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Flopfoot
Guest
Yeah the book of Job in the bible is interesting because Job’s friends think he must have done something wrong to incur God’s wrath but Job (correctly) claims that he is innocent
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Kei
Guest
I know you are pained.
However, none of these things imply that it is merely man made. The failure of humans, of even high ranking members, doesn’t show anything other than their own failings; it does not ipso facto show the degredation of their offices.
It may sound crazy for those that don’t know, but it has been admitted that there was attempted Communist infiltration into the Church. The Saint Gallen mafia is an important thing to keep in mind. I know to those who do not know, it sounds conspiratorial, but it is fairly well established. I think we are in a great time of strife, but the essential basics should not be ignored.
However, none of these things imply that it is merely man made. The failure of humans, of even high ranking members, doesn’t show anything other than their own failings; it does not ipso facto show the degredation of their offices.
It may sound crazy for those that don’t know, but it has been admitted that there was attempted Communist infiltration into the Church. The Saint Gallen mafia is an important thing to keep in mind. I know to those who do not know, it sounds conspiratorial, but it is fairly well established. I think we are in a great time of strife, but the essential basics should not be ignored.
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Kei
Guest
So many saints have had it especially hard; life is not supposed to be easy. But the truth is that sufferings shall be rewarded.
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Kei
Guest
I don’t know the context of why, but personally, I find the various crises going on now a great source of zeal. As a man, when I see a woman hurt, I want to rush to her aid–so much more so for Holy Mother Church! I share this so that some of you may be inspired to zeal at realizing the great mission we have ahead of ourselves. Imagine the great reforming saints of the Church. We can be like those great men and women!
Hold on and bide the tide, being intellectually satisfied and then building up the will. Pray for the gift of Faith and belief. Perhaps try some lectio divina, taking a good 10-15 minutes to calm down, start reading the Bible, read over the things, examine it, ponder it, pray to God concerning it as it relates to life, knowing at least intellectually that you are with the True God. Take it all in. I think this is a very good practice.
Hold on and bide the tide, being intellectually satisfied and then building up the will. Pray for the gift of Faith and belief. Perhaps try some lectio divina, taking a good 10-15 minutes to calm down, start reading the Bible, read over the things, examine it, ponder it, pray to God concerning it as it relates to life, knowing at least intellectually that you are with the True God. Take it all in. I think this is a very good practice.
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Jared2914
Guest
I think there are probably many going through that at this time with the scandal in the Church. Anyone who was already struggling with faith would be devastated by these developments. While I’m not having problems at the moment, I am sad to hear of others struggling with the faith. The good news about a crisis of faith is that when you get through it your faith will be stronger than it was before. Maybe the loss of faith is caused by a lack of feeling God’s presence, not believing the historical or logical evidence, a disagreement about Church teaching, or something else. You won’t be able to move on until you know this. The gift of faith is there, but sometimes God asks us to work for it.
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Darryl_B
Guest
Almost everyday I see or hear of people experiencing things beyond what I can grasp or understand. What is your story, please share.
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bobperk
Guest
Thanks for the post, Kei. I also tried to justify the problems in the Church by trying to believe that it had been infiltrated by Communists, the St. Gallen mafia, etc. But what bothers me about that is again, isn’t the Church supposed to be protected from these sorts of things? Did God make this into a kind of game, where we have to come up with conspiracy theories to justify why many within the Church are so evil?
We are put on this earth with no choice. Then we’re told that as long as we’re good, we’ll get to heaven with God. But the Catholic Church - which is supposed to be the one true institution established by God to get people to heaven - is full of problems, evil men, and in these last few years, seems unsure of what it even teaches or believes. People have enough problems in their lives already, there is enough pain and hurt. So it seems selfish for God to allow the Church to be so full of problems that the faithful need to constantly pray and worry about it. It seems cruel. To be quite honest, I think God is the one who should be saying an act of contrition for putting us through so much pain.
We are put on this earth with no choice. Then we’re told that as long as we’re good, we’ll get to heaven with God. But the Catholic Church - which is supposed to be the one true institution established by God to get people to heaven - is full of problems, evil men, and in these last few years, seems unsure of what it even teaches or believes. People have enough problems in their lives already, there is enough pain and hurt. So it seems selfish for God to allow the Church to be so full of problems that the faithful need to constantly pray and worry about it. It seems cruel. To be quite honest, I think God is the one who should be saying an act of contrition for putting us through so much pain.
