cassock+surplice

[zab]

My question is if it is wrong for the celebrant to wear a long surplice instead of an alb during Mass with the chasible and other required vestments?

I’m not trying to be an Anglican but I think that the long surplice looks better than the alb.

Your Answer is found in post #5

Yes. Remember that the cassock is “street clothes” and so has to be covered by the actual vestments. But that “alb” might come in different styles…

Actually, the surplice and alb are the same garment. A surplice is an alb with short arms and a shorter length. Over the centuries, albs kept getting shorter and shorter until the “final” version which we have today, and we call it a surplice. Some surplices are very long, coming nearly to the floor and having sleeves almost to the wrists (more common in Europe, especially England but rather rare in America)–same thing but we apply different names depending upon the style.

Our pastor has a long surplice that he wears on special feasts and it looks best with his French style (I think it is French style) chausable that is smaller and more open on the sides. This surplice is more lacey on the edge of the sleeves and the bottom.

 

[Aramis]

Wearing the chasuble over the Cassock and Surplice USED TO BE allowed; since the Alb has reemerged in use, and the surplice has become distinct from the alb, it is No Longer allowed.

The Cassock and Surplice is still choir dress; concelebrants major (those at the altar) are not to wear choir dress, but full vestments if possible, alb and stole if chasubles are lacking. Concelebrants minor, who remain in the choir area of the nave, wear choir dress or alb and stole. (My dad, for example, doesn’t own a cassock & surplice. So he vests in alb and stole when seated in choir.)

 

[OhMalley]

Yes.

The cassock is really “street clothes,” and can be worn anytime. The surplice and stole are added during administration of sacraments and sacramentals, Liturgy of the Hours, etc, but the chasuble still has to be worn for celebrating Mass. **For concelebrants, cassock and surplice is appropriate only if there’s a shortage of chasubles. ** As for funerals, the chasuble is worn for Mass, but the cassock and surplice may be worn in the cemetery.

I don’t believe so. If there is a shortage of chasubles then concelebrants wear alb + stole. Choir dress (cassock, Roman collar and surplice) would be appropriate for those priests at a Mass tha were not concelebrating (ex. a master of ceremonies.)

I should have read Aramis’ comments first…

 

[OhMalley]

That depends on what one means by “substitute.” I did say in another post that the chasuble is not worn over the surplice (unless it’s a surplice that’s so long it would be considered an alb, and here we get into a matter of semantics).

Here’s what the GIRM says:

336 The alb may not be replaced by a surplice, not even over a cassock, **on occasionswhen a chasuble or dalmatic is to be worn **or when, according to the norms, only a stole is worn without a chasuble or dalmatic.

So what it’s really saying is that the surplice can be a replacement for the alb, but not under certain circumstances. That’s different than saying that the two can never be interchanged.

For example, the cassock & surplice might be worn under the cope, on some occasions.

See also the rite of marriage outside of Mass which specifically says that a cassock and surplice is proper vesture.

Mass is precisely one of those times…

 

[Chris_ArmyCA]

Besides the GIRM, are there any other official guides for vesting?

Has the way that a priest vests changed from pre-Vatican II because of new adjustments to the Mass or is it simply a culture thing that has changed over time? Can priests still vest the “old-fashioned way” or only when doing the “old Latin Rite Mass?”

Everyone is probably sick of me referencing the Episcopal church but this is what I noticed in my old parish:

-During daily Morning Prayer, Evening Prayer, or Compline when there was no “Holy Communion” anyone who went near the chancel to read or do any function pertaining to the service wore a cassock and a long surplice and a cross or medalian that symbolized their particuar duty hanging on a chord that was the color of the liturgical season. If they were a member of the clergy they wore a stole as well.

-During a typical Sunday worship service where “Holy Communion” was celebrated there about four clergy members participating in different functions. The preacher wore a cassock with a long surplice, a stole, and a “preacher’s collor” (looks kinda like what Mayflower pilgrims wore). The Communion celebrant wore a thin alb that looks closer to a surplice with a cinture, and a stole that he crossed over his breast to form an X, and then put the chasible on just before he went up to the altar for the Liturgy of the Eucharist. The lay altar servers, chalice bearers (eucharistic ministers), choir, readers, cross bearers, torch bearers, all wore black cassocks and surplices and the thurifer wore a red casock for some reason (I always thought it had something to do with the symboism of the Holy Spirit’s presence).

Side note/chasing another rabbit: Before it was time for the Gospel to be read there was a procession with the Gospel Book towards the center of the Sanctuary and down the isle - it was read from there. During the consecraton they rang the bell in the steeple three times: once when the priest knelt, once when he stood up holding the elements high over his head, and once when he put it back down to kneel again. Communion was taken at the rail kneeling, if able, by intinction and placed on the tongue by the server (server in cassock and surplice) while holding a plate under the chin.

