Catechism of the Catholic Church Paragraph 841?!?

[firstmode]

What is up with this??

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

 

[firstmode]

• 839 “Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways.”[325] The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,[326] “the first to hear the Word of God.”[327] The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,[328] “for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.”[329]
  • 840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.
  • 841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”[330]
  • 842 The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race: All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .[331]
  • 843 "The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as ‘a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.’

 

[chrisse]

What is up with this??

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

There is no question that there are muslims to whom YHWH’s grace and love is True. They, however, do not adhere to Islam other than by external circumstances. They dare not expose their disbelief in mohammet or are in ignorance of what Islam really is, but know YHWH.

 

[IrishYanksFan]

but those who have been exposed to the Gospel and to the teachings of the Church and willfully continue to live outside of it cannot be saved.

If they could then what’s the point of the Church? After the Resurrection Jesus could’ve just said, “okay I’ve paid your wages for sin go back to what you were doing before I came.”

I’m not a Feeneyite but any means but I believe that baptism of desire and invincible ignorance only apply to those with literally zero exposure to Christianity or the Gospels (e.g. people who lived in 2nd century Japan, etc.)

 

[1ke]

firstmode,

What about paragraph 841, and those surrounding it, is unclear to you?

 

[ralphinal]

but those who have been exposed to the Gospel and to the teachings of the Church and willfully continue to live outside of it cannot be saved.

If they could then what’s the point of the Church? After the Resurrection Jesus could’ve just said, “okay I’ve paid your wages for sin go back to what you were doing before I came.”

I’m not a Feeneyite but any means but I believe that baptism of desire and invincible ignorance only apply to those with literally zero exposure to Christianity or the Gospels (e.g. people who lived in 2nd century Japan, etc.)

There are modern people that I would understand it applying to. I agree that it is rare, but not impossible.

 

[Badaliyyah]

What is up with this??

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

this is just a restatement of Nostra Aetate from Vatican II.

salaam.

 

[Hypothesis]

Paragraph 841 is just simply heresy, plain and simple.

According to Jesus those who reject him are condemned. According to numerous teachings from the Church those who reject Jesus are condemned. Muslims clearly reject Jesus. Just that fresh air from Vatican II stinking yet again.

 

[ralphinal]

Paragraph 841 is just simply heresy, plain and simple.

According to Jesus those who reject him are condemned. According to numerous teachings from the Church those who reject Jesus are condemned. Muslims clearly reject Jesus. Just that fresh air from Vatican II stinking yet again.

Do they know Jesus to reject him?

 

[Hypothesis]

Mark 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven: Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

Sura 23:91 No son did Allah beget, nor is there any god along with Him: (if there were many gods), behold, each god would have taken away what he had created, and some would have lorded it over others! Glory to Allah. (He is free) from the (sort of) things they attribute to Him!

1Corinthians 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified: unto the Jews indeed a stumblingblock, and unto the Gentiles foolishness:

Sura 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not

Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema.
Galatians 1:9 As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema.

Would you call Islam preaching another gospel? According to Jesus, Paul and the Holy Catholic Church (pre-Vatican II), let Muhammad be anathema.

 

[ralphinal]

Mark 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven: Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

Sura 23:91 No son did Allah beget, nor is there any god along with Him: (if there were many gods), behold, each god would have taken away what he had created, and some would have lorded it over others! Glory to Allah. (He is free) from the (sort of) things they attribute to Him!

1Corinthians 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified: unto the Jews indeed a stumblingblock, and unto the Gentiles foolishness:

Sura 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not

Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema.
Galatians 1:9 As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema.

Would you call Islam preaching another gospel? According to Jesus, Paul and the Holy Catholic Church (pre-Vatican II), let Muhammad be anathema.

Are you willing to say that ALL Muslims know the Truth of Jesus Christ and not the lie of Isa? And that those who are Muslim KNOWINGLY prefer the LIE of Islam to the TRUTH of JEsus Christ?

 

[Contarini]

but those who have been exposed to the Gospel and to the teachings of the Church and willfully continue to live outside of it cannot be saved.

If they could then what’s the point of the Church?

So in your opinion the only point of the Church is to provide “fire insurance” against hell? That whole mystical body of Christ idea doesn’t float your boat?