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otjm
Guest
“Isn’t the Church supposed to be protected from these things?”
That question seems to show several things. Let’s start with Christ: at the Last Supper, Christ confected the Eucharist and gave First Communion to Judas. within an hour, Judas betrayed Christ, and the next day committed suicide.
And on that next day, all of the Apostles had abandoned Christ except for John, who stayed through the execution by crucifixion.
And there has not been a time since then that the Church has not had sinners; people betraying others, or committing other serious sins.
Homosexuality is not something that started occurring in the last few decades. It should be to no one’s surprise that we have homosexual bishops, and no surprise from that fact, that some of them have not been chaste. In the pat we have had Popes who had concubines, so whether it is homosexual sin or heterosexual sin, it is nothing new to the Church.
The great majority of priests, bishops and popes have sought to represent Christ to us, to confect the sacraments, and to seek their salvation as well as the salvation of those under their care. That some have been sinners should surprise no one.
We are put on earth with a vast multitude of choices. Christ never promised impeccability. He promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church, and it still hasn’t. Peter denied Christ not once, not twice, but three times. And Christ made him the head of the Church.
The Church is by no means unsure of what it teaches. The secular press, which a) knows extremely little of the Church and b) hates it, will say anything to get a headline, and good things about the Church rarely do.
The faithful do not need to worry abut the Church, They need to worry about the salvation of their own souls. That is not to say they should not pray for the Church; but once they have done that, they need to trust that God will deal with it, just as he has been dealing with it for the last 2,000 years. if one thinks the Church is in a crisis now, they forget that one of the greatest crises of the Church was the Arian heresy, which had a multitude of priests, bishops and laity buying into a false understanding of both the Trinity and Christ. And it started in about 321; in 671 we had the last of Arian kings in Europe; then it popped up again in the 16th through the 19th centuries. So your concerns do not have much perspective overall.
That question seems to show several things. Let’s start with Christ: at the Last Supper, Christ confected the Eucharist and gave First Communion to Judas. within an hour, Judas betrayed Christ, and the next day committed suicide.
And on that next day, all of the Apostles had abandoned Christ except for John, who stayed through the execution by crucifixion.
And there has not been a time since then that the Church has not had sinners; people betraying others, or committing other serious sins.
Homosexuality is not something that started occurring in the last few decades. It should be to no one’s surprise that we have homosexual bishops, and no surprise from that fact, that some of them have not been chaste. In the pat we have had Popes who had concubines, so whether it is homosexual sin or heterosexual sin, it is nothing new to the Church.
The great majority of priests, bishops and popes have sought to represent Christ to us, to confect the sacraments, and to seek their salvation as well as the salvation of those under their care. That some have been sinners should surprise no one.
We are put on earth with a vast multitude of choices. Christ never promised impeccability. He promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church, and it still hasn’t. Peter denied Christ not once, not twice, but three times. And Christ made him the head of the Church.
The Church is by no means unsure of what it teaches. The secular press, which a) knows extremely little of the Church and b) hates it, will say anything to get a headline, and good things about the Church rarely do.
The faithful do not need to worry abut the Church, They need to worry about the salvation of their own souls. That is not to say they should not pray for the Church; but once they have done that, they need to trust that God will deal with it, just as he has been dealing with it for the last 2,000 years. if one thinks the Church is in a crisis now, they forget that one of the greatest crises of the Church was the Arian heresy, which had a multitude of priests, bishops and laity buying into a false understanding of both the Trinity and Christ. And it started in about 321; in 671 we had the last of Arian kings in Europe; then it popped up again in the 16th through the 19th centuries. So your concerns do not have much perspective overall.
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Mboo
Guest
it is not suffering that is rewarded. It is the charity lived in suffering that is rewarded, the suffering just gives more value to the charity, and thus allows the charity to have a greater reward.
When we suffer with impatience, it is a sign that we suffer without charity and this suffering has no meritorious value
Tis_Bearself
Patron
Sounds like you have a lot of issues with the Church that simply don’t bother me.
I’ll pray that you are able to calm your doubts and trust the Lord.
Having lived my entire life during the post-Vatican II era, the priests and parishes I see today are a big improvement over the 1970s from where I sit. More commitment to the priesthood, more choices for devotional and catechetical activities, more acceptance of tradition, less of the attitude that if you’re not out protesting the military and working with inner-city youth that you’re not “living your faith”, better homilies.
