Carthusians...

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mgy100

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Does anyone know if you can get the movie The Great Silence or whatever it is called about the Carthusians?
Does anyone know if their Mass is different than the current mass? I know historically it was different, but did they change with everyone else?
 
The Cartusian Rite of mass has been retained as they did not take up the Novus Ordo when asked to do so by Paul VI unlike the Dominicans, Franciscians, Carmelites and other Latin Rites of mass that had existed along side the Tridentine Rite.
 
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mosher:
The Cartusian Rite of mass has been retained as they did not take up the Novus Ordo when asked to do so by Paul VI unlike the Dominicans, Franciscians, Carmelites and other Latin Rites of mass that had existed along side the Tridentine Rite.
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Where did you hear that? The Carthusians celebrate the Mass of Paul VI, although with small differences permitted because of their ancient privilege. The Rev. Prior of the Charterhouse of the Transfiguration celebrated Mass in their Guest House last summer (2004) for a small group of which I was a part. It was entirely recognizable as the Mass of Paul VI.
 
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mercygate:
Where did you hear that? The Carthusians celebrate the Mass of Paul VI, although with small differences permitted because of their ancient privilege. The Rev. Prior of the Charterhouse of the Transfiguration celebrated Mass in their Guest House last summer (2004) for a small group of which I was a part. It was entirely recognizable as the Mass of Paul VI.
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Perhaps at a Guest House this is done. However, they were the only religious order to turn down the request of Paul VI. If something has changed from then to now it is very unfortunate. The information provided was during my liturgy course at the Seminary by my professor who’s doctoral dicertation in on the differnt forms of latin liturgy with emphasis on the Mozarabic Rite.
 
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mosher:
Perhaps at a Guest House this is done. However, they were the only religious order to turn down the request of Paul VI. If something has changed from then to now it is very unfortunate. The information provided was during my liturgy course at the Seminary by my professor who’s doctoral dicertation in on the differnt forms of latin liturgy with emphasis on the Mozarabic Rite.
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Both Mass and the Office are celebrated in the vernacular in the Charterhouses today. This is actually something I know about . . . The switch did cause an earthquake in the Charterhouses around the world, and a few hardliners left the Order . . .
 
Although I realize it ignores the main focus of the thread, i.e. Carthusians and the documentary about them, please permit me to indulge my curiosity, as I was recently wondering about the privileged derivative rites of the orders.

From the above posts I take it that none of the rites allowed by Pius V survived the Pauline Missal (which it seems has at last, woefully, done in the last of the holdout “ancient” rites). Does this mean that it is no longer possible to speak of a Dominican/Franciscan/etc. rite? Or have the orders all drawn up derivative rites based on the Pauline Mass that are now properly spoken of as the rite of their respective communities?

Mosher, could you point me toward some good reading (especially online - I don’t exactly have access to a research library) on the history surrounding Paul VI’s Mass and how and when the various orders with their own rites accepted it?
 
Andreas Hofer:
Although I realize it ignores the main focus of the thread, i.e. Carthusians and the documentary about them, please permit me to indulge my curiosity, as I was recently wondering about the privileged derivative rites of the orders.

From the above posts I take it that none of the rites allowed by Pius V survived the Pauline Missal (which it seems has at last, woefully, done in the last of the holdout “ancient” rites). Does this mean that it is no longer possible to speak of a Dominican/Franciscan/etc. rite? Or have the orders all drawn up derivative rites based on the Pauline Mass that are now properly spoken of as the rite of their respective communities?

Mosher, could you point me toward some good reading (especially online - I don’t exactly have access to a research library) on the history surrounding Paul VI’s Mass and how and when the various orders with their own rites accepted it?
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The rites of religious orders are still allowed and some are still practiced, particularly the Dominican Rite. We have one in Portland at Holy Rosary Parish, which is staffed by the Dominicans, every once in awhile, particuarly for major saints feast days and Dominican saints days.
 
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mercygate:
Both Mass and the Office are celebrated in the vernacular in the Charterhouses today. This is actually something I know about . . . The switch did cause an earthquake in the Charterhouses around the world, and a few hardliners left the Order . . .
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Could you please tell me when this change to the vernacular occured?

Thank you.
 
It was entirely recognizable as the Mass of Paul VI.
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Actually, the Carthusian Rite was always pretty much like the Mass of Paul VI. Perhaps it was celebrated in Latin…but because of the great austerity of that Order, their mass was always much more simple and less “sumptuous” so to speak. In fact, the Novus Ordo (as well as many protestant groups) borrowed heavily from the Carthusian mass when trying to make a humbler liturgy.
 
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batteddy:
Actually, the Carthusian Rite was always pretty much like the Mass of Paul VI. Perhaps it was celebrated in Latin…but because of the great austerity of that Order, their mass was always much more simple and less “sumptuous” so to speak. In fact, the Novus Ordo (as well as many protestant groups) borrowed heavily from the Carthusian mass when trying to make a humbler liturgy.
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I knew they had their own rite, but I did’nt know that the new order took from them.
 
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mercygate:
In the 1970s.

I thought you were refering to this. That’s why I hesitated responding. In the late 1980s - early 1990s a friend of mine made several vocational retreats (the only kind permitted) at the Charterhouse of the Transfiguration in Vermont. He eventually entered the order as a novice there. Alas he - like 80% of novices - did’nt make it. But he offered this insight:

Mass: Paul VI in Latin, readings in English, prostration at elevation, reception both species on knees in semi-circle around snone altar.

Communal Office (including 2-3 hour midnight Matins): Latin chant from giant print books shared by two monks. Readings from Fathers, etc. in English.

Office in Cell (including Little Office) in English silently.
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There is an active discussion about the preservation of the Carthusian rite going on on the Carthusian forum right now.

A former Carthusian I know told me that the vernacular is now used in the Charterhouses (he entered in 1974 and left in 1994).

The Mass I attended in Vermont was very like the Mass of Paul VI, with minor deviations, and it was conducted in English, as were the offices attended by the men in our group.

The discusson on the Carthusian forum, however, is exulting in the great good fortune that the Carthusian rite more or less survived the excavation of the Second Vatican Council intact, while the rites of the Carmelites and Dominicans were basically dismantled and no longer exist.
 
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mgy100:
Does anyone know if you can get the movie The Great Silence or whatever it is called about the Carthusians?
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Update on USA debut:

Saturday, January 21 at 2:00 PM MST
Sundance Film Festival
Holiday Village Cinema II
 
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