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SHoJ
Guest
Can someone please explain why the word “to” is used in this section of the Catechism? Is this the sort of thing that causes non-Catholics to bash us for praying to Mary and the saints???
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Gorgias
Guest
“Mary, let’s you and I pray together for this intention that I have”. (Praying ‘with’ Mary.)
“Mary, please pray to Jesus for this intention that I have.” (Praying ‘to’ Mary.)
If someone bashes us for this kind of prayer, they’ll have to answer why it’s a bad thing that Christians pray for one another; and they’ll have to answer why Jesus said “he is not the God of the dead but of the living” (Mk 12:27)…!
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1ke
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1_with_God
Guest
What causes others to bash-catholics? It’s the devil!!! What is the problem with the word to? I talk to my grandsons and I talk to Mother Mary. I talk to Saint Pio often. And guess what, they listen, they talk to God for me.
I thank God that I am part of His church.
I thank God that I am part of His church.
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MaryT777
Guest
Well stated post; thank you!
Mary.
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Christine85
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Nothing wrong with praying to our Blessed Mother Mary, she’s there to help and carry our prayers to Jesus!! Some Saints such as St. Louis de Montfort actually say if Jesus hears a petition from Mary he simply can’t resist!!
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JRKH
Guest
Great Response…
In so far as non-Catholics who “bash” us, this is a very minor point.
More often their concern stems from more “obvious” things that they see as inappropriate. Things like kneeling or bowing in front of a statue, or wording in prayers that seem to give Mary a “god-like” status, or “titles” that have been given to Mary that seem (to them) a bit overboard.
Then too, Our Lady can be “bashed” as part of a more broad theological position. For instance, those who believe in “soul sleep” do not believe in prayer to ANY Saint since (by their understanding) the saint can’t hear you.
Another objection is the “one mediator” issue where the non-Catholic sees the Catholic as unnecessarily and unbiblically placing another mediator between God and man.
So - if a non-Catholic is inclined to bash, he doesn’t need to pull just a single word out of the catechism to find a reason.
Of course most of this stems from an ignorance of Catholic theology as it applies to Mary and the Saints and it can take considerable time to explain…assuming they are interested in learning…Peace
James
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classica87
Guest
Not sure if this helps, but I’ve been told that though we say “pray to,” it is more like “pray of,” in the sense that we are asking others to pray and intercede for us to God. Remember, pray used to be a common word; expressions like “I pray you” meant “I ask you.” Just because someone prays to a saint, it doesn’t mean they devalue God. We are asking others, including those still-living members of the Church Triumphant, to help us in our prayers and petitions to God, which is something—as others have mentioned—we are commanded to do in scripture.
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Fullness_Found
Guest
Dear SHoJ,
since others have already done a good job in answering your question, I thought I might offer you some useful Bible passages to show to people who object to the communion of saints / intercessory prayer of saints:
Hebrews 12:1 “says we “are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses” after speaking at length of saints that have died.
In Mark 9:4, Jesus has a conversation with Moses and Elijah (both of whom had long since died) on the Mount of Transfiguration.
Revelation 5:8 describes humans in heaven offering the prayers of those on earth to God: “the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints”
In Revelation 6:9-10, the souls of martyrs in heaven cry out to God for earthly justice.
James 5:16 says that “The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.” [This is why so many miracles happen through the intercession of saints.]
Tobit 12:12,15: “And so, when you and your daughter-in-law Sarah prayed, I brought a reminder of your prayer before the Holy One; and when you buried the dead, I was likewise present with you…I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One.”
Baruch 3:4: ”O Lord Almighty, God of Israel, hear now the prayer of the dead of Israel and of the sons of those who sinned before thee, who did not heed the voice of the Lord their God, so that calamities have clung to us.”
2 Maccabbees 15:12-16 describes a vision in which two departed saints continue pray for and strengthen the people of Israel:
“What he saw was this: Onias, who had been high priest, a noble and good man, of modest bearing and gentle manner, one who spoke fittingly and had been trained from childhood in all that belongs to excellence, was praying with outstretched hands for the whole body of the Jews. Then likewise a man appeared, distinguished by his gray hair and dignity, and of marvelous majesty and authority. And Onias spoke, saying, “This is a man who loves the brethren and prays much for the people and the holy city, Jeremiah, the prophet of God.” Jeremiah stretched out his right hand and gave to Judas a golden sword, and as he gave it he addressed him thus: “Take this holy sword, a gift from God, with which you will strike down your adversaries.”
