Carn: What about an atheistic argument why infanticide is wrong, was always wrong and will be always wrong?

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All societies and religions accept the killing of children in some circumstances. The Catholic church allows soldiers in a ‘just war’ to shell a village with the intent of killing the enemy even of they know children will certainly be killed as an unintended side-effect proportional with the ‘good’ of killing the enemy.
Please stay at topic. Topic is an atheistic argument against infanticide, that is valid, that was valid and that will be valid.
from wiki:
"Infanticide or infant homicide is the killing of a human infant. Neonaticide, a killing within 24 hours of a baby’s birth, is most commonly done by the mother whereas infanticide of baby more than one day old is more frequently committed by the father[1]

In many past societies, certain forms of infanticide were considered permissible. In some countries, female infanticide is more common than the killing of male offspring, due to sex-selective infanticide."

So infanticide is normaly commited by those, who in absence of infanticide would (have to) take care of the child (mother, father, tribe, community) and it is normally not connected with killing someone else, the infant is the sole victim.
As long as the enemy thinks they are fighting a just war, it’s ok for them too.
And you do not understand just war theory, further reason not to discuss it here.
But I am able to avoid the extremes of religious thought that lead to, for example, the Catholic belief that it is ok to remove a fallopian tube, killing the ectopic fetus inside it, but it is not ok to remove the fetus, leaving the tube, repaired, behind. Hundreds of millions of people in the past few decades have ceased to believe in the Christian God. Not many of us have become mass murderers.
Topicis neither abortion, nor the question whether the existance or non-existance of an atheist argument regarding the worngness of infanticide has any practical effects.
 
What have I done? :rolleyes:
And as it is impulse based, getting pregnant is not always well planned. Furthermore even if it is well planned, circumstances can change in 9 months. So at the time of birth it could be realized that this pregnancy was an error.
How on Earth could a pregnancy be an error? :confused:
For the offspring to support one, it must be the right number, with the right timing, under the right social cicumstances and of decent quality.
If for example its female and male would be preferable for supporting, discarding the female and get pregnant again soon is more efficient, than keeping the female alive, as it might prolong the time to the next pregnancy and it will cost resources not avaible for the hopefully next male child.
While there may be optimization in having a male over a female, or v.v, generally I would say male and female are fairly interchangeable. There is not much difference in the physical or mental abilities of the average male vs. the average female. The only reason one might need a female over a male or v.v. is if you need even more children, and lack one or the other to make a mating pair.

Even then, any new member of a community provides resources for this community, regardless of gender - at least, if this member is put to good use. (Not all resources come from conventional desk jobs, after all.)

So any offspring, if allowed to live, can be an advantage.
Or the social circumstances are such, that the long term prospects are reduced, e.g. pregnant although promised to some “good” husband and the quality of avaible husbands is reduced if someone knows about the child (therefore auctioning the child is not an option).
While there may be a quantity drop, I know of no quality drop in fiancées of already pregnant women. Why would there be if he is already resigned (or more likely attracted) to the knowledge that she is with child?
So on the individual level a lot of survival optimizing reasons for infanticide exist.
For the whole society infanticide is only a problem, if it happens to often. The romans build an empire, while infanticide was legal.
It may have survived under these conditions. But when Rome began to decay in the 300s and 400s, these practises continued at a time when Rome could not afford to lose a single life. The population of Rome herself dwindled to half of its highest population from the peak of the Empire to its fall due to infanticide and related practises (abortion and contraception).
No, survival instincts only work, in case of direct danger. In case of indirect or long term danger (e.g. smoking) survival instincts have reduced importance.
Interesting point. That would explain the population collapse Rome experienced during its fall - or the population collapse we will be experiencing around the world in 40 years’ time. Society, like man, does not change its ways until it begins to feel a pinch - nay, a strong grip - it cannot resolve with tonics, creams, and shortcuts.
If survival requires certain qualities, which can be identified at birth, infanticide is beneficial for survival, as the resources wasted on unfit off spring is reduced, this was the approach of Sparta.
Also a good point. I might mention, perhaps in vain, that even the weakest and most crippled contribute something to society: someone who needs others. That is, in economic terms, a demand sector. And there are some people who just need to be needed.
The resource investment between birth and productive age is big compared to the prior investment. So opting out of the deal suggested by the child (feed me and you can educate me into being your supporter later) can be rational.
But the payoff is much bigger. So while the cost can be quite high, the more you invest, the much more you get back. Many older people with large families that have grown up and had families of their own can attest to this. On the converse, those who have smaller or no families often end up having less support and end up having less by the ends of their lives. That is because people gain value over time (by virtue of what they contribute to society and to their parents). On the other hand, money and valuables lose value over time because they remain the same in an economy that never deflates.
Lets discuss infanticide only. While more and well raised children are good, for this prohibition of infanticide is not necessary, the romans objectively had enough sons to conquer the mediterran world, as the greeks had enough sonds 200 years prior to conquer persia.
Furthermore the need for “quality” children would indicate infanticide of handicapped children is preferable.
True; however, more children could have made the empire stronger, richer, and less prone to invasion by those nasty barbarians that sacked Rome. Also, since people don’t live forever, more children would have eventually been needed, anyway.