When I started going to Catholic Mass, I was sort of shocked how people seemed to just take the Body and Blood of Christ so quickly and nonchalant like. Then made the sign of the cross after they took Communion facing the crucifix instead of making it while facing Christ in the Blessed Sacrament before recieving (not that it must be done that way!) For my first Communion, I asked the priest if I could kneel to recieve Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament for the first time, and he looked at me like I was crazy! I thought… “this time I’m literally taking in Jesus Christ, not just a something that symbolizes Jesus Christ, and this is how they treat him?”

Conclusion: I just want to learn how the Mass is suposed to flow with all of its parts, including propper vestments, according to “the book” and then follow the instructions to the best of my ability and lovingly help others do the same. I understand that some will reject advice or are too lazy to do it “the more correct way.” All in all I think It’s more about where the heart is, but the way we conduct ourselves and DRESS, will help us become more aware and go deeper into the sacred mystery.

Sincerely,

Chris

 

[Aramis]

Chris:

the only major difference in the rubrics is the elimination of the maniple.

The specification that the stole may be worn over the chasuble was later, and has since been revoked.

The Chasuble-Alb (a distinct garment all its own) replaces the alb and chasuble only for concelebrants.

Here’s the thing: under the older missals, Roman priests have not been able to concelebrate in the same sense we have now. A solmen high mass might involve 4+ priests, but not as priests. Only the celebrant vested as a priest. The second priest vested as a deacon if no deacon was present. The third vested as a subdeacon if no subdeacon was present. The 4th was master of Ceremonies, in choir vestment. the 5th and 6th might also be in the sanctuary, in cassock and surplice, serving as Acolytes.

True priestly concelebration under the old form was limited: only Pontifical High Masses (Masses celebrated by a bishop in his see) and Ordinations (almost always also PHM’s) had true priestly concelebration with multiple priests vested as priests.

Even now, when a priest serves as MC, he may vest in Cassock and Surplice, but he does not then take the concelebratory position around the alter.

Note that Deacons may serve as MC, and wear cassock and surplice in choir. If not one of the deacons assisting in the Liturgy of the Word or the Liturgy of the Eucharist, they should be either vested or in choir dress, and should sit in choir.

The one big issue I have with the Married Deacons is that they do not normally wear choir dress when traveling… and they should when attending liturgies outside their faculties.

 

[PrayForMeStJude]

A picture is worth a thousand words. To illustrate what I mean about the alb eventually becoming the surplice, here’s an image of something that is sold as a “surplice” but that most people would call an “alb” at first glance. Note the the only thing making it a surplice is how the neck is cut.
murphyrobes.com/item_details.asp?catid=1&subcatid=4&prodid=1068&page=1

Now imagine over a period of some centuries this garment getting a little bit shorter every few years. What we would end up with would be rather like what most Catholics would readily call a surplice today.

Then again, I’ve seen albs sold as albs with that style neck cut.

 

[Catholicben]

Hello Everyone!

I’m going to chase a rabbit now… I’ve been told that some Anglicans have held on to past traditions that they inherited from the Catholic Church, better than we have in some cases. (For example, lighting the candels a certain way and in a certain direction before and after Mass.) One of the things that I miss about my experience with the Episcopalians is how they treated the liturgy. I’d rather have truth over looks but it seems like the majority of American Catholics are sloppy with the liturgy. (Just an opinion! I’m cool with contemporary! Don’t get angry at me! As long as it’s in accordance with the GIRM everything is peachy!)

Chris

We are doing this (lighting the candles in a certain order) at the Cathedral Parish in Madison, WI! (or at least we are trying to get the servers to do it).The best part is we get to light these:
http://www.isthmuscatholic.org/pictures/IMG_9850.jpg

Go Bishop Morlino!

Not only that, but the good Bishop has been using fiddlebacks and maniples a ton lately too!

Easter Vigil 2010
http://yankehome.com/vestments/Roman1.jpg http://yankehome.com/vestments/Roman2.jpg

The Cassock and Surplice is still choir dress; concelebrants major (those at the altar) are not to wear choir dress, but full vestments if possible, alb and stole if chasubles are lacking. Concelebrants minor, who remain in the choir area of the nave, wear choir dress or alb and stole.

What is a Concelebrant minor?? They aren’t actually concelebrating. They are attending mass in choir dress.

 

[Spirithound]

What is a Concelebrant minor?? They aren’t actually concelebrating. They are attending mass in choir dress.

It appears that they are concelebrating, especially if they wear the alb and stole.

 

[boatbearer]

Yes.

The cassock is really “street clothes,” and can be worn anytime. The surplice and stole are added during administration of sacraments and sacramentals, Liturgy of the Hours, etc, but the chasuble still has to be worn for celebrating Mass. For concelebrants, cassock and surplice is appropriate only if there’s a shortage of chasubles. As for funerals, the chasuble is worn for Mass, but the cassock and surplice may be worn in the cemetery.

