Catechism vs Scripture

[nlm]

Thank you for clarifying your beliefs, so when you say…“Scripture says a man must be born of water and of the spirit to enter into heaven”.–That doesn’t mean Baptism to you, right? Because it does to us. But you may have known that already, you didn’t ask, but I thought I’d let you know in case you didn’t.

However, you forgot a question…

What about this one?

,since the Church existed before the Bible was compiled, I’m just wondering
what you think happened to all those Christians that died for their belief in Jesus when
they didn’t even have a Bible. I mean seriously, how in the world do YOU think that they
even knew about Jesus without a Bible?

I did not forget this question, I was called away from the computer, came back and submitted my reply before realizing I had not answered it. Those Christians were taught orally by the church via sermons etc. Remember even had there been Bibles, there were those who could not read or write.That is the reason the church rang the church bell and the people stopped work and recited the Angelus at noon each day. It was a form of prayer for those people. Stained glass windows were also used to spread the scriptural message as well. It is wrong to believe that one is saved by believing in the Bible ONLY, especially if you have never seen one.If they accepted Jesus as their personal savior, based on their understanding , they would be saved.
By the way, I am VERY aware of what Catholics believe including baptism. I was catholic for 51 of my 57 years. I was also a monk in a religious order so please do not underestimate my understanding of your denomination.NLM

 

[Anna_Scott]

I did not forget this question, I was called away from the computer, came back and submitted my reply before realizing I had not answered it. Those Christians were taught orally by the church via sermons etc. Remember even had there been Bibles, there were those who could not read or write.That is the reason the church rang the church bell and the people stopped work and recited the Angelus at noon each day. It was a form of prayer for those people. Stained glass windows were also used to spread the scriptural message as well. It is wrong to believe that one is saved by believing in the Bible ONLY, especially if you have never seen one.If they accepted Jesus as their personal savior, based on their understanding , they would be saved.
By the way, I am VERY aware of what Catholics believe including baptism. I was catholic for 51 of my 57 years. I was also a monk in a religious order so please do not underestimate my understanding of your denomination.NLM

There’s a whole lot of conversion going on these days. I’ve met a surprising number of people on these forums who are either Protestant converting to Catholicism or Orthodox or Episcopal and visa versa. Do you think our beliefs are more alike than we thought?

Even my Jewish friends have had a surprising number of Christians converting to Judaism.

Seems like so many people are questioning, myself included. Anyone have thoughts on this?

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Dear NLM and Anna- I respect your beliefs and I am greatful for your respect of ours. If I came across as harsh last night it was directed more towards the attacks on the faith that were being lodged by others. I am glad we can all talk about these things with a gentle spirit. I think all we can do is share, and pursue truth sincerely. God will make it all work out. Oh- and of course, pray for each other. And by that I mean pray that God will continue to lead us down the path of salvation and grace.

Anna- keep reading about Church history. Asking questions and seeking answers is NOT wrong. The Catholic Church’s history is an open book. It may be checkered, it may be filled with human failings, but it’s all there, for all to see. Empires have come and gone, kingdoms have risen and fell, but the Church has survived all it. The only explanation I can see is that God has preserved it as He promised. Even if you don’t believe in Catholic teaching, Church history is YOUR history, too. It’s interesting. I recommend Jergen’s The Faith of the Early Fathers. My sister, a Baptist, had a homeschooling text book that included writings of the early church fathers. I was thrilled!!! But after paging through it, I noticed something… all references to the eucharist and eating “the body and blood of our lord” were omitted! Anything that sounded too “Catholic” was left out! So be sure you read the source material and not just snippets. You will be shocked to see that in the first and second centuries the church was extremely Catholic… even used the word “Catholic” to describe itself, and was very much about the eucharist… just like we are today.

NLM- I am going to log off and compose my answer to you so that I don’t lose my work again! I haven’t forgotten, and will have it either this evening or tomorrow (I may have to work on it on my lunch hour tomorrow!)

In the words of Tiny Tim: “God Bless us, Every One!” Judie

JudieK:

You were not harsh in your responses last night. JesusOnlyWay hit the forums with a vengeance. I think he made a total of 4 Posts before being banned. I am praying for this person. I could feel the hate coming through his posts. I don’t know what he expected to accomplish. I guess we will not know why he feels the way he does. I hope that he is delivered from whatever religious group has filled him with so much anti-Catholic doctrine.

I believe that with all that is wrong in the world; Christians need, more than ever, to find common ground. Just know that not all Protestants are the same. Sometimes, I encounter “Protestant bashing” on the Forums. I think there are a few Protestants who give us all a bad name. That is very unfortunate.

I think we all need to just keep talking with one another, and pray for one another-as you said.