Quality is still a good argument, though. However, I still believe (and history has plenty of examples to back this up) that even physical and mental cripples can contribute value to society. Significantly less (in monetary terms) than normal people. But they contribute nonetheless, even just a sink for resources to be sold to. Demand is part of an economy, too.
 
Might makes right, but it doesn’t make moral truth.
No where in your original post did you say anything about ‘moral truth’. You only mentioned ‘I’ as “the standard of right and wrong”.
You didn’t define ‘I’.

You also said “…what i define as right and wrong is decided by my standards”.

You didn’t say whay those standards are. All we know is that they belong to someone who describes themself as ‘I’.

And from those non-described standards, you decree that infanticide is ‘wrong’.

The only ‘wrongness’ of infanticide in your decrees is that they don’t emanate from the undefined standards of ‘I’, who is also undescribed.

Therefore, the ‘wrongness’ is an empty sub set of the empty sub set of the set ‘I’.
 
Afterthoughts:

therefore, by this postulation, it makes more sense to have more and well-raised children who can aid you when you are aged and less able to care for yourself. Abortion, contraception, fornication, and sodomy are all counterproductive to natural human survival, and indeed are the bane of some our most basic survival instincts.
From the bare point of view of basic survival, investing in feeble offspring is also counterproductive…
 
No where in your original post did you say anything about ‘moral truth’. You only mentioned ‘I’ as “the standard of right and wrong”.
You didn’t define ‘I’.

You also said “…what i define as right and wrong is decided by my standards”.

You didn’t say whay those standards are. All we know is that they belong to someone who describes themself as ‘I’.

And from those non-described standards, you decree that infanticide is ‘wrong’.

The only ‘wrongness’ of infanticide in your decrees is that they don’t emanate from the undefined standards of ‘I’, who is also undescribed.

Therefore, the ‘wrongness’ is an empty sub set of the empty sub set of the set ‘I’.
Okay Okay! I was just making a point that’s all.
 
If i was a women who was aware that objective moral values don’t exist, then my choosing to give birth to new life is purely dependent on whether or not i see any emotional or utility-value in having the child; and my identifying a pregnancy as something which should be preserved to full term will be dependent on how “i” feel. If i feel that a baby will be a burden to my agenda, then i will not bestow any imaginary value on a pregnancy and will terminate “it” with out remorse. Since if my atheism reflects true reality, it is not true that i ought to value a pregnancy and bring it to full term or perceive the object growing inside of me as having any value apart from what i choose to imagine it as having. And the same is true also of a child that is born, and even a grown adult. There value is purely dependent upon my agenda.

Will having this new life make my life feel better in some way

That is the only meaningful question that a pregnant atheist can ask her self.

All the Christian can do is watch in horror.
Wow. You really are disengaged from your emotions if you suppose that a woman has the desire to bear and nurture a child for the sake of an ‘agenda’. I think you’ll find that intellectual considerations of what one ought to do come a very poor second to the very real, very powerful inclination that the majority of parents feel towards their children, especially if those children are wanted and planned. I don’t want children of my own, and even I understand this…
 
However you do need to believe in objective moral values (a transcendent moral law), otherwise the fact that you are watching in horror is based purely on the imaginary value you place on a pregnancy and not the true value that a thing has. No true horror is taking place; there is only a delusion that there is.
Why are you so committed to the idea that emotions are illusory? This would seem to indicate true nihilism - a belief that nothing in your own existence within the world can justify or even give any weight whatsoever to inclination or action; that you must look beyond what you perceive to find meaning.
 
Do you reject the just war theory? If so why?
What alternative do you suggest?
Centuries of believers i the theory blessing opposing troops should be a good enough indication of its futility.
Human failings do not invalidate a moral principle.
Have the Bishops of any country ever plainly stated that a particular war their nation was involved in to be unjust.
Human failings do not invalidate a moral principle.
On what basis?
I assess good and bad for society on the basis of what maximises happiness and freedom (including democracy)

Whose happiness and whose freedom?
When do you think abortion is justified?
well, certainly in the case of ectopic pregnancies threatening the life of the mother.

In no other cases?
Source of information?
39.7% of statistics are made up and this has been one of them. It is just a guess based on the population of the formerly Christian world, and the decline in Church affiliation and attendance.

A guess is an unsound basis for a rational argument. Even if it were true what would it prove?
Most people don’t have the opportunity! There have however be mass murders of unborn children.
*…

I think you will make more progress if you who talk of ‘mass murder’ lose their audience.

I believe in calling a spade a spade. What Catholics - or any one else - does not alter the reality that conception normally results in the birth of a child… and that millions of children have not been born due to the inconvenience of having to look after them and bring them up…
I am pretty confident I would refrain from mass murder if given the opportunity, but I will continue to support strong gun control in case I am wrong!
Thereby adding to the number of gun-toting individuals… 😉
 
Why are you so committed to the idea that emotions are illusory? This would seem to indicate true nihilism - a belief that nothing in your own existence within the world can justify or even give any weight whatsoever to inclination or action; that you must look beyond what you perceive to find meaning.
I am not committed to nihilism. I am a Catholic. But I am commited to the idea that if metaphysical naturalism is “true” then emotions are illusory; hence absolute nihilism. I am committed because its true that such is the consequences of rational atheism, as opposed to the weak display of emotionalism that you present in your defense. I have respect for the atheism of Nietzsche, but even he was too scared to take it all the way, and so these guys end up creating the idea of a superman. But I don’t have any intellectual respect New Atheism.

that nothing in your own existence within the world can rationally justify or even give any rational weight whatsoever to inclination or action. And therefore suicide is the only escape from irrationality.”
 
Correction:

What Catholics - or any one else - believe does not alter the reality that conception normally results in the birth of a child… and that millions of children have not been born due solely to the anticipated inconvenience of having to look after them and bring them up…
 
Wow. You really are disengaged from your emotions if you suppose that a woman has the desire to bear and nurture a child for the sake of an ‘agenda’. I think you’ll find that intellectual considerations of what one ought to do come a very poor second to the very real, very powerful inclination that the majority of parents feel towards their children
I think there is a risk here of approaching the terriroty of the “Dime Store Freud” (explained here youtu.be/Xe8KzXEsT04?t=7m29s ) if we don’t include some (name removed by moderator)ut from some one that has actually had to make a decision on this. So I’m trying to make a contribution that includes such information. I’ve got immediate access to one such person who found out early own that her unborn daughter had trisomy-13 and would never be capable of developing mentally fully. She made the decision and the open statement that she was not going to terminate her pregnancy. I could not remember what the reason was that she provided for this decision, so I just called her.

She said that she was encourage by friends, her husband’s family, and others to abort the pregnancy. But she knew there were health risks associated with aborting the child and that the child had a low chance of survival anyway and that there was a chance her daughter would self abort. If her child did survive birth then chances were that she would not survive for more than a year. I asked her for her permission to share these reasons in this forum and once she heard it was a philosophy forum she added that she’s just not a baby killer anyway and that she would opt to give a child up for adoption if she ever found herself with an unwanted pregnancy.

I know another person that did decide to terminate the third time she was pregnant. I can’t ask her about what drove her decision right now because she’s out seeing a movie with two of her children (though I may be meeting with her later tonight). I plan to ask her what her reasoning/thoughts were. She had told me what her reason was years ago, but I can’t remember what it. The pregnancy was terminated with ru486 (it was terminated early on).