I’m not sure that they ever are in the Latin Rite in that situation. An alb and a stole, yes. A cassock, surplice and stole? I don’t think so. And no, in this application a surplice is not an alb.

 

[PacoG]

As for the opposite, I’ve always thought that the alb and stole (w/o chasuble) looks pretty silly. To me at least it seems like the priest “forgot” to put on his chasuble. My opinion is if one isn’t going to wear the chasuble, then go with the cassock and stole. The alb might be licit (and is), but that doesn’t mean it’s in good taste.

Would you say that the same applies to deacons who wear alb and diaconal stole instead of wearing the dalmatic?

 

[Aramis]

What is a Concelebrant minor?? They aren’t actually concelebrating. They are attending mass in choir dress.

Those priests participating in the mass but not at the altar. Pretty much only happens at diocesan and pan-diocesan events. It’s one of a dozen different terms used for those priests, whose role in such liturgies is minor.

Choir dress was seen much more often under the Trent to 1965 Roman missals, because under the those missals, only 3 persons vested, the principal celebrant as priest, the concelebrant or deacon as deacon, and a concelebrant, deacon, or subdeacon as subdeacon; all others literally sat in the choir area, and observed, mostly passively, the mass go on. Each did the part of they whose vestments they wore. If there were not enough clerics to fill the roles, the celebrant took those parts as well.

But post-Vatican II, the Roman Church renewed a tradition that the Eastern Rites have always maintained: priestly concelebration. The principle Celebrant has certain specific parts; many other parts may be handed off to concelebrant priests (such would be the concelebrants major); further, if there are concelebrant priests but no deacon, the deacon’s parts and tasks devolve upon a concelebrant (the current missal no longer has subdeacon’s parts). Such parts are usually marked clearly in the sacramentary. Additional concelebrants take the normal responses, and join in the words of institution (whispering them).

It’s a different understanding of the role of additional priests, and thus they should be vested.

Based upon the GIRM, The principle celebrant must be vested in alb, stole, and chasuble (and should have amice or hood, and a cincture, as well). As many other celebrants as can be vest likewise; then as many more in Alb, amice, cincture and stole. Then, and only then, as many more as may be present in Cassock and Surplice.

The times Cassock, Surplice and Stole are appropriate at present include:
Graveside services
Confessions
Communion outside the Mass*
Liturgy of the Hours as public liturgy***
Marriage outside the Mass
Public convalidation outside the mass
Baptism away from the chapel**
Extreme Unction

• Alb and Stole is more suitable by some of the theologians I’ve read and/or talked to.
  ** Usually, this means an emergency baptism… a child on life support equipment, or otherwise unable to be brought to the chapel of the parish.
  *** Alb and Stole is commonly used, especially when mass will follow.

 

[Spirithound]

further, if there are concelebrant priests but no deacon, the deacon’s parts and tasks devolve upon a concelebrant

This is something that I have never seen. The two priests at my parish very often concelebrate, but the non-principal celebrant never says the parts proper to a deacon. They alternate weekends reading the Gospel and giving the homily, but that’s it.

 

[Aramis]

This is something that I have never seen. The two priests at my parish very often concelebrate, but the non-principal celebrant never says the parts proper to a deacon. They alternate weekends reading the Gospel and giving the homily, but that’s it.

Those parts proper to the deacon in the roman mass:
to lead the prayer of the faithful (tho the petitions themselves may be devolved upon a reader)
To give the prompt for the blessing “Bow your heads…”
to give the dismissal itself (Ite missa est/Go in Peace)
To lead the Kyrie/lord have mercy
to proclaim the gospel
The prayer as water is added to the wine.

That’s it. And if your priest are omitting those, then the mass they say is illicit.

 

[Spirithound]

Those parts proper to the deacon in the roman mass:
to lead the prayer of the faithful (tho the petitions themselves may be devolved upon a reader)
To give the prompt for the blessing “Bow your heads…”
to give the dismissal itself (Ite missa est/Go in Peace)
To lead the Kyrie/lord have mercy
to proclaim the gospel
The prayer as water is added to the wine.

That’s it. And if your priest are omitting those, then the mass they say is illicit.

Those parts are definitely included in my parish’s Masses, but they are said by the principal celebrant.

 

[Brendan]

In a Mass that is concelebrated, a priest other than the principal celebrant should read the Gospel.

GIRM 212 …When the Alleluia is begun, all rise, except for a Bishop, who puts incense into the thurible without saying anything and blesses the deacon or, if there is no deacon, the concelebrant is to proclaim the Gospel.

 

[VietCatholic83]

wow I started this thread a looooooooong time ago…