Catechism/teaching question

[lucky4075]

Hello all, Ive posted a few times mostly over in the moral theology section. Im trying to discern wether or not I am called into the Coast Guard and I have a question or two.

Ive read over the Catechism section regarding the 5th commandment and I have been wondering- if its murder (intentional/premeditated homicide) that the commandment prohibits, why doesnt the catechism just say ‘thou shall not murder’ instead of going off into multiple sections about exceptions to ‘thou shall not kill’ which makes it a bit confusing?

Ive done an exhaustive research about all of this(looked up the original hebrew/greek words in the commandment, researched early church teaching, council of nicea, almost anything you can imagine.) Ive just lost alot of sleep wondering about all of this/ if Id be forgiven if I had to kill someone on duty.

thanks for any answers.

 

[Cachonga]

I’m not sure what the catechism says about this, but certainly God instructed Israel to destroy the inhaibitants of the land when He brought them into Canaan. Israel has also been involved in plenty of wars (recorded for us in Scriptures), and not once (that I’m aware of) is anyone condemned for killing someone during a battle (OK, maybe the guy who claimed to have killed King Saul, but the guy was an Israelite, and it was not a usual “combat” situation).

Moving to the NT we see Roman Soldiers asking John the Baptist what they should do, he never told them not to kill anyone. (As an added thought, considering where he was baptizing people, was John a Southern Baptist?)

Bottom line (as I understand it from Scripture), if you’re in the military, it is expected that you may have to kill someone at some point in time, and that is OK with God (jey, even Heaven has an Army)!

 

[mark_a]

(As an added thought, considering where he was baptizing people, was John a Southern Baptist?)

I cannot imagine in my wildest dreams a Baptist responding to Mary’s voice the way John the Baptist did:

Luke 1:41

When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb. . . . .

 

[Iron_Donkey]

I think the relevant portion of the Catechism can be found here: scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a5.htm#2302.

In particular:

However, “as long as the danger of war persists and there is no international authority with the necessary competence and power, governments cannot be denied the right of lawful self-defense, once all peace efforts have failed.”

And also

The prohibition of murder does not abrogate the right to render an unjust aggressor unable to inflict harm. Legitimate defense is a grave duty for whoever is responsible for the lives of others or the common good.

I only skimmed the rest of that section, it mostly seems to detail when war is and is not permissible, and some some stuff on conduct during war.

As a practical note: there is a Archdioceses of the Military, with it’s own bishop etc. This signifies, if not necessarily the Church’s support for all that the U.S. Military does, at least its recognition that such a body is valid.

See: milarch.org/site/c.dwJXKgOUJiIaG/b.6287817/k.3DFD/Home__Archdiocese_for_the_Military.htm

 

[Dave_Noonan]

Hello all, Ive posted a few times mostly over in the moral theology section. Im trying to discern wether or not I am called into the Coast Guard and I have a question or two.

Ive read over the Catechism section regarding the 5th commandment and I have been wondering- if its murder (intentional/premeditated homicide) that the commandment prohibits, why doesnt the catechism just say ‘thou shall not murder’ instead of going off into multiple sections about exceptions to ‘thou shall not kill’ which makes it a bit confusing?

Ive done an exhaustive research about all of this(looked up the original hebrew/greek words in the commandment, researched early church teaching, council of nicea, almost anything you can imagine.) Ive just lost alot of sleep wondering about all of this/ if Id be forgiven if I had to kill someone on duty.

thanks for any answers.

There have been many threads here about the 5th commandment and the “kill” versus “murder” issue. Passages like Numbers 35:27 show pretty clearly that the Hebrew verb means “kill” and not “murder.”

There are also lots of quotes from the early church fathers on the issue (including the general issue of violent resistance) that I’m sure you’ve run across in your research. The earliest ones seem to indicate that military service among Christians was deeply discouraged, probably the most famous quote being from Hippolytus of Rome:

“A soldier of the civil authority must be taught not to kill men and to refuse to do so if he is commanded, and to refuse to take an oath. If he is unwilling to comply, he must be rejected for baptism. A military commander or civic magistrate must resign or be rejected. If a believer seeks to become a soldier, he must be rejected, for he has despised God.”

One can find similar justification from Justin Martyr and Tertullian and (I think) Ignatius. These are all easily locatable on the web.

However, as time went along, military service became more acceptable for Christians and during the crusades, confessors were even provided on the battlefield for those who killed.

But I think it’s also important to note that any sin can be forgiven.

 

[lucky4075]

There have been many threads here about the 5th commandment and the “kill” versus “murder” issue. Passages like Numbers 35:27 show pretty clearly that the Hebrew verb means “kill” and not “murder.”

Actually if you do a google search on this the hebrew used in the 10 commandments was ratsach which means murder. There are multiple words in hebrew for kill and the circumstances in which it is used- ratsach means murder.

 

[Dave_Noonan]

There have been many threads here about the 5th commandment and the “kill” versus “murder” issue. Passages like Numbers 35:27 show pretty clearly that the Hebrew verb means “kill” and not “murder.”

Actually if you do a google search on this the hebrew used in the 10 commandments was ratsach which means murder. There are multiple words in hebrew for kill and the circumstances in which it is used- ratsach means murder.

Actually, ratsach can’t mean “murder,” a word which in English has particular legal implications. This verb is used to describe the actions of the legally sanctioned executioner in verses like Nu 35:21 and 35:21. Regardless of what you think of the death penalty I don’t know of any culture that would equate a legally sanctioned execution with the criminal act of “murder.”

 

[fred_conty]

There have been many threads here about the 5th commandment and the “kill” versus “murder” issue. Passages like Numbers 35:27 show pretty clearly that the Hebrew verb means “kill” and not “murder.”

Actually if you do a google search on this the hebrew used in the 10 commandments was ratsach which means murder. There are multiple words in hebrew for kill and the circumstances in which it is used- ratsach means murder.

Hi,
None of this stopped St. Joan of Arc.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I think the relevant portion of the Catechism can be found here: scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a5.htm#2302.

The section just before one that you quoted, also makes a lot of sense to me:

2263 The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. "The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one’s own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not.

2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one’s own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:

If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful. . . . Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one’s own life than of another’s.

Alan