Catechism vs Scripture

[chaunceygardner]

“To be ignorant of the Scriptures is to be ignorant of Christ” DO you know who said that ? St. Jerome So yes, knowledge of the Scriptures has always been encouraged.

Of course people should be encouraged to read the bible; my point is that they don’t, and the Catholic Church did not really publicly encourage it until the time of Pius XII. And even then it took a while to change ingrained habits within the laity. I would say that bible literacy is improving, but still has a long way to go.

 

[wmscott]

ILL ANSWER YOUR QUESTION

Error (Rcc Catechism) vs. Truth (Holy Bible)
Error Vs. Truth RCC Catechism

1. Mary is the Mother of God. 963, 917, 2677

Bible- Mary was the Earthly Mother of Jesus (John 2:1)

Catechism 2.
Peter was the Head of the Apostles [552,768,880]

Bible - Christ was the Head of the apostles (John 13:13)

Catechism
3. Mary was a virgin Forever, During, and after the birth of Christ, 496-511

Bible Mary was a virgin until of Christ(Matthew 1:25). Later she had other children (Matthew 13:55, Psalms 69:8)

Catechism
2. The Bishop, is the Successor Of the Apostle [861-862, 936]

Bible - The Apostles had no Successor, for to Succeed them one needed to be a witness of Christ’s Resurrection (Acts 1:21, 22)

Catechism 3.
The Pope, as the bishop of Rome, is the successor of Peter [882, 938]

Bible -Peter had no Successor Catechism

1. The bishop, with Popes as their head, rules the universal Church [883, 894-896]. Bible -Christ, the Head of the Body, Rules the Universal Churches (Colossians 1:18)

Catechism 5.
God has Entrusted revelation to the Roman Catholic Bishops [81, 86]

Bible - God has Entrusted revelation to the Saints (Jude 3)

Catechism 6. The Magisterium is the authoritative teacher of the Church [85, 87]

Bible - The Holy Spirit is the authoritative teacher of the Church (John 14:26; 16:13; 1 John 2:27)

Catechism 8.
The Pope is infallible interpreter of the Scripture [891]

Bible -God Alone is infallible (Numbers 23:19)

Catechism 9. The Magisterium alone has the ability and the right to interpret the Scripture [85, 100, 939]

Bible -Every Christian, aided by the Holy Spirit, has Ability and the right to interpret the Scripture (Acts 17:11; 1 Corinthians 2:12-16)

Catechism 10.
Scripture is to be interpreted in the sense in which it has been define by the Magisterium [113, 119]

Bible - Scripture must be Interpreted in the original sense intended by the Holy Spirit (2 Peter 3:14 -16)

Catechism 11.
The Magisterium has the right to define truth found only obscurely or implicitly of the revelation [66, 82

Bible - No One has right to go beyond what is written in Scripture (1 Corinthians 4:6, Proverbs 30:6)

Catechism 12.
The Scripture and Tradition together are the Word of God [81, 85, 97, and 182]

Bible -Scripture is the Word of God (John 10:35; 2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:20, 21). Tradition is the Words of men (Mark 7:1-13)

Catechism 13.
Scripture and the Tradition together are the Church’s Supreme rule of Faith [80, 82]

Bible -Scripture is the Church’s only Rule of Faith (Mark 7:7-13, 2 Timothy 3:16, 17)

JesusOnlyWay, I agree that what you point out is overwhelming and grievous error, however it is on your part. You show your lack of proper knowledge of Sacred Scripture. I will take one of your points

Bible -Scripture is the Word of God (John 10:35; 2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:20, 21). Tradition is the Words of men (Mark 7:1-13) The tradition that Mark speaks of is man-made tradition, in this case ritual purification. this has nothing to do with Sacred Tradition. So the next question is since the canon of the Bible was set in the 4th century, and the Bible was not even mass produced until the printing press in the 16th century, what did the people use to receive the word of God by? It was the oral teachings of the Catholic Church (Sacred Tradition)

SACRED SCRIPTURE AND SACRED TRADITION

1Cor 11:2 - hold fast to traditions I handed on to you
2Thess 2:15 - hold fast to traditions, whether oral or by letter
2Thess 3:6 - shun those acting not according to tradition
Jn 21:25 - not everything Jesus said recorded in Scripture
Mk 13:31 - heaven & earth shall pass away, but my word won’t
Acts 20;35 - Paul records a saying of Jesus not found in gospels
2Tim 1:13 - follow my sound words; guard the truth
2Tim2:2 - what you heard entrust to faithful men
2Pet 1:20 - no prophecy is a matter of private interpretation
2Pet 3:15-16 - Paul’s letters can be difficult to grasp & interpret
1Pet 1:25 - God’s eternal word = word preached to you
Rom 10:17 - faith come from what is heard
1Cor 15:1-2 - being saved if you hold fast to the word I preached
Mk 16:15 - go to the whole world, proclaim gospel to every creature
Mt 23:2-3 - chair of Moses; observe whatever they tell you

 

[John92]

Hello,

My question regards how Catholics view the scriptures, catechisms, and other church teachings/documents.

From reading forums and Q&A’s, it seems to me that Catholics view the catechism as their primary or first rule/authority in life. (The catechisms being the church’s interpretation of the Bible, which of course makes the Bible the ultimate authority.)

From what I can tell, a Catholic usually first goes to the catechisms to answer questions regarding life, theology, etc.

As a protestant, I would usually go to the Bible first, and perhaps use a catechism or commentary to help me understand the scriptures. But I would usually go directly to the Bible first to answer a question. It seems that Catholics tend to do the opposite, though - go to the catechism first and foremost.

Is this an accurate perception? In the Catholic view, what are the positions of the Bible and the catechisms/church documents?

Thanks,
Adam

I’d say it is accurate.

The Bible is the inerrant word of God, but we Catholics believe this is only one third of the whole picture. The second aspect is the Sacred Tