Cat*olic Channel Contradicting the Church?

[traditionalgal]

I am a Protestant who enjoys listening to the Catolic Channel on
Siris Satellite Radio. There is a show where the host is Bb Duning. On the program, he was discussing Mormons and he seemed to insinuate that some Protestants were not being correct or fair when they considered Mormons a cult or a non Christian religion. It was my understanding that Catholicism disagrees with this. In fact, this page comes to mind from this website -

catholic.com/library/noncatholic_groups.asp .

1. What is the position of the church on this? Am I understanding the link correctly and that the church does not see it as Christian?
2. When pushed for an answer on the church’s position, he basically stated that a Mormon would need to be asked if they considered themselves Christian. To me, this sounded like politically correct jargon on a station for Catholics. If the church’s positon is that Mormonism is not Christian or a cult, it seems odd that a talk show host can avoid supporting the position of the church on a station representing the church. This was a bit bizarre to me and makes me question if all the hosts on the station are accurately representing church positions. Scary for people looking to be educated about the church.

Comments? Answers?

 

[Allweather]

Just my opinion, I think there are different ways to apply the name Christian. Mormons usually get offended when they’re called non-Christian. I know a few Mormons, and have argued with them, and found them to not appreciate being called that. OTOH, the Catholic Church doesn’t accept Mormon baptism as valid, and neither do Mormons accept Catholic baptisms (or any other church’s baptism for that matter). From a strictly technical point of view, it doesn’t seem possible that Mormons are Christians, since their entire concept of God and Jesus are at odds with orthodoxy. But if you’re thinking in terms of Christian lifestyle, holiness, lovingkindness, etc, then I think it isn’t ungenerous to consider them Christian.

Welcome to the forums.

Why do you replace certain letters with an * ?

 

[traditionalgal]

Just my opinion, I think there are different ways to apply the name Christian. Mormons usually get offended when they’re called non-Christian. I know a few Mormons, and have argued with them, and found them to not appreciate being called that. OTOH, the Catholic Church doesn’t accept Mormon baptism as valid, and neither do Mormons accept Catholic baptisms (or any other church’s baptism for that matter). From a strictly technical point of view, it doesn’t seem possible that Mormons are Christians, since their entire concept of God and Jesus are at odds with orthodoxy. But if you’re thinking in terms of Christian lifestyle, holiness, lovingkindness, etc, then I think it isn’t ungenerous to consider them Christian.

Welcome to the forums.

Why do you replace certain letters with an * ?

Thanks for responding. I used the * because I wasn’t sure if I could name people or stations. The * leaves out the details of the full name. Even though people may be able to see what they are, they aren’t fully labeled.

Your answer wasn’t completely what I was looking for with my questions. I was wondering if the church’s position was that Mormonism is not Christian. Do you know their position and is it like what is in the link on this site? Do you think the host was incorrect in not mentioning the church’s view?

From what I know of Mormonism, it is in complete condradiction to Christianity. Example-No trinity, God had intercourse with Mary to produce Jesus, Jesus and Satan are brothers, when people die they can populate their own planets, etc.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Hello traditionalgal and welcome to the forums.

Someone correct me if I am wrong but with regards to Mormonism and the Catholic Church the Church does not accept Mormon baptisms as valid because they do not baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. A Mormon convert to Catholicism would need to be Baptized in the Catholic church. I don’t know enough about Mormonism to determine if they are Christian or not and I am not aware of an official stance that the Church takes on them. There could be, but I am just not aware of it. However if I am allowed an educated guess, since the Church’s belief that through Baptism we become members of Christ and Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life and Mormons are Baptized again upon entering the Church; it would be my guess that the Church would not consider Mormons Christian.

1213 Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua), and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: “Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word.”

Again this is my guess and is not the official view of the Church andI will gladly change my opinion if someone shows me the official view of the Catholic Church on Mormonism.

The Catholic Answers Library has some articles on Mormonism:

catholic.com/library/distinctive_beliefs_of_mormon.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9909fea4.asp

God bless

 

[exoflare]

Your answer wasn’t completely what I was looking for with my questions. I was wondering if the church’s position was that Mormonism is not Christian. Do you know their position and is it like what is in the link on this site? Do you think the host was incorrect in not mentioning the church’s view?

You’re correct. In the Catholic view, Mormons are not Christians.

 

[Fate]

There is a large and vast difference between what any given church might call “Christian” and what secularism would call “Christian”.

Mormons call themselves Christian.

Jehovah’s Witnesses call themselves Christian, and refer to themselves as the “only true Christians”.

Various Protestant groups will call themselves Christian, but claim Catholicism or Orthodox is not Christian.

The definition of Christian is something that can and does change radically from any given point of view. All of these groups would argue about which of the other Groups are Christian or not. At the same time, a secular researcher could very well label ALL of these groups as “Christian” - they all use the Gospel and some add or remove various other books or groups of books, and they all refer to some version of teachings from a Christ figure.

So, while we may agree that Mormonism is in contradiction with Christianity, the real question is - according to who and by what definitions?

 

[traditionalgal]

Hello traditionalgal and welcome to the forums.

Someone correct me if I am wrong but with regards to Mormonism and the Catholic Church the Church does not accept Mormon baptisms as valid because they do not baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. A Mormon convert to Catholicism would need to be Baptized in the Catholic church. I don’t know enough about Mormonism to determine if they are Christian or not and I am not aware of an official stance that the Church takes on them. There could be, but I am just not aware of it. However if I am allowed an educated guess, since the Church’s belief that through Baptism we become members of Christ and Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life and Mormons are Baptized again upon entering the Church; it would be my guess that the Church would not consider Mormons Christian.

Again this is my guess and is not the official view of the Church andI will gladly change my opinion if someone shows me the official view of the Catholic Church on Mormonism.

The Catholic Answers Library has some articles on Mormonism:

catholic.com/library/distinctive_beliefs_of_mormon.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9909fea4.asp

God bless

Thanks for responding. Based on the link I provided on www.catholic.com, the church considers them non Christian.

By the way, no one answered my question on the show’s host. If the church sees Mormonism as non Christian, should a host on a channel representing the church present an alternative view?

 

[puzzleannie]

without addressing at all what some commentator said on the radio, since no link is supplied and no accurate quote cited, I will merely point out that Mormon baptism is not recognized by the Catholic Church because neither the ritual nor the intent behind it conveys the intent of baptism as defined by the Catholic Church. I hope that answers OP’s question. Mormon doctrine clearly denies the foundational doctrines about Christ, therefore this denomination is not Christian. This question has been answered many times on this forum, in fact we used to have a sub-forum dedicated to discussing Mormons.

 

[traditionalgal]

You’re correct. In the Catholic view, Mormons are not Christians.

This is one of the answers I was hoping to get-A yes/no response on the church’s position. It seems to me that Catholics should be able to directly answer the position held by their faith.

What do you think about the host of a Catholic show? Should he be able to present a comment contrary to the church’s position or not be willing to comment on the church’s position? Is this odd to you?

 

[exoflare]

This is one of the answers I was hoping to get-A yes/no response on the church’s position. It seems to me that Catholics should be able to directly answer the position held by their faith.

What do you think about the host of a Catholic show? Should he be able to present a comment contrary to the church’s position or not be willing to comment on the church’s position? Is this odd to you?

I can respect that he’s trying not to offend people, but IMO it is not worth misstating the official view of the Church like that. He would not be uncharitable in any way, to simply inform everyone what the Church says… and if people don’t like it, they don’t have to listen!

Another possibility is that maybe he was just ignorant of what the Church really taught on that matter? I don’t know…

 

[traditionalgal]

without addressing at all what some commentator said on the radio, since no link is supplied and no accurate quote cited, I will merely point out that Mormon baptism is not recognized by the Catholic Church because neither the ritual nor the intent behind it conveys the intent of baptism as defined by the Catholic Church. I hope that answers OP’s question. Mormon doctrine clearly denies the foundational doctrines about Christ, therefore this denomination is not Christian. This question has been answered many times on this forum, in fact we used to have a sub-forum dedicated to discussing Mormons.

Thanks for your response. I do understand your not wanting to directly comment on a specific commentator since you don’t have a transcript or copy of an email. However, I do think that you could comment on a case scenario of “what if…” ? Should a commentator be able to present a viewpoint different than that of the church on a channel representing the church?

My main point in asking these two questions is that I thought I knew the church’s position on Mormonism. However, what I came across didn’t really confirm what I thought I knew and it made me question the church’s position.

I appreciate your clarifying the church’s position. That is what I was mostly wanting.

 

[IAMLDS]

My neighbor across the street has a forty something year old son who has a savage struggle with alcohol. The other day I found him laying in the gutter out in front of his home. I ran across the street to ask him if he was ok. He looked up at me with that drunken confused look and asked, “Are you a Christian?” I’ve spent enough time on this forum to know that I’m not. Any thought of considering myself a Christian has been whipped out of me by the posters on this forum. As I helped him up, all I could think was, “No, all the real Christians are indoors on the internet arguing about who’s a real Christian.”

