etc.

In many ways the contemplation/meditation reminds me of the Divine Office in that both have a transending ability. I hear some focus on a spot on the wall and are able to do this. I don’t know. I suppose I’m not that spiritually gifted as of yet, I suppose I shall have to continue and practice, All the above does it for me though. 👍

However you are praying the Divine Office now or liturgy of the hours? I do believe your fine right there. 🤷
 
I was praying Liturgy of the hours, but I gave it away yesterday to the library, so I need something new.
 
Aren’t those just electronic versions of the same thing I was talking about, the liturgy of the hours?
 
Yes. Since you got rid of yours I thought those sites would help until you bought a new one.
 
So we don’t have to say those prayers out loud and we don’t have to use a rosary? WHAT?!?! Why hasn’t anyone told me that before? Mary would you explain what vocal prayer is in Catholic tradition, since it is not vocalizing?
Hi,

I found this on the site linked below the paragraph:
A novena is a formalized vocal prayer extended over a specific amount of time. Remember, vocal prayer is the kind of prayer where we use other people’s words to address God and to lift our hearts and minds to him. The “Our Father” is a vocal prayer, for example. St. Francis of Assisi’s famous “Make me an instrument of your peace…” prayer is a vocal prayer. You don’t have to say these prayers out loud to make them “vocal,” rather, you just have to give “voice” to (“voice” and “vocal” both come from the same Latin root: voco, vocare, which means to speak out or to call) the words of the prayer. We can recite the words of a vocal prayer in the silence of our hearts, or audibly. In either case, however, vocal prayers give us a channel for the desires and thoughts of our souls.
Read more: rcspiritualdirection.com/blog/tags/vocal-prayer#ixzz1rEHWMnbX
You can check out the Catechism explanations too. Basically, vocal prayers employ words, but these words don’t directly come from our hearts and minds- They are formulaic. In order to make them “yours” and more meaningful to you, you have to internalize them and think about the words and the person you are speaking to and what those lines are really saying to this person and try to “mean” them as you say them, as if the words were your very own.

In fact, St. Teresa of Avila used to say that to do your meditation when it is difficult to do mental prayer, all you need to do is to pray the “Our Father” very slowly, this way- And it transforms into a beautiful meditation/mental prayer and eventually can lead to contemplation! It’s such an easy, beautiful and profound way to pray, per testimony of these great Saints and the Church.

That’s why I said before that the Rosary can be difficult because you want to pray the vocal prayers meaningfully this way and at the same time, focus on the mystery- Trying to focus the mind on two things at once! At some point, though, you get your rhythm and one takes precedence over the other, the other becomes supportive of the one. I remember reading somewhere that if you find the meditation on the mysteries impossible/too difficult (sometimes it can happen), that you can simply do like st. Teresa of Avila and focus and pray the vocal prayers meaningfully- The Rosary will still be meaningful.

The main thing is to start and try to keep the awareness of the presence of the person you are addressing right in that room with you. So when you start, be first aware that with you in that room, invisible to your mind, but fully there and looking at you, attending to you, seeing through all your being, mind, heart and soul, and fully loving and sustaining you, is the Blessed Trinity. Christ is also there with you in his full humanity. During Rosary, you remember that the Mother of God is fully right there before you, in all her glory and beauty and that she fully loves you and is listening to every word of love that you speak to her. When you say the prayers directly to that person (The Father, Christ, Mary, All the Trinity as in the Glory Be), if you say them in this awareness- that is already much, much more than vocal prayer.

Whenever I found it hard to be aware of God’s loving presence with me at prayer, know what I did? Something you see taught in "Introduction to Devout Life" by St. Francis de Sales- Remind myself and really, really see that God is **freely choosing to sustain me and keep me in existence right at this moment, just like he chose to create me when I was nothing- and that’s why I exist. That alone is love- God is loving me right now, in spite of how good/bad I’m acting- He’s looking at me and sustaining me in existence with love- right at this very moment! If he stopped looking at me with love, if he got “distracted” and momentarily “forgot” or turned his focus off me, I would vanish! Cease to exist! That always made me so happy as it was such a testimony to God’s unceasing loving attention to me ever since my conception. I think it was St. Teresa or St. John of the Cross or St. Francis de Sales who put it as "Attend to him who is already attending to you" or “Look at him who is already and always looking at you”. Also, something like: You are always in God’s presence- Now, bring him into your presence.