I will continue my studies of Church History. Thanks for the advice on Jergen’s The Faith of the Early Fathers. I have received so many good recommendations on books. I need to get busy.

I have learned that sometimes it is very enlightening to go outside my religion for the purpose of study. A Protestant can’t really tell me what Catholics believe–though as you know, many will try. I hope Catholic Forum Members will ask direct questions, so that the Protestant faith is not misunderstood either.

Continuing Life’s Journey with Christ,
Anna

 

[allhers]

I think what happened was that by creating the catechism the church knew some of the people would not read the Bible, others would, but would not be able to interprete it while others such as children and young people would read only the catechism
When you look at catechisms from years ago, many of the answers are given by saying something such as " because it is tradition or because the Pope says". It was then taken at face value and became what people believed. Sad really.
I would suggest that one does not get into heaven by living by " sacred tradition" nor by" magisterial teachings" but by the inspired Word of God. Nothing else.As a child and young adult in school receiving his early christian education from nuns, I was NEVER suggested to me that I read the Bible. Why, because I might ask difficult questions. I might ask for scriptural references for certain points found in the catechism which only gave sacred tradition as the reason we had to do certain things. Show me a scriptural reference for the number of hours one must fast prior to communion. Show me in scripture where it says an un baptised infant will never see the face of God.Show me where it says that if a person commits suicide he is to be deprived of a Christian burial.We have no idea the relationship this individual had with his God. The church was not punishing the deceased but his family and making an example of the deceased. How Christian is that? The catechism spoke of all these issues over the years including when I went to school which was not exactly in the dark ages.Those teachings based on nothing but tradition are still well etched in many catholic minds today. How terrible a thing. Live and die by the written word of God and you will have nothing to worry about. You can’t go wrong if you live by the word. NLM

Wow, your above post - post # 73 is shocking after this one. First you say that all you need is the inspired word of God (I bolded that above from your earlier post and then in post 73 you say that would be wrong. ) Sounds a little confused.

So, may I ask why you walked away? Plus, you, who claim that you once use to be a monk, even you ought to know that the Catholic Church isn’t a denomination. (as you also stated in your post #73.)

 

[allhers]

I did not forget this question, I was called away from the computer, came back and submitted my reply before realizing I had not answered it. Those Christians were taught orally by the church via sermons etc. Remember even had there been Bibles, there were those who could not read or write.That is the reason the church rang the church bell and the people stopped work and recited the Angelus at noon each day. It was a form of prayer for those people. Stained glass windows were also used to spread the scriptural message as well. It is wrong to believe that one is saved by believing in the Bible ONLY, especially if you have never seen one.If they accepted Jesus as their personal savior, based on their understanding , they would be saved.
By the way, I am VERY aware of what Catholics believe including baptism. I was catholic for 51 of my 57 years. I was also a monk in a religious order so please do not underestimate my understanding of your denomination.NLM

See here above? I bolded that part too, where you said just the opposite. Are you confused or are you trying to confuse or are you getting your answers that you post from someone else depending on which question you are answering?

The truth never changes, it doesn’t change if you leave the Church either. You are free to reject the Truth of course, but, please, at least more fully explain or else pay attention to what you said earlier because its hard enough having a conversation online without having to explain every post I post and why I do it based on what you said earlier and then having you refute your own words. Okay?

 

[nlm]

There’s a whole lot of conversion going on these days. I’ve met a surprising number of people on these forums who are either Protestant converting to Catholicism or Orthodox or Episcopal and visa versa. Do you think our beliefs are more alike than we thought?

Even my Jewish friends have had a surprising number of Christians converting to Judaism.

Seems like so many people are questioning, myself included. Anyone have thoughts on this?