Edwin

 

[Hypothesis]

Are you willing to say that ALL Muslims know the Truth of Jesus Christ and not the lie of Isa? And that those who are Muslim KNOWINGLY prefer the LIE of Islam to the TRUTH of JEsus Christ?

I am willing to say that paragraph 841 that says ‘muslims worship the same God as us’ is heresy.

I couldn’t go so far to say ‘ALL’ muslims because that would require me to know every muslim that has ever lived, and that would be to many people to know.

I stand by what our Lord said, Unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of heaven.

I will not believe the modernistic, liberal approach of making everyone feel warm and fuzzy inside. ‘It dont matter what you believe ********’

Jesus was quite clear. And I would go so far to say this, Muslims today are quite familiar with what the church teaches, because in most of their countries it is illegal to accept it, and if you were to be a law abiding citizen you would more than likely know what is illegal in your country. And knowing what is illegal you would read the law and ask why is that illegal, and hence you would know what Christianity teaches.

 

[ralphinal]

I am willing to say that paragraph 841 that says ‘muslims worship the same God as us’ is heresy.

I couldn’t go so far to say ‘ALL’ muslims because that would require me to know every muslim that has ever lived, and that would be to many people to know.

I stand by what our Lord said, Unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of heaven.

I will not believe the modernistic, liberal approach of making everyone feel warm and fuzzy inside. ‘It dont matter what you believe ********’

Jesus was quite clear. And I would go so far to say this, Muslims today are quite familiar with what the church teaches, because in most of their countries it is illegal to accept it, and if you were to be a law abiding citizen you would more than likely know what is illegal in your country. And knowing what is illegal you would read the law and ask why is that illegal, and hence you would know what Christianity teaches.

The Church does not say that they worship the same God. It says they PROFESS to worship the same God. IF you look deeper into the Church’s teachings, the Allah of Islam is considered a limited and flawed understanding of GOd.

And, just because teaching the faith is a crime does not mean that the actual faith is listed. All that it says is that it is illeagle to try to convert them, or for them to convert. I assure you, they have no concept of what we teach. Just talk to them about the Trinity.

 

[Hypothesis]

The Church does not say that they worship the same God. It says they PROFESS to worship the same God. IF you look deeper into the Church’s teachings, the Allah of Islam is considered a limited and flawed understanding of GOd.

And, just because teaching the faith is a crime does not mean that the actual faith is listed. All that it says is that it is illeagle to try to convert them, or for them to convert. I assure you, they have no concept of what we teach. Just talk to them about the Trinity.

The church makes it sound as though they are teaching ‘the plan of salvation includes the muslims’…meaning that Muslims will be saved.

If they just meant ‘included in the plan’ then they were ignorant to say such a thing, because the entire human race is included in the plan of salvation.

But they adamantly oppose the Trinity don’t they

 

[ralphinal]

But they adamantly oppose the Trinity don’t they

They oppose what they claim it to be, which is three gods. They have no concept of what it actually is. They keep refering to where Muhammed said do not make a partner for God. I have yet to meet a Muslim on here who can cite what the teaching is.

 

[Hypothesis]

They oppose what they claim it to be, which is three gods. They have no concept of what it actually is. They keep refering to where Muhammed said do not make a partner for God. I have yet to meet a Muslim on here who can cite what the teaching is.

I would be willing to bet that if you asked any Muslim if they believed Jesus Christ was the son of the living God, then they would say “No I do not.” And by that they would be rejecting him.

 

[ralphinal]

I would be willing to bet that if you asked any Muslim if they believed Jesus Christ was the son of the living God, then they would say “No I do not.” And by that they would be rejecting him.

If you asked them that, what they hear is “Do you believe that God had sex with Mary and their son is Jesus?” Is that the question?

Just talk to some and see…

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Interesting discussion guys.

For those non-Catholic Christians, do you believe that Jewish people and Christians worship the same God?

God bless

 

[Hypothesis]

If you asked them that, what they hear is “Do you believe that God had sex with Mary and their son is Jesus?” Is that the question?

Just talk to some and see…

I have attempted to explain Jesus to some Muslims before, and the ones I talked to about it were very hostile. If they refuse to hear its the same as rejecting.

Matthew 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words: going forth out of that house or city shake off the dust from your feet.
Matthew 10:15 Amen I say to you, it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.