You know, Heresiarch, all this talk with you makes me a little sad, because I used to be able to do these things I write to you easily- Been having some difficulties in my life lately. Oh well, I hope you can understand the Rosary and other forms of vocal prayers better now and the richness they can bring to you if you pray them with attentiveness.
 
Thank you so much MaryBeloved! You honestly are so sweet. I think I need to get the part of being aware of the vocal prayers of the rosary, but ultimately focusing on the mysteries down, because I fluctuate, but you very clearly describe a lot that goes on inside myself during the prayers. I always feel like I’m not connecting with the prayers I’m saying though, at-least when I’m home. If I’m in a church or in the wilderness I feel in God’s presence much more easily, even without vocal prayer, I feel much more secure, so I begin to quiet down easily.
 
I was praying Liturgy of the hours, but I gave it away yesterday to the library, so I need something new.
What do you mean that you need something new? A new Liturgy of the Hours? The Litrugy of the Hours is the prayer of the Church. I don’t think you will find something “new” that can take its palce.
 
So we don’t have to say those prayers out loud and we don’t have to use a rosary? WHAT?!?! Why hasn’t anyone told me that before? Mary would you explain what vocal prayer is in Catholic tradition, since it is not vocalizing?
Here,

I am not sure I understand the quibble…we don’t know how to pray as we ought so that even our groans are prayers…and we should pray without ceasing so that our every day activity is one continuous prayer, vocal, with hands, without hands, without voice, with eyes, without eyes…and whatever you believe prayer to be…🙂
 
Thank you so much MaryBeloved! You honestly are so sweet. I think I need to get the part of being aware of the vocal prayers of the rosary, but ultimately focusing on the mysteries down, because I fluctuate, but you very clearly describe a lot that goes on inside myself during the prayers. I always feel like I’m not connecting with the prayers I’m saying though, at-least when I’m home. If I’m in a church or in the wilderness I feel in God’s presence much more easily, even without vocal prayer, I feel much more secure, so I begin to quiet down easily.
One thing that has helped me immensely is placing myself in the moment of a particular mystery. Look around, in detail. When the Angel appears to Mary, look at Mary’s face, the awe and the wonder, her humility. When the Holy Spirit descends upon Mary and the Apostles, hear the wind, see the tongues of fire. Make yourself present in the moment and it will really help you concentrate. To simply recite the mysteries and begin repeating the our Father and the Hail Marys will lead your mind to wander. That may happen at times anyway, but don’t let it disturb you. Just bring yourself back to the moment and continue.
 
Here,

I am not sure I understand the quibble…we don’t know how to pray as we ought so that even our groans are prayers…and we should pray without ceasing so that our every day activity is one continuous prayer, vocal, with hands, without hands, without voice, with eyes, without eyes…and whatever you believe prayer to be…🙂
There are many ways to pray and we should pray in many ways. I’m not sure it depends just upon what we believe prayer to be. At Mass we join with the Body of Christ, as a community. This is different from private prayer. Even within private prayer there are many ways to pray, all of them good; meditation, contemplation, vocal, etc. Our work can and should be a prayer. The rosary is a very specific way of praying which concentrates on mediation. Whether one speaks audibly or not is not the question. Meditating upon Christ’s life is the center of the prayer.
 
One thing that has helped me immensely is placing myself in the moment of a particular mystery. Look around, in detail. When the Angel appears to Mary, look at Mary’s face, the awe and the wonder, her humility. When the Holy Spirit descends upon Mary and the Apostles, hear the wind, see the tongues of fire. Make yourself present in the moment and it will really help you concentrate. To simply recite the mysteries and begin repeating the our Father and the Hail Marys will lead your mind to wander. That may happen at times anyway, but don’t let it disturb you. Just bring yourself back to the moment and continue.
i guess your imagination is very good, it has alway taken much concentration and ‘‘work’’ to do what you describ above. Or is there a way that makes it easy?
Ubenedictus
 
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