Anna

Hello Anna, Yes there are many conversions these days. I can only speak about my own experience. Having been catholic for over 50 years, there came a day ,as an adult, I started asking questions and looking for reasonable answers. I was looking for answers based on scripture which is after all, our “guide"on this journey. When I started realizing that many of the things which I was expected to believe, buy into or quietly accept and many of the things which,if not done properly, adhered to etc. were causing me to sin and have to ask forgiveness for were based on nothing more than statements made by the Pope or statements which amounted to no more than,“that’s the way we have done it for years”, I started to ask myself, “what is going on here”? Let’s leave the issue of Papal infallibility out of the argument for a minute and look at leaders of other denominations. Statements coming from the top and not grounded in scripture would not fly. That is one of the biggest differences I have seen since converting…the constant referring to scripture. Yes, the readings at mass are from the Bible of course but they are sometimes, on Sunday, followed by what I consider a very brief sermon and then let’s move on. We are told that we must be nourished by the WORD of God.As a layperson, I need a Pastor who explains the scriptures, who shows me how to apply them to MY life and how Jesus expected me to live based on His words. I get that at my church.My experience in the catholic church, and I was guilty of it also, was that if a sermon lasted more than 12 to 15 minutes, people labeled that Priest as long winded. Why, because there was more to come and we should be out in 30 to 40 minutes.I have attended 20 minute masses, on Sunday because it was hot. What’s the rush? For most, not all, but most of those sitting in those pews, that 30 to 40 minutes or 20 minutes is all the nourishing their spiritual lives will get all week. That is simply NOT enough.I tried to live a good catholic life,I really did but when I started to ask what I felt were reasonable, logical questions and the answers I started getting were seldom if ever based on scripture I started to question things even more.There were also answers which were based on VERY slim scriptural references.One had to REALLY stretch one’s imagination to “make it fit”. That is just not good enough.If I need to be nourished throughout my journey on this earth,My food MUST come from the Word of God.I hesitate to compare our denominational practices but in an effort to show another side of how it can be, I will. Our denomination has a book called the Discipline . I always refer to it as"the ground rules”.You may quickly tell me it must be similar to the catechism.It is in many ways. It contains the Articles of Religion section which speaks on issues such as Faith in the Trinity, God’s purpose for humanity and so on. Each of these issues is followed by not one or two but several scriptural references to support the statement made. I will give you another example.The section dealing with" Repentance and Faith is followed by 39 scriptural references.Each topic is discussed VERY briefly by the denomination but supported VERY heavily by scripture.We NEVER are made to accept anything related to faith or various practices within the church without being given at least one scriptural reference.Or at least that has been my experience to date. Is that not the way it should be? When I ask a question now, my Pastor usually reaches for his Bible and says, here is the answer to that question. Please don’t think for one minute that all is perfect or all is exactly the way it should be within our denomination because trust me it is not. Why, because it is made up of men and women and children who are on a journey. We are imperfect beings but have a common goal of traveling together in hopes of being together in the next world.WE and especially I have our faults and have MUCH to change in our personal and collective lives but we are working on it while being focused on the Word of God. Our sermons last about 30 to 40 minutes. However that is not the only "feeding"of the Word we receive all week. I attend a Bible study group one evening a week. I also read the Bible daily. only for a few minutes usually but it allows one to be better focused for the day.As you see, none of this is “rocket science”.It is ,I believe, living the journey the way we were meant to live it.So, after this long winded “sermon” I believe there are many reasons people have left the catholic church as I did. I would venture a guess that some of them left because they could no longer accept the explanations being given when they asked questions.Let me give you one last example of an explanation I was given by a priest one time. I was at the funeral home visiting. An elderly 92 year old lady had died. The place was full and a priest happened to be there at the time.I noticed that people were buying mass cards by the dozen.I asked the priest, a man I knew well, how was it that Mary had died and was judged three days ago and still all these masses will be said for her soul in the next weeks and months. Is it not to late now? This was his answer. When Mary died three days ago and appeared before God to be judged, God already knew of all these masses which would be bought and all the prayers which, for years to come will be offered for the repose of her soul and He took all that into consideration when He pronounced His judgement on her.This explanation left me numb to say the least. Let me ask you. What do you think of that answer? What would you think if a priest explained it to you that way? Enough said for now. God bless your day .NLM

 

[nlm]

See here above? I bolded that part too, where you said just the opposite. Are you confused or are you trying to confuse or are you getting your answers that you post from someone else depending on which question you are answering?

The truth never changes, it doesn’t change if you leave the Church either. You are free to reject the Truth of course, but, please, at least more fully explain or else pay attention to what you said earlier because its hard enough having a conversation online without having to explain every post I post and why I do it based on what you said earlier and then having you refute your own words. Okay?

These two statements are not contradictory at all.In # 76, I say that one gets to heaven by the Bible, the Word of God. That is true.Providing one does what it says in regard to salvation.
In the second statement I say that one does not get saved by the Bible…ONLY. Don’t forget the word ONLY please.
The first statement says that the Bible will tell you that you must accept Jesus as your personal savior.
The second statement says that if I sit, read the Bible and not act on it’s message of salvation then reading a book ONLY will not get me saved.
There is no contradiction at all.NLM

 

[nlm]

Wow, your above post - post # 73 is shocking after this one. First you say that all you need is the inspired word of God (I bolded that above from your earlier post and then in post 73 you say that would be wrong. ) Sounds a little confused.

So, may I ask why you walked away? Plus, you, who claim that you once use to be a monk, even you ought to know that the Catholic Church isn’t a denomination. (as you also stated in your post #73.)