I’m seeing a lot of positives. I’m not too concerned about Amoris Laetitia, it does not apply to me and I’m not going to judge whether some divorced person can receive Holy Communion or not, it’s between them/ their priest/ God. I don’t lay awake nights over female deacons - I actually would find married priests more concerning on a lot of levels, but men seem to think that’s just fine and I can guess why - but I don’t lay awake nights over that either; if God wants either thing to happen, it will, it has nothing to do with me.
I don’t see traditional clergy being “punished” in my areas, I see them being given beautiful churches to celebrate their Masses in and being invited down to the Cathedral to hold Mass on a regular basis.
I don’t see anybody “advocating sexual license” going “free”, in fact I see them being thrown in prison around here including one diocesan official who got a prison term (now on appeal, I know about this because he used to be a pastor 5 miles away).
Muslims don’t bother me, I’d prefer us to make joint statements with them than have us shooting at each other. I also have spent a lot of years off and on working for Innocence Project and as a pro bono capital defense counsel so obviously if the death penalty is now off the books, I’m not going to be alarmed. It’s a dysfunctional process in USA anyway and barely exists except in a handful of states.
To me the Church is doing its best even if not perfect, and anyway, this is like I said about me seeing Jesus, every day if I can. Jesus is the only thing getting me through. I have no desire to bail on him, nor am I going to go looking for him in some Protestant church when my experiences with Protestant churches strongly suggests Protestant churches do not have the whole picture.
In any event, even if problems exist, being troubled about things largely beyond your control does nothing. It’s like watching the news and ranting at stuff happening far away that you can’t control. It’s a pointless waste of energy. Some people seem to enjoy it. Takes all kinds to make a world I guess.
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otjm
Guest
I do not mean or intend to be harsh. I have known a number of people who have had some sort of crisis of faith. What I have found (as I have been close to some of them) is that they often have a very child-like grasp of the faith; they often see things very very narrowly.
About 6 months ago I was floating around on a river in search of a salmon, with two other individuals, one of whom is evangelical, and the other who may or may not go to any church; I didn’t ask. Eventually, with one of them knowing I am Catholic, the topic of McCarrick and Pennsylvania came up and they wanted to know what I thought.
Having personally known at least 6 priests who have been accused of sexual abuse, I answered from a perspective of knowing more about the issue than many do. That did not satisfy them, and they pushed the issue, including the Pope. I finally looked at both of them and said “My faith is not in my local pastor, it is not in my archbishop; nor is it in any of the priests or bishops, not is it in the Pope. My faith is in Jesus Christ.”
That shut down the conversation, as they appeared to be looking for some deep seated angst or anger with the Church. It isn’t there. Am I appalled with the abuses which have been uncovered, or the incompetence and desire to suppress any information as to the wrong doing of priests by a series of bishops? Yes, appalled, but certainly not surprised.
About 6 months ago I was floating around on a river in search of a salmon, with two other individuals, one of whom is evangelical, and the other who may or may not go to any church; I didn’t ask. Eventually, with one of them knowing I am Catholic, the topic of McCarrick and Pennsylvania came up and they wanted to know what I thought.
Having personally known at least 6 priests who have been accused of sexual abuse, I answered from a perspective of knowing more about the issue than many do. That did not satisfy them, and they pushed the issue, including the Pope. I finally looked at both of them and said “My faith is not in my local pastor, it is not in my archbishop; nor is it in any of the priests or bishops, not is it in the Pope. My faith is in Jesus Christ.”
That shut down the conversation, as they appeared to be looking for some deep seated angst or anger with the Church. It isn’t there. Am I appalled with the abuses which have been uncovered, or the incompetence and desire to suppress any information as to the wrong doing of priests by a series of bishops? Yes, appalled, but certainly not surprised.
- I trust God to judge both the abusers and the bishops who mishandled the issues. 2) I think the best thing that has happened to the Church is that attorneys for the victims have sued the daylights out of the Church, and without that, we would not have the changes which have been brought about to rectify the underlying problems - abusers not being removed, and transparency which we did not have. The past has occurred for a number of reasons and a number of excuses, and rampant clericalism is part of that.
