Castrillón satisfied with SSPX answer; SSPX will give heed to the five points

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Oh please. Everyone knows that a current Pope cannot bind a future Pope; what one binds another can loosen. According to literalist interpretations of Quo Primum the missal of 1570 can never be altered, though since 1570 it was revised many times, lastly in 1962!!! The celebration of the Mass is a discipline and is subject to change/revision.

Tell that to the traditionalist crowd. They hang on select verbages from Popes of old, while refusing to listen to the Popes of our lifetimes.

Easier to manipulate the words of the dead to suit our purpose. They aren’t here to clarify themselves.

These two posts hit the nail on the head. Was it not Jesus who said, “Whatever you bind on earth is bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth is loosed in heaven.” Maybe some just don’t like what’s been loosed.
Prayers & blessings
Deaco Ed B

 

[GerardP]

These two posts hit the nail on the head. Was it not Jesus who said, “Whatever you bind on earth is bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth is loosed in heaven.” Maybe some just don’t like what’s been loosed.
Prayers & blessings
Deaco Ed B

Here I agree with you. Cardinal Ottaviani called the Novus Ordo a “letting down of all the Church’s defenses.”

This stems from a very bad concept of “kenosis” among the sincere liberals and fully taken advantage of by the modernist scoundrels during and after the Council.

As an SSPX priest told me with regarding the non-Lenten Friday abstention from meat and the midnight fast, “Rome has taken away the obligation, but it can’t forbid you from still utilizing those traditions because they are still helpful in forming a Christian person and that helps form a Christian society.”

Meanwhile, the “option” of the Novus Ordo became the “norm” and the “legal” TLM became illegally suppressed. Fast and abstinence went out the window totally. Bishops have overstepped their authority for decades. The Popes need to squash them before anything can get better.

The lack of prudence on the part of Paul VI in particular has lead to a disaster of discipline.

 

[GerardP]

Oh please. Everyone knows that a current Pope cannot bind a future Pope; what one binds another can loosen. According to literalist interpretations of Quo Primum the missal of 1570 can never be altered, though since 1570 it was revised many times, lastly in 1962!!! The celebration of the Mass is a discipline and is subject to change/revision.

So, you’re saying a Pope can “undo” the dogma of the Assumption?

 

[consumedconvert]

So, you’re saying a Pope can “undo” the dogma of the Assumption?

Not dogmas. Disciplines, small t traditions, the way we go about certain Sacraments, like the Mass.

 

[GerardP]

Not dogmas. Disciplines, small t traditions, the way we go about certain Sacraments, like the Mass.

So there are things that one Pope can bind all future Popes to. I just want to make sure we don’t use too broad a brush in describing things.

Obviously a Pope can’t change the matter necessary for Baptism like milk for water or Rice cakes for wheaten bread for the Eucharist.

 

[consumedconvert]

So there are things that one Pope can bind all future Popes to. I just want to make sure we don’t use too broad a brush in describing things.

Obviously a Pope can’t change the matter necessary for Baptism like milk for water or Rice cakes for wheaten bread for the Eucharist.

Obviously.

But the language or manner in which Mass is said is not Dogma, any more than the size and shape of the Baptismal Font is Dogma, or the type of wood used in the construction of the confessional is dogma.

 

[GerardP]

Obviously.

But the language or manner in which Mass is said is not Dogma, any more than the size and shape of the Baptismal Font is Dogma, or the type of wood used in the construction of the confessional is dogma.

Alright. So that means that one Pope can change something that is good for the faithful in that it aids the faithful in acheiving holiness and another Pope can take away that aid.

Such as introducing a rite of mass that doesn’t contain the same quality of reminders or gestures that aid the faithful that an older rite has.

In other words, it’s up to the prudence of the Pope and not automatically a direct guidance by the Holy Ghost.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Dogma cannot change and never will. Discipline can change and does. As I said, some just do not like what has been loosed. The example given of Cardinal Ottaviani not liking the change is a good example of that. But remember, he did not have the power of loosing and binding that came with the “power of the keys”. That power and authority belongs uniquely to the pope.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[GerardP]

That doesn’t of course mean that Popes can’t abuse that power or misuse it.

In cases like that, one can’t charge a Pope with exceeding his power but he can be resisted and implored to change his mind if the faith is at stake.

 

[saint_rafael]

Oh please. Everyone knows that a current Pope cannot bind a future Pope; what one binds another can loosen. According to literalist interpretations of Quo Primum the missal of 1570 can never be altered, though since 1570 it was revised many times, lastly in 1962!!! The celebration of the Mass is a discipline and is subject to change/revision.