If the Catholic Church is not a denomination then what is is? If you refer to Statistics Canada you will find the Top 10 Religious Denominations listed. Roman Catholics are #1 followed by Protestants as # 2. I guess Stats Canada were also not aware of this. NLM

 

[JRKH]

Last night, I was very upset by JesusOnlyWay’s attacks on the Catholic Church. I was still thinking about it when I woke up this morning. These forums are a good place for us to learn from one another, and discuss the issues. They are not a place one would expect to find hateful attacks.

JesusOnlyWay’s posts only added to my concern about some of the extreme fundamentalist beliefs emerging in the Protestant Sector—especially when they lead to hateful attacks on those who disagree with them. Even being Protestant, I have been on the receiving end of such attacks.

(snip)

May God Remind Us All of His Great Love–and His Commandment to Love One Another,
Anna

Anna -
I too was upset by the posts you mention but have learned to respond in as gentle a manner as possible to such attacks.
But I’d like to ask you - and other Non Catholic Christians here how do you defend against such a person. If the Holy Spirit and the Bible is all one needs, then how do you tell someone like JesusOnlyWay that he is wrong?
You recognize that such attacks and holding such positions are counterproductive, but who is to say - who is to determine - who is right, you and your interpretation or your vitriolic friend and their interpretation?

I ask because I have had conversions here with people who, hold to a “Sola Scriptura - Spriit Led Interpretation of the Bible” and there is nothing - no reasoned argument that I could make that would convince them that MY “Spirit Led Journey and interpretation of The Bible” is just a valid as theirs. To them I was wrong and that is that.

I think that this is the thing that many catholics struggle with. We give our Dear Lord Great Love and Credit for the Wisdom to establish an authoritative Body on Earth to administer His Kingdom while He is away. A body with the authority to settle questions of faith and morals for all of us, thus keeping us “Of one Mind” (at least doctrinally). NCC’s on the other hand cannot effectively speak with such authority. If you don’t like JesusOnlyWay’s interpretation, then you do not attend his church, but youe church community cannot declare his church community wrong and outside of the true Christian Church.

Sorry for the vent - I just keep trying to understand.

So how do you deal with these hateful “Christians”.

peace
James

 

[wmscott]

Yes, the readings at mass are from the Bible of course but they are sometimes, on Sunday, followed by what I consider a very brief sermon and then let’s move on. We are told that we must be nourished by the WORD of God.As a layperson, I need a Pastor who explains the scriptures, who shows me how to apply them to MY life and how Jesus expected me to live based on His words. I get that at my church.My experience in the catholic church, and I was guilty of it also, was that if a sermon lasted more than 12 to 15 minutes, people labeled that Priest as long winded. NLM

My experience has been that there are a lot Priests that during their sermons they do explain the scriptures, and shows how to apply them to our lives and how Jesus expected us to live based on His words. Then there are some who are not very good with public speaking. However, this does not mean that they are not doing their duty to God. We have to remember that Priests are human also, and any one of them will tell you that they are not perfect and are sinners also. We have to give these men credit and respect, because they have a tough job, and trying to please everybody is next to impossible. to you, me, ore another we seem to think that this Priest is lame, there may be a another sitting in the church that day that just may have had a conversion or reconciliation with God because of that Priest being just who he is that day. we are far to judgmental and demanding.

As a Catholic, I see this as approaching the throne of God, there is the scripture readings (Word of God) which is the first half, then there is the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist, the physical presence and receiving of Jesus, body, blood, soul, and divinity. This is what is important. Not the socializing or glad happy music selections. It is not about a popularity contest or whether the Priest is a good public speaker.

If I go to a church where the Priest was lacking in his public speaking and I did not feel that he is explaining the scriptures, and showing how to apply them to our lives and how Jesus expected us to live based on His words. I can go over the readings again and using the catechism, get what the meanings are to be. This puts some of the responsibility on me also to ensure I get out of scriptures what I need. This is active participation in our spiritual life and growth. Just one mans opinion.

 

[nlm]

My experience has been that there are a lot Priests that during their sermons they do explain the scriptures, and shows how to apply them to our lives and how Jesus expected us to live based on His words. Then there are some who are not very good with public speaking. However, this does not mean that they are not doing their duty to God. We have to remember that Priests are human also, and any one of them will tell you that they are not perfect and are sinners also. We have to give these men credit and respect, because they have a tough job, and trying to please everybody is next to impossible. to you, me, ore another we seem to think that this Priest is lame, there may be a another sitting in the church that day that just may have had a conversion or reconciliation with God because of that Priest being just who he is that day. we are far to judgmental and demanding.

As a Catholic, I see this as approaching the throne of God, there is the scripture readings (Word of God) which is the first half, then there is the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist, the physical presence and receiving of Jesus, body, blood, soul, and divinity. This is what is important. Not the socializing or glad happy music selections. It is not about a popularity contest or whether the Priest is a good public speaker.