Oftentimes, people who object to these practices believe in using “scripture alone” even though the Bible doesn’t teach 'scripture alone." That is why I listed only Bible verses, to reach out to those people. I hope this is helpful.
since others have already done a good job in answering your question, I thought I might offer you some useful Bible passages to show to people who object to the communion of saints / intercessory prayer of saints:
Hebrews 12:1 “says we “are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses” after speaking at length of saints that have died.
In Mark 9:4, Jesus has a conversation with Moses and Elijah (both of whom had long since died) on the Mount of Transfiguration.
Revelation 5:8 describes humans in heaven offering the prayers of those on earth to God: “the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints”
In Revelation 6:9-10, the souls of martyrs in heaven cry out to God for earthly justice.
James 5:16 says that “The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.” [This is why so many miracles happen through the intercession of saints.]
Tobit 12:12,15: “And so, when you and your daughter-in-law Sarah prayed, I brought a reminder of your prayer before the Holy One; and when you buried the dead, I was likewise present with you…I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One.”
Baruch 3:4: ”O Lord Almighty, God of Israel, hear now the prayer of the dead of Israel and of the sons of those who sinned before thee, who did not heed the voice of the Lord their God, so that calamities have clung to us.”
2 Maccabbees 15:12-16 describes a vision in which two departed saints continue pray for and strengthen the people of Israel:
“What he saw was this: Onias, who had been high priest, a noble and good man, of modest bearing and gentle manner, one who spoke fittingly and had been trained from childhood in all that belongs to excellence, was praying with outstretched hands for the whole body of the Jews. Then likewise a man appeared, distinguished by his gray hair and dignity, and of marvelous majesty and authority. And Onias spoke, saying, “This is a man who loves the brethren and prays much for the people and the holy city, Jeremiah, the prophet of God.” Jeremiah stretched out his right hand and gave to Judas a golden sword, and as he gave it he addressed him thus: “Take this holy sword, a gift from God, with which you will strike down your adversaries.”
Oftentimes, people who object to these practices believe in using “scripture alone” even though the Bible doesn’t teach 'scripture alone." That is why I listed only Bible verses, to reach out to those people. I hope this is helpful.
J
JRKH
Guest
This is quite true…but if I may play “devil’s advocate” here, there are a number of prayers that are NOT asking the saints to pray with us, but actually ask favors directly of the saint…Likewise there are devotions and so forth in which favors are attributed directly to saints.
Now - we ac Catholics recognize the interconnectedness and necessity of God’s Will in all of this, but to the non-Catholic, some of these things just do not sound right.
A prayer like the “hail Mary” is very straightforward - but the “Hail Holy Queen” or the “Memorare” contain things that can and do cause out non-Catholic brothers and sisters serious concern - concerns that are not readily answered by the explanation - Oh, we are just asking the saints to pray for us or pray with us…
Peace
James
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Randy_Carson
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classica87
Guest
Excellent point, sir! I always do like your posts. I think Mk. 12:27 is enough for me, but you’re right that non-Catholics (Me at one point!), probably wouldn’t find such an explanation helpful. If I’m in Heaven, I’m still a part of the Church—the Body of Christ—so doesn’t that mean I still have God’s work to do? I never thought about it, but I suppose non-Catholics wouldn’t think so. The general consensus (at least in the church I grew up in) was that we are separated from those who’ve died and gone to Heaven, but we’ll get to see them again later when we die.
The way my protestant church put it, they look at praying to a saint or asking favors of them as lowering God from his position of Almighty, or devaluing His power by thinking you can’t just go straight to Him. But even the favors we ask of saints are gotten by their prayers for us. Ultimately, it’s God who does everything. We know from James that the prayers of a holy person are effective, and if you had a friend with a direct line to God, wouldn’t you want his prayers? That’s the only way I can think to put it, but even that explanation probably won’t be enough for hardcore non-Catholics. Oh well. As my RCIA leader says, talk to God about your family, not to your family about God.
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Fullness_Found
Guest
I think this is a good point, especially when you consider how Christ promised that the apostles would sit on thrones to judge Israel, and also in the parable were he says, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master’ (matt. 25:23). The saints are certainly set over much in God’s Kingdom!
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