You do not understand the Catholic faith.
All infallible teachings bind Popes.

Yes they can. Infallible dogmas and doctrines bind all future Popes. All previous Popes, through their Magisterial teaching, contribute to the Ordinary Magisterium.

The Ordinary Magisterium is infallible. Every Pope is bound to uphold, reteach, and defend the Ordinary Magisterium.

Each new Pope has less room in matters of faith and morals because doctrines have constantly been retaught and settled by the previous Popes.

There is also the obvious Extraordinary Magisterium. Papal Infallibility is De Fide for every Catholic. All Ex-Cathedra statements bind every Pope forever.

Quo Primum said that the Roman Rite, the TLM could never been replaced. The TLM has always had revisions to it from the 2nd century, to St. Gregory the Great, to Trent, to St. Pius X, and Pope John XXIII.

The Novus Ordo and 1970 Missal was not another revision, but a completely New Mass that replaced the TLM for the first time since Quo Primum and Trent forbid the elimination of the TLM.

 

[Sepharad]

Obviously.

But the language or manner in which Mass is said is not Dogma, any more than the size and shape of the Baptismal Font is Dogma, or the type of wood used in the construction of the confessional is dogma.

Its interesting, reading these comments…it seems to me that Orthodox Judaism is more “traditional” in outlook then, than Catholicism. Because in our faith, if something is done long enough (a custom), it takes on the force of a law.

 

[consumedconvert]

Its interesting, reading these comments…it seems to me that Orthodox Judaism is more “traditional” in outlook then, than Catholicism. Because in our faith, if something is done long enough (a custom), it takes on the force of a law.

You may be correct, in a sense. In Catholicism things do not become dogma or carry the force of law merely becuase the have been around a long time. For example, the form of the rosary was given to us in the middle ages and remained unchanged for many years. But the form of the rosary is still not infallibly “set,” or set by force of law. Most people pray with five decades at a time instead of fifteen, and Pope John Paul II added the Luminous Mysteries.

Of course people are still free to omit the Luminous Mysteries or to pray with a fifteen decade rosary, and many still do.

By way of contrast, the Miraculous Assumption of the Virgin Mary is infallible dogma, yet was formally defined only in the latter half of the last century.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

That doesn’t of course mean that Popes can’t abuse that power or misuse it.

In cases like that, one can’t charge a Pope with exceeding his power but he can be resisted and implored to change his mind if the faith is at stake.

The above post is self contradictory. You state the pope cannot be charged with abusing or misusing the power of the keys. And then you state he can be resisted when he exceeds that power. Sounds like double speak to me. Are you running for some political office. That said, why would you want to resist the pope, when he looses or binds, which he is vested with divine power to do? sound s like extremely shaky ground to me.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[BrendanD]

All infallible teachings bind Popes.
…]
Quo Primum said that the Roman Rite, the TLM could never been replaced.

Quo Primum’s protection of the TLM is great, but I don’t think we can say that it carries infallibility. It only applies to the Roman Rite, not the whole universal Church.

 

[otjm]

Hmmm…Seems like he has more of a clue than you, evidently!

Absolute nonsense. Consider this, if you will, from a valid Pope, a saint no less:

“…We grant and concede in perpetuity that, for the chanting or reading of the Mass in any church whatsoever, this Missal is hereafter to be followed absolutely, without any scruple of conscience or fear of incurring any penalty, judgment, or censure, and may freely and lawfully be used. Nor are superiors, administrators, canons, chaplains, and other secular priests, or religious, of whatever title designated, obliged to celebrate the Mass otherwise than as enjoined by Us. We likewise declare and ordain that no one whosoever is forced or coerced to alter this Missal, and that this present document cannot be revoked or modified, but remain always valid…” - Pope St Pius V, “Quo Primum”, 1570

The Pope did, and acted out of his jurisdiction.

Tell that to St Padre Pio, who never once celebrated the Novus Ordo and stated he would rather die than celebrate it.

You must have missed a few threads herein. No pope is able to bind future popes in perpetuity on disciplinary matters; that has been the postion of the Church for far longer than the last 500 years or so.

Furthermore, you would not have dragged that quote out for airing if you had any knowlege whatsoever of the changes that have occured since 1570 to, say, 1960 to the Mass that you are referencing. There have been changes down through the centuries; some very minor and others larger.

Or perhaps you already know this and have problems with a whole series of Popes prior to John 23rd…

 

[ethelzguy]

Quo Primum’s protection of the TLM is great, but I don’t think we can say that it carries infallibility. It only applies to the Roman Rite, not the whole universal Church.

A voice of reason