If I go to a church where the Priest was lacking in his public speaking and I did not feel that he is explaining the scriptures, and showing how to apply them to our lives and how Jesus expected us to live based on His words. I can go over the readings again and using the catechism, get what the meanings are to be. This puts some of the responsibility on me also to ensure I get out of scriptures what I need. This is active participation in our spiritual life and growth. Just one mans opinion.

Your interpretation of what I said is not correct. I was not for one minute commenting on any Priest’s ability to be good at public speaking or not. My point was simply this. The Catholic mass does not offer much time to focus on scripture. That is due to it’s structure NOT to the man up front who indeed is doing his best. Yes, I also have heard my parish Priest apply scripture to our lives but my other point is that the brief time alloted to scripture explanation in the mass is not ,in my opinion ,enough. Yes, I also ,as an individual have the responsability to expand on what is learned at church which is what I spoke about in my thread.

 

[allhers]

These two statements are not contradictory at all.In # 76, I say that one gets to heaven by the Bible, the Word of God. That is true.Providing one does what it says in regard to salvation.
In the second statement I say that one does not get saved by the Bible…ONLY. Don’t forget the word ONLY please.
The first statement says that the Bible will tell you that you must accept Jesus as your personal savior.
The second statement says that if I sit, read the Bible and not act on it’s message of salvation then reading a book ONLY will not get me saved.
There is no contradiction at all.NLM

Well, that isn’t what you said, that is why I questioned you. You originally said in post 55
that it was the Bible only, nothing else. (see my post 76, where I quoted your post 55).

In any case, I am glad that you realize that it isn’t Bible only.

 

[allhers]

If the Catholic Church is not a denomination then what is is? If you refer to Statistics Canada you will find the Top 10 Religious Denominations listed. Roman Catholics are #1 followed by Protestants as # 2. I guess Stats Canada were also not aware of this. NLM

Apparently neither them or you were aware of this.

I find it very difficult to believe that someone who claims that they use to be a Monk in
the Catholic Church could have not known that they could read the Bible on their own, or
that they thought the Cathechism wasn’t accompanied with references to the Bible. Or that they never knew of the difference between the Church and denominations.

No wonder you left, I probably would have too if I had believed all the things you say.

Did you know that Jesus was really present, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Eucharist? I know if nothing else, just for that reason, I’d never leave Him, no matter
what else I thought.

Were you leading a Sacramental life then?

Any Bible study I’ve been to in the Catholic Church has always been accompanied by prayer first too. Their is even a prayer to the Holy Spirit in the front of my Bible just for this
purpose. It’s a Bible that comes from the early 1960’s. I even know it by heart…Come Holy Spirit, fill the hearts of Thy faithful and enkindle in them the fire of Thy love. Send
forth Thy Spirit and they shall be created. And,Thou shall renew the face of the earth.

Let us pray, O God, who didst instruct the hearts of the faithful by the light of the Holy
Spirit, to have a right judgement in all things and ever rejoice in His consolation.
Through Christ our Lord. Amen

 

[allhers]

Let me give you one last example of an explanation I was given by a priest one time. I was at the funeral home visiting. An elderly 92 year old lady had died. The place was full and a priest happened to be there at the time.I noticed that people were buying mass cards by the dozen.I asked the priest, a man I knew well, how was it that Mary had died and was judged three days ago and still all these masses will be said for her soul in the next weeks and months. Is it not to late now? This was his answer. When Mary died three days ago and appeared before God to be judged, God already knew of all these masses which would be bought and all the prayers which, for years to come will be offered for the repose of her soul and He took all that into consideration when He pronounced His judgement on her.This explanation left me numb to say the least. Let me ask you. What do you think of that answer? What would you think if a priest explained it to you that way? Enough said for now. God bless your day .NLM

…I’d like to answer to this, we don’t buy them, we offer a donation and are happy to do so.

I doubt that the Priest used the word bought either, but other than that, his explanation is great.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Anna -
I too was upset by the posts you mention but have learned to respond in as gentle a manner as possible to such attacks.
But I’d like to ask you - and other Non Catholic Christians here how do you defend against such a person. If the Holy Spirit and the Bible is all one needs, then how do you tell someone like JesusOnlyWay that he is wrong?
You recognize that such attacks and holding such positions are counterproductive, but who is to say - who is to determine - who is right, you and your interpretation or your vitriolic friend and their interpretation?

I ask because I have had conversions here with people who, hold to a “Sola Scriptura - Spriit Led Interpretation of the Bible” and there is nothing - no reasoned argument that I could make that would convince them that MY “Spirit Led Journey and interpretation of The Bible” is just a valid as theirs. To them I was wrong and that is that.