 

[exoflare]

“No, all the real Christians are indoors on the internet arguing about who’s a real Christian.”

Except for you, who is doing this telepathically, right?

PS: get over yourself.

 

[traditionalgal]

I can respect that he’s trying not to offend people, but IMO it is not worth misstating the official view of the Church like that. He would not be uncharitable in any way, to simply inform everyone what the Church says… and if people don’t like it, they don’t have to listen!

Another possibility is that maybe he was just ignorant of what the Church really taught on that matter? I don’t know…

You said:

“He would not be uncharitable in any way, to simply inform everyone what the Church says… and if people don’t like it, they don’t have to listen! ”

Yes, that is what I was thinking. I come from a conservative Protestant background and many of them see Mormonism as a cult and are very upfront about it. They are no where near trying to be politically correct. They just present what they see as truth. They come right out with it and there is no confusion about positions on the matter. It could be that he was ignorant of the church’s position, but I would hope not on a channel for the church.

 

[exoflare]

It could be that he was ignorant of the church’s position, but I would hope not on a channel for the church.

That makes two of us!

But yeah, if he knew the truth about it all along I’m afraid he made the wrong decision.

 

[traditionalgal]

There is a large and vast difference between what any given church might call “Christian” and what secularism would call “Christian”.

Mormons call themselves Christian.

Jehovah’s Witnesses call themselves Christian, and refer to themselves as the “only true Christians”.

Various Protestant groups will call themselves Christian, but claim Catholicism or Orthodox is not Christian.

The definition of Christian is something that can and does change radically from any given point of view. All of these groups would argue about which of the other Groups are Christian or not. At the same time, a secular researcher could very well label ALL of these groups as “Christian” - they all use the Gospel and some add or remove various other books or groups of books, and they all refer to some version of teachings from a Christ figure.

So, while we may agree that Mormonism is in contradiction with Christianity, the real question is - according to who and by what definitions?

I do agree that non Christians and others may have differing definitions and a philosophical discussion could come out of it. However, if the Catholic Church has a position, and you are Catholic, only one should be correct. If a person says he is Catholic, how can he disagree or avoid directly presenting the church’s position?

“Various Protestant groups will call themselves Christian, but claim Catholicism or Orthodox is not Christian.”

From my own experience, a ton of this is due to things like this. The cafeteria Catholic thing and what can be heard from an individual does more damage than you realize. In fact, it can affect people’s perceptions of the church. I am very supportive of Catholicism and defend it to conservative Christian Protestants. So, I know if I come away with the idea that a host seems a little soft on being direct with church views and doctrine and more PC, it’s no wonder people can get wrong ideas who are looking for them. It may be that I am so used to “my own” public figures and leaders not holding any punches. I am quite clear as to their positions and they are very direct in passing them on. They see truth as truth and dancing around the issue isn’t right and can open a can of worms.

 

[Allweather]

Someone correct me if I am wrong but with regards to Mormonism and the Catholic Church the Church does not accept Mormon baptisms as valid because they do not baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

The Mormons do follow the trinitarian formula in their baptisms, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. That isn’t the problem. Also, they do only immersion baptisms, but that isn’t the problem either. The problem is their teachings with regard to the nature of the Trinity. I’m sure some of the other teachings cause problems, too. Again, from a purely technical point of view, Mormons can’t be considered Christian, but as IAMLDS pointed out, there’s more to it than just a technical definition. Most of the Mormons I know are very nice people, and act utterly Christian in every possible way. They live clean, raise good families, are good citizens, and are very pleasant to be around… have great senses of humor, are not stuck up in any way.

 

[Vincent]

CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH
*
*
RESPONSE TO A ‘DUBIUM’
on the validity of baptism conferred by
«The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints»,

     **called «*Mormons***»

 ***Question******:*** Whether the baptism conferred by the community «*The Church of Jesus     Christ of Latter-day Saints*», called «*Mormons*» in the     vernacular, is valid.

 ***Response:***     *Negative*.

The Supreme Pontiff John Paul II, in the Audience granted to the undersigned Cardinal Prefect, approved the present Response, decided in the * Sessione Ordinaria of this Congregation, and ordered it published.*

From the Offices of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, 5 June 2001.

