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thistle
Guest
Why is that a problem?
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Judas_Thaddeus
Guest
God does not create a person and assigns them the destiny of Hell for no reason.
God wants all in Heaven, but God will judge us based on our choices.
Paul means that God has already decided, having foreknowledge, but that’s not the
same as God creating us TO GO to Heaven or Hell, God doesn’t work like that.
It’s not like God creates someone saying, “This person would look great in Hell,” no,
God creates, knows the fate of everything based on what the creation does, and de-
cides ahead of time BASED ON what the creation has done.
Let me say again: God does not create anyone with the expressed purpose of assigning their fate
to either Heaven or Hell, God wants All in Heaven, but not all are going to choose that way, which
God is already aware of.
THAT is how you harmonize Paul’s writing on
predestination and the Catechism’s teaching
on predestination.
Predestination, in the Calvinist sense, is a heresy.
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Aloysium
Guest
:twocents:
Our destiny is to be Home with God. He calls us all, albeit in different ways, to Him, to this destiny.
We may be “predestined” for heaven, but we do not all choose to follow Him.
He knows the outcome because He exists at, creating each and every moment in time.
In time, we are warned when necessary, as was Cain, in order that we might choose to love.
To us the past is dead, unchangeable.
It is not that way to God; in eternity, all is present, all is alive and now to Him.
There is no future for God, no done deals; in time we choose and He is present in every moment.
Since He is one, He knows it all.
This is pretty amazing!!
Our destiny is to be Home with God. He calls us all, albeit in different ways, to Him, to this destiny.
We may be “predestined” for heaven, but we do not all choose to follow Him.
He knows the outcome because He exists at, creating each and every moment in time.
In time, we are warned when necessary, as was Cain, in order that we might choose to love.
To us the past is dead, unchangeable.
It is not that way to God; in eternity, all is present, all is alive and now to Him.
There is no future for God, no done deals; in time we choose and He is present in every moment.
Since He is one, He knows it all.
This is pretty amazing!!
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fhansen
Guest
Paul, as well as other writers of both OT and NT scripture , said a lot of things-more than anyone else in his case. He can also easily be misunderstood, as Peter tells us in 2 Peter 3:16. The proper perspective on predestination is authoritatively given by the church in the Catechism. His “predestination” is actually based on His foreknowledge of our choices.
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PeaceInChrist
Guest
Thanks for that article. I had read one that gave a good summary of the history of the Banez/Molina debates and the different acceptable views on predestination.
What I am seeing, though, in this thread, is that many Catholics seem to think predestination means ‘foreknowledge’ alone. This is false. Please see the link in the post I quoted, and the Catholic Encyclopedia article on predestination. Predestination is taught by the Catholic Church, and is not limited to God’s foreknowledge alone. Also google the Summa and predestination.
Edit: here is the Summa on predestination - newadvent.org/summa/1023.htm
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Usagi
Guest
Not quite. Predestination is a truth of the Faith, but so is free will. There have been many ways of attempting to reconcile those in Christian history, at least two of which are approved Catholic tthinking. The one thing that the Catechism rejects is the idea that God actively wills some souls to be damned from the moment of their creation. God’s ideal will would be for every soul or spirit ever created to end up in Heaven, even though He knows that won’t happen in practice. God would forgive Satan if Satan would let Him.
Usagi
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TRH1292
Guest
The Church does not authoritatively interpret predestination solely in terms of foreknowledge.
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fhansen
Guest
As long as concepts don’t conflict with these that are accepted and officially being taught as Church doctrine:
**600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: “In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.” For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.
1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:
Father, accept this offering
from your whole family.
Grant us your peace in this life,
save us from final damnation,
and count us among those you have chosen.**
Man’s will is always involved to one degree or another, and God desires that all be saved.
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Contarini
Guest
No, it’s not that simple. Predestination is not just foreknowledge–it’s God directing us toward our final end, which is union with him. Some theologians have held that predestination is based on foreknowledge, and that may be the majority opinion these days, but it’s not the traditional one in the West, and some folks of a Thomist persuasion think it’s heretical.
Historically, there are two major options in Western Catholicism:
- Thomism, which is close to Calvinism but maintains a pretty sharp distinction between predestination (which is not based on God’s foreknowledge or on anything in the creature) and reprobation (which is purely negative–those whom God has not predestined will sin and fail to repent and thus deserve to be condemned). Thomists distinguish between “sufficient” and “efficient” grace–everyone gets “sufficient” grace but only the elect get “efficient” grace. This is a highly technical and abstruse doctrine and seems like hair-splitting to a lot of folks, including me.
- Molinism, which teaches that God uses his “middle knowledge” (of what people would to in particular circumstances) to ensure that the elect are saved without violating anyone’s free will. This is the most popular option these days, and as I said is often interpreted in an “Arminian” way to eliminate the idea that God unconditionally predestines certain people.
Edwin
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steve_b
Guest
Predestined ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=predestined&xsubmit=Search&s=SS
Predestines ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=predestines&xsubmit=Search&s=SS
Predestination ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=predestination&xsubmit=Search&s=SS
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James82
Guest
Predestinarianism is a heresy that the Church has been playing whack a’ mole with since the 5th century I believe.
Now, it cannot be denied that Calvin (who systematized a theology around predestination) was a very intelligent if not genius of a man. But it was putting that heady stuff into doctrine that is wrong. It was he and his ilk who have promulgated and passed on this nightmarish theology since the 15-16th century. Unfortunately, many evangelicals and fundamentalists use this (predestinarianism) combined with sola fide as some sort of warped foundation from which to preach from. I do not speak out of ignorance, the majority of my life has been among protesters protesting.
Personally I find it an absolutely revolting (if not diabolical) doctrine to govern oneself by. This, and the denial of the Sacraments, for some reason, just boil my blood.
Now, it cannot be denied that Calvin (who systematized a theology around predestination) was a very intelligent if not genius of a man. But it was putting that heady stuff into doctrine that is wrong. It was he and his ilk who have promulgated and passed on this nightmarish theology since the 15-16th century. Unfortunately, many evangelicals and fundamentalists use this (predestinarianism) combined with sola fide as some sort of warped foundation from which to preach from. I do not speak out of ignorance, the majority of my life has been among protesters protesting.
Personally I find it an absolutely revolting (if not diabolical) doctrine to govern oneself by. This, and the denial of the Sacraments, for some reason, just boil my blood.
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James82
Guest
Oxymoron
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pacloc
Guest
This is one of those subjects you must take in faith. I have heard that men have gone insane trying to understand predestination. The facts we have from the Bible and the Church are that God has created man good and capable of obeying. That God has given us the choice to go along with our intended purpose, or to reject it and reap the consequences of death. That God has given us Himself, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit so that all men might be saved. He is the only One who knows who is saved, not us or the angels. The tricky part is that we also believe God lives outside of time and knows all things and is in all things and if he ever ceased to know something it would disappear. So we also know that before he ever made Adam and Eve, he knew that they and their offspring would be in Heaven, including the elect. So He uses this all knowing power to make sure of his will, and shows us this power through prophecy. But we are certain that our sin is our own, so we deserve death and hell. We are not predestined there. It is impossible to know this as mortal finite men, just as in understanding fully the Trinity.
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James82
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