I think that this is the thing that many catholics struggle with. We give our Dear Lord Great Love and Credit for the Wisdom to establish an authoritative Body on Earth to administer His Kingdom while He is away. A body with the authority to settle questions of faith and morals for all of us, thus keeping us “Of one Mind” (at least doctrinally). NCC’s on the other hand cannot effectively speak with such authority. If you don’t like JesusOnlyWay’s interpretation, then you do not attend his church, but youe church community cannot declare his church community wrong and outside of the true Christian Church.

Sorry for the vent - I just keep trying to understand.

So how do you deal with these hateful “Christians”.

peace
James

James:

I appreciate your honesty. You have raised some very important questions.

The thing that was so disturbing to me about JesusOnlyWay’s posts was the hateful tone and vehement attacks on Catholicism. There are some Protestant religions that have developed what I would call “anti-doctrines.” They discuss the “evils” of other religions in a way that fosters hate.

In reading JesusOnlyWay’s posts, I noticed little about his beliefs; because his hateful tone drowned out his beliefs about Christianity. Even now, I would have to go back and re-read his posts to tell you what he actually believes.

Regarding your question, “But I’d like to ask you - and other Non Catholic Christians here how do you defend against such a person.”

The irony here is that I have encountered some serious “Protestant bashing” on these Forums–some were just as extreme as JesusOnlyWay’s posts.

There was one particular Thread, entitled “Can I keep My Protestant Bibles?” that was shut down, mid-discussion, because of anti-Protestant rhetoric. A Catholic Forum Member was advocating burning Protestant Bibles. When members (including Catholics) did not agree with him, he said, “Why all the tears shed over burnt literature? Would you feel the same about burning a sexually explicit love novel?”

This Catholic Forum Member was not banned from the Forums, as JesusOnlyWay was. Instead, the Thread was shut down, and all his anti-Protestant Posts were scrubbed from the Thread. The only words of his left on the Thread are quotes in replies of other posters.

After all that, I actually sent him a PM, and told him I didn’t think it was fair that his Posts were removed from the Forum. He asked about appealing; and I told him I remembered reading something in the Forum Rules about appealing decisions of moderators. I really wanted to continue the discussion, even though the things he was saying were offensive.

The anti-Catholic posts of JesusOnlyWay are still on this Thread. Why didn’t the moderators scrub his posts? If anti-Protestant rhetoric is scrubbed from a Thread, why weren’t the ant-Catholic posts scrubbed, when JesusOnlyWay was banned?

So, maybe the question should be, "How do we defend against such a person? I think it is safe to say that there are probably people spouting “anti-doctrines” in every religion. I am in no way trying to create a “tit for tat” discussion. Your questions are insightful and deserve an answer. JesusOnlyWay had a short life of only 4 total posts on the Forum, but his offensive tone did open a serious discussion that may led us all to a better understanding of one another.

I will answer your questions regarding “Sola Scriptura - Spriit Led Interpretation of the Bible,” in my next post.

Again, I appreciate your honesty,
Anna

 

[nlm]

Apparently neither them or you were aware of this.

I find it very difficult to believe that someone who claims that they use to be a Monk in
the Catholic Church could have not known that they could read the Bible on their own, or
that they thought the Cathechism wasn’t accompanied with references to the Bible. Or that they never knew of the difference between the Church and denominations.

No wonder you left, I probably would have too if I had believed all the things you say.

Did you know that Jesus was really present, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Eucharist? I know if nothing else, just for that reason, I’d never leave Him, no matter
what else I thought.

Were you leading a Sacramental life then?

Any Bible study I’ve been to in the Catholic Church has always been accompanied by prayer first too. Their is even a prayer to the Holy Spirit in the front of my Bible just for this
purpose. It’s a Bible that comes from the early 1960’s. I even know it by heart…Come Holy Spirit, fill the hearts of Thy faithful and enkindle in them the fire of Thy love. Send
forth Thy Spirit and they shall be created. And,Thou shall renew the face of the earth.