  + Joseph Cardinal RATZINGER

*Prefect

                  + Tarcisio BERTONE, S.D.B.      *

Archbishop emeritus of Vercelli*
Secretary

And from a commentary by Fr. Luis Ladaria, SJ, secretary of the International Theological Commission:

The formula used by the Mormons might seem at first sight to be a Trinitarian formula. The text states: "Being commissioned by Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" (cf. D&C 20:73). The similarities with the formula used by the Catholic Church are at first sight obvious, but in reality they are only apparent. There is not in fact a fundamental doctrinal agreement. There is not a true invocation of the Trinity because the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, according to the Church of Jesus Christ *of Latter-day Saints, *are not the three persons in which subsists the one Godhead, but three gods who form one divinity. One is different from the other, even though they exist in perfect harmony (Joseph F. Smith, ed., *Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith *[TPJSI,Salt Lake City: Desert Book, 1976, p. 372). The very word divinity has only a functional, not a substantial content

, because the divinity originates when the three gods decided to unite and form the divinity to bring about human salvation (*Encyclopaedia of Mormonism *[EM], New York: Macmillan, 1992, cf. Vol. 2, p. 552). . . .

As is easily seen, to the similarity of titles there does not correspond in any way a doctrinal content which can lead to the Christian doctrine of the Trinity. The words Father, Son and Holy Spirit, have for the Mormons a meaning totally different from the Christian meaning. The differences are so great that one cannot even consider that this doctrine is a heresy which emerged out of a false understanding of the Christian doctrine. The teaching of the Mormons has a completely different matrix.

Emphasis Added

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I am a Protestant who enjoys listening to the Catolic Channel on
Siris Satellite Radio. There is a show where the host is Bb Duning. On the program, he was discussing Mormons and he seemed to insinuate that some Protestants were not being correct or fair when they considered Mormons a cult or a non Christian religion. It was my understanding that Catholicism disagrees with this. In fact, this page comes to mind from this website -

catholic.com/library/noncatholic_groups.asp .

1. What is the position of the church on this? Am I understanding the link correctly and that the church does not see it as Christian?
2. When pushed for an answer on the church’s position, he basically stated that a Mormon would need to be asked if they considered themselves Christian. To me, this sounded like politically correct jargon on a station for Catholics. If the church’s positon is that Mormonism is not Christian or a cult, it seems odd that a talk show host can avoid supporting the position of the church on a station representing the church. This was a bit bizarre to me and makes me question if all the hosts on the station are accurately representing church positions. Scary for people looking to be educated about the church.

Comments? Answers?

If Mormonism is Christian, Islam must be - it is far closer to Christianity than Mormonism is. Mormonism is like Christianity in a few ways - that doesn’t make it Christian in reality: it is a completely different religion, with its own holy books, Prophet, doctrine of revelation, Mother in heaven, priesthoods, gods, heavens, & doctrine of creation. Mormonism is the only religion that attributes a part in creation to the BVM - no “Romanist” would ever say that. Not to mention its notion that God had sexual intercourse with her - Mormon thinking denies that God is Spirit (John 4.24), & corrupts the doctrine of the Incarnation as a result; it makes the Father into an adulterer (!!!), the “Virgin most chaste” (for so she is ) into a slut , & Christ into a bastard Is that sort of filth Christian ?​

If that’s Christian, then Mohammed is a Christian. Quite apart from the fraudulent nonsense of the Anthon Letter, & the unsatisfactory character of the testimony of the Three Witnesses & the Eight Witnesses to the BoM. As the text of the BoM today is not that of the BoM of 1830, even though it was translated under Divine inspiration (unlike any Christian version of the Bible), the attestations of those witnesses no longer refer to the 1830 text.

This religion is a lie & deceit, with its fake “Book of Abraham”, & worse Egyptology.

If the foundations are not Christ the Cornerstone & His Apostles, nothing built on them can make up for the lack of being founded on that foundation. The foundations are rotten, however attractive Mormons may be as persons.

Sorry to be so negative - you can blame Joseph Smith for the anti-Christian nature of his invention.

All is not lost - they are prophesied of in the Bible:

• 1Jo 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
  1Jo 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,
  1Jo 4:3 and every spirit which does not confess Jesus is not of God. This is the spirit of antichrist, of which you heard that it was coming, and now it is in the world already.
  Which is what they deny, by falsifying the Incarnation:
• 2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
  Their prophet claimed Mormonism was in the Bible - he just got the book wrong. It’s not Ezekiel, but two of St. John’s letters.

 

[Bennie_P]

Here is link that I found on Catholic Culture compares Catholic and Mormon Beliefs comparing-views.com/ .

Though I have few Mormon friends/associates, they are not Christian.