A third person of which I know that did have a child aborted did it because she said she had reason to believe the guy by which she got pregnancy was actually gay. I can’t make complete sense of her reasoning there.

All three of these ladies are Christian, but are of no specific denomination. Only the first lady made mention to something that I can identify as a moral consideration. The husband of the first lady I mentioned and his family are Catholic. This is a pretty small “data set” so I’m not inclined to draw strong conclusions from it.
 
All three of these ladies are Christian, but are of no specific denomination. Only the first lady made mention to something that I can identify as a moral consideration. The husband of the first lady I mentioned and his family are Catholic. This is a pretty small “data set” so I’m not inclined to draw strong conclusions from it.
If you lived in the UK you could be pretty sure that in many cases of abortion the question of “right” or “wrong” doesn’t even arise - especially when it is teenagers who are pregnant …
 
If you lived in the UK you could be pretty sure that in many cases of abortion the question of “right” or “wrong” doesn’t even arise - especially when it is teenagers who are pregnant …
Are you in London:eek:?
 
A third person of which I know that did have a child aborted did it because she said she had reason to believe the guy by which she got pregnancy was actually gay. I can’t make complete sense of her reasoning there.
She probably thought the child would be infected with HIV…
 
How on Earth could a pregnancy be an error? :confused:
For the same reason any long term plan fails - circumstances change. Today it might seem a good idea to plant seeds, build cars, lend the greek government money,get pregnant but in 9 months circumstances might have changed so that in retrospect the decision was wrong and should be corrected as far as possible. (At least assuming its done for some agenda or personal gain.)
While there may be optimization in having a male over a female, or v.v, generally I would say male and female are fairly interchangeable.
That is not true. Well over 90% of military combat forces and of the violent criminals of the world are men. Thats not social upbringing, its just biological if senseless and brutal violence is required, men are mentally and physically better suited for the task.
While there may be a quantity drop, I know of no quality drop in fiancées of already pregnant women. Why would there be if he is already resigned (or more likely attracted) to the knowledge that she is with child?
If she realizes during pregnancy, she could have a better man, if she has no child, infanticide would serve her goal. Some men prefer women, who do not have children from other men. Some want untouched women, pregnancies can be hidden, but not a child.
But when Rome began to decay in the 300s and 400s, these practises continued at a time when Rome could not afford to lose a single life. The population of Rome herself dwindled to half of its highest population from the peak of the Empire to its fall due to infanticide and related practises (abortion and contraception).
This argument could be valid, if preservation of society would be a goal one should strive for.

But it is no absolute, because it assumes that preservation of society is best achieved by prohibiting infanticide. That might be true in some circumstances and might be wrong in other. It certainly would be up for debate and depend on the newest research results of social sciences.
Also a good point. I might mention, perhaps in vain, that even the weakest and most crippled contribute something to society: someone who needs others. That is, in economic terms, a demand sector. And there are some people who just need to be needed.
Even if true,someone could argue, that half the number of crippled is enough for this purpose and therefore half of infants be discarded is no problem for society. That might be true or wrong depending on circumstances.
Furthermore in some circumstances the more charitable inclination a society might experience this way, could be harmful. The US would have won 10 years ago in afghanistan if they had a similar attitude regarding resistance as the mongols had. Charity might sap a societies will, to kill enemies or their relatives, friends, supporters or children.

I think most of your arguments are valid in so far, as they might be able to establish a prohibition of infanticide under specific circumstances.
 
Where do you think it came from Sair?
Prejudice and misinformation, most likely. Homosexuality does not in itself lead to HIV infection - careless sexual practices can result in infection for anyone, regardless of sexuality. In any case, unless the mother was already infected, it’s highly unlikely that the child resulting from sex with a gay man would have HIV.

Furthermore, since the thread is dealing with infanticide, HIV does not constitute a death sentence - these days it can be controlled such that quality of life is still very much possible. Having said that, it’s difficult to imagine how one might justify killing the aforementioned infant fathered by a gay man, simply on the ignorant assumption that it might be infected with HIV. Abortion on those grounds is also dubious, unless the mother had other reasons for not being able to carry the pregnancy to term.
 
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