Let us pray, O God, who didst instruct the hearts of the faithful by the light of the Holy
Spirit, to have a right judgement in all things and ever rejoice in His consolation.
Through Christ our Lord. Amen

Could you please, enlighten me by explaining to me why the Catholic Church is not a denomination and what the differences are? I looked up the definition of denomination in the dictionnary and based on that definition, it clearly is a denomination. I look forward to learning more about these differences.
You seem to doubt my vocation as a monk. Why would I lie about such a thing?
One of the reasons I left the catholic church was that I could not nor had I for many years believed in the actual presence in the Eucharist.Receiving communion became routine for me,something I felt I had to do if I attended mass otherwise I would be judged by some who would see me stay seated rather than go up.I had heard people say things like, " I wonder what he did last night which would prevent him from receiving communion this morning." Wrong reason to receive communion but I am being honest with you.
As for your ability to recite that prayer…good for you.When I pray, I talk to God in a vary personal way.Just as I am talking to you. I do not always use the same words and my words are not fancy or anything like that but I am certain God understands. How am I so certain of that? Because He has answered my prayers.The only prayer I recite and try and do it in a meditative rather than regurgitative manner is the Lord’s Prayer. Because it came to us from Him.God bless your day.NLM

 

[JRKH]

I know your post here is directed to Anna and I do not wish to intrude but I felt obliged to make just a couple of brief points - and just as background, I too was raised catholic, left the Church and have come home.

Hello Anna, Yes there are many conversions these days. I can only speak about my own experience. Having been catholic for over 50 years, there came a day ,as an adult, I started asking questions and looking for reasonable answers.

My first thought here is, by what standard, or by who’s compass do you determine an answer to be “reasonable”. In other words, if I give you a reasonable answer (to me) but it is not a reasonable answer (to you) then is it a reasonable answer??

I was looking for answers based on scripture which is after all, our "guide"on this journey.

And how did you determine which scriptures are the guide on the journey? Are you refering to those in the Holy bible? And then which Bible the 72 book canon of 400 AD and held as sacred by every western Christian for a 1000 years? Or the 66 book canon as determined by the Protestant fathers without council or deliberation?
This is highly important to anyone placing their salvation in the hands of Scripture.

When I started realizing that many of the things which I was expected to believe, buy into or quietly accept and many of the things which,if not done properly, adhered to etc. were causing me to sin and have to ask forgiveness for were based on nothing more than statements made by the Pope or statements which amounted to no more than,“that’s the way we have done it for years”, I started to ask myself, “what is going on here”?

At this point I would say that you were asking some good questions. Of course one would also need to define if one is dealing with Dogmatic beliefs of practices. I will readily admit that these can sometimes beocme confused - even among good catholics.

Let’s leave the issue of Papal infallibility out of the argument for a minute and look at leaders of other denominations. Statements coming from the top and not grounded in scripture would not fly. That is one of the biggest differences I have seen since converting…the constant referring to scripture.

How about statements by the leader of a denomination (not your own) which ARE grounded in Scripture but which you believe he is interpreting wrong based upon other Scriptures. For an example just look at the Faith vs Works discussion. Both sides will pull scripture verses and say, “See Scripture says, ‘thus and so’ right here.” This inability of the Protestant community to agree on the interpretation of Scripture is one of the main reasons I cannot except any of them.

Yes, the readings at mass are from the Bible of course but they are sometimes, on Sunday, followed by what I consider a very brief sermon and then let’s move on. We are told that we must be nourished by the WORD of God.As a layperson, I need a Pastor who explains the scriptures, who shows me how to apply them to MY life and how Jesus expected me to live based on His words. I get that at my church.

If all one needs is to prayerfully read the Bible, why do you need someone to explain it to you?
While I agree we need to have more substansive sermons in church, the purpose of the mass is different than what you get at your church. Most parishes these days do offer Bible studies and you most certainly could have asked, or even started one at your parish instead of leaving the Eucharist.

My experience in the catholic church, and I was guilty of it also, was that if a sermon lasted more than 12 to 15 minutes, people labeled that Priest as long winded. Why, because there was more to come and we should be out in 30 to 40 minutes.I have attended 20 minute masses, on Sunday because it was hot. What’s the rush? For most, not all, but most of those sitting in those pews, that 30 to 40 minutes or 20 minutes is all the nourishing their spiritual lives will get all week.

What you say here is sadly true. Especially about persons not getting enough spiritual nourishment. They are like the Corinthians receiving the Eucharist unworthily. Mainly I blame the horrible catachesis that the last few generations recieved in the 60’s - 80’s in the US. What the Catholic Church truely needs is more people with your outlook who say, “Hey we are here to worship and Honor Christ”. To remind People that they are receiving His Body and Blood and to act accordingly.

That is simply NOT enough.I tried to live a good catholic life,I really did but when I started to ask what I felt were reasonable, logical questions and the answers I started getting were seldom if ever based on scripture I started to question things even more.There were also answers which were based on VERY slim scriptural references.One had to REALLY stretch one’s imagination to “make it fit”. That is just not good enough.If I need to be nourished throughout my journey on this earth,My food MUST come from the Word of God.

And the Word of God is not a book but a person. Jesus. Who is fully and substantially present in the Eucharist. It is common for people to want “answers” and to keep things simple. I applaud keeping it simple. But I have seen just as much, and more, “making it fit” in protestantism as in the Catholic Church.