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GhostOfBBM
Guest
I don’t mean to sidetrack the thread (and you’ve wisely turned off your PMs
) but just out curiosity, does it bother you when we have married priests by exception, or only if it were to become common? For example, non-Latin rite Catholics have married priests, and there are of course married Latin rite priests by exception, usually converts from Anglicanism.
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Limoncello4021
Guest
If people are experiencing a crisis of faith over current events in the Church, I’ll tell you, it helps to be a student of history. Study the history of the Catholic Church and you will see that many earlier eras had it arguably even worse, with terrible popes, heresies, etc. Yet the Church survived. Knowing all this history well, I’m not undergoing any type of crisis except the suffering that goes along with watching the Church suffer. God has shown us a strong history of renewing the Church and raising up marvelous saints in every era. I recommend especially reading Dante and St. Catherine of Siena (they were close in time) to note the near-collapse of the papacy and the clergy at the time. Can you imagine being a devout lay person in a time when it was hard to know which one of three men claiming to be pope was actually the pope? Or when the pope decided to abandon Rome and become the tool of the French monarchy? Catherine also talks sharply about homosexual practices, having mistresses, and fathering of illegitimate children among the clergy. By no means does this excuse what is happening today. I suspect there little under the sun, except the fact that today’s media allows us to actually know what is happening.
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Kei
Guest
“Isn’t the Church supposed to be protected from these kinds of things”
Not really. It is protected from error in the Extraordinary Magesterium. It will be protected from them making changes to the extraordinary magesterium, not from them getting accepted into seminaries and then becoming priests, etc.
It is a conspiracy theory in the true sense of the term that it indeed involves conspiracy. However, in the common sense of the word, I would say there’s too much evidence.
I believe we were warned quite a lot about a time where even the elect would be deceived and a great time of trial of faith. Wheat, chaff, etc. God ultimately knows everyone’s inner workings more than we do.
A pope can be suspected error, in which case let him be tried by the proper authorities(historically this is done after he dies). The pope is only guaranteed to be free of error when invoking infallibility. It is not some impossibility for fallible documents to make fallible statements. It shouldn’t happen much; I just say it is not impossible.
Not really. It is protected from error in the Extraordinary Magesterium. It will be protected from them making changes to the extraordinary magesterium, not from them getting accepted into seminaries and then becoming priests, etc.
It is a conspiracy theory in the true sense of the term that it indeed involves conspiracy. However, in the common sense of the word, I would say there’s too much evidence.
I believe we were warned quite a lot about a time where even the elect would be deceived and a great time of trial of faith. Wheat, chaff, etc. God ultimately knows everyone’s inner workings more than we do.
A pope can be suspected error, in which case let him be tried by the proper authorities(historically this is done after he dies). The pope is only guaranteed to be free of error when invoking infallibility. It is not some impossibility for fallible documents to make fallible statements. It shouldn’t happen much; I just say it is not impossible.
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Kei
Guest
We should do so in charity and in love.
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Mboo
Guest
natural love, or human love has no merit for salvation.
It is charity, that is, the supernatural love of God who has merit and who gives us a glory in the Heaven.
Charity, still called supernatural love of God, consists in loving God for Himself, and loving our neighbor for God. This love is the fruit of faith and supernatural grace.
Human love is the love we have without having faith, this love is the fruit of nature and not the fruit of grace, even atheists have human love.
It is charity, that is, the supernatural love of God who has merit and who gives us a glory in the Heaven.
Charity, still called supernatural love of God, consists in loving God for Himself, and loving our neighbor for God. This love is the fruit of faith and supernatural grace.
Human love is the love we have without having faith, this love is the fruit of nature and not the fruit of grace, even atheists have human love.
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prayerrider
Guest
I’m intellectually satisfied by studying cosmology and biology. The evidence of our creator is everywhere.
The evidence for Christ is overwhelming as well.
The evidence for Christ is overwhelming as well.
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Kei
Guest
For me philosophical arguments are most important in terms of intellectual satisfaction. Our understanding of the physical world can easily change but right reason remains the same, even if someone tries to deny it.
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prayerrider
Guest
Cosmology and philosophy intersect, for me. There is no scientific discovery that contradicts the Catholic faith. In fact, God gave us scientific laws and the intellectual power to discover them.
Faith is eminently reasonable. Atheism is absurd.
Faith is eminently reasonable. Atheism is absurd.
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MamaJewel
Guest
This is exactly what happened to me.
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