I hesitate to compare our denominational practices but in an effort to show another side of how it can be, I will. Our denomination has a book called the Discipline . I always refer to it as"the ground rules".You may quickly tell me it must be similar to the catechism.It is in many ways. It contains the Articles of Religion section which speaks on issues such as Faith in the Trinity, God’s purpose for humanity and so on. Each of these issues is followed by not one or two but several scriptural references to support the statement made. I will give you another example.The section dealing with" Repentance and Faith is followed by 39 scriptural references.

If I may ask, have you looked into the new Catachism? Have you read it?
Have you examined the extensive references to the Bible as well as other ancient Church Documents contained in the Catachism?

(Continued)

 

[JRKH]

(Cont. from above)

Each topic is discussed VERY briefly by the denomination but supported VERY heavily by scripture.We NEVER are made to accept anything related to faith or various practices within the church without being given at least one scriptural reference.Or at least that has been my experience to date. Is that not the way it should be?

I need to be very careful in how I answer this so not to give the wrong impression.
I dare say that every Catholic belief does have a biblical reference point. It is only that what you consider “reasonable” varies from Church.

When I ask a question now, my Pastor usually reaches for his Bible and says, here is the answer to that question. Please don’t think for one minute that all is perfect or all is exactly the way it should be within our denomination because trust me it is not. Why, because it is made up of men and women and children who are on a journey. We are imperfect beings but have a common goal of traveling together in hopes of being together in the next world.WE and especially I have our faults and have MUCH to change in our personal and collective lives but we are working on it while being focused on the Word of God.

And so you accept the imperfections of your current denomination. But decry the “imperfections” of the Catholic Church because it did not live up to what you consider to be “reasonable”.

Our sermons last about 30 to 40 minutes. However that is not the only "feeding"of the Word we receive all week. I attend a Bible study group one evening a week. I also read the Bible daily. only for a few minutes usually but it allows one to be better focused for the day.

So why did you not stay in the catholic Church and work to improve her instead of leaving. To go somewhere else to be “spoon fed” some or other doctrine from other pastors.

(Snip)
Let me give you one last example of an explanation I was given by a priest one time. I was at the funeral home visiting. An elderly 92 year old lady had died. The place was full and a priest happened to be there at the time.I noticed that people were buying mass cards by the dozen.I asked the priest, a man I knew well, how was it that Mary had died and was judged three days ago and still all these masses will be said for her soul in the next weeks and months. Is it not to late now? This was his answer. When Mary died three days ago and appeared before God to be judged, God already knew of all these masses which would be bought and all the prayers which, for years to come will be offered for the repose of her soul and He took all that into consideration when He pronounced His judgement on her.This explanation left me numb to say the least. Let me ask you. What do you think of that answer? What would you think if a priest explained it to you that way? Enough said for now. God bless your day .NLM

Personally I find nothing wrong with his answer. Assuming that she died hoping in the mercy and Love of Christ, but not perfected in Love, she would now be in purgatory. The Prayers and Masses offered for her would be beneficial both to the purification of her soul as well as the benefit of those who, In Love, purchase the masses.
Of course, whether you consider this answer reasonable depends on Your frame of reference.

peace
James

 

[wmscott]

Your interpretation of what I said is not correct. I was not for one minute commenting on any Priest’s ability to be good at public speaking or not. My point was simply this. The Catholic mass does not offer much time to focus on scripture. That is due to it’s structure NOT to the man up front who indeed is doing his best. Yes, I also have heard my parish Priest apply scripture to our lives but my other point is that the brief time alloted to scripture explanation in the mass is not ,in my opinion ,enough. Yes, I also ,as an individual have the responsability to expand on what is learned at church which is what I spoke about in my thread.

I think you misunderstand my statement, I was just stating an opinion from my viewpoint, and I was not trying to discredit your statements. However, in the order of the Mass there is an OT reading, an NT reading, 2 Psalms, and a Gospel reading. It comprises half the Mass. This process allows the Catholic to hear the word of God (the complete Bible) in a three-year period.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Anna -
I ask because I have had conversions here with people who, hold to a “Sola Scriptura - Spriit Led Interpretation of the Bible” and there is nothing - no reasoned argument that I could make that would convince them that MY “Spirit Led Journey and interpretation of The Bible” is just a valid as theirs. To them I was wrong and that is that.

James,

Before I launch into a discussion re “Sola Scriptura - Spriit Led Interpretation of the Bible;” I must ask you one question:

**Do you believe that anyone outside the Catholic Church has a valid “Spirit Led Journey and interpretation of The Bible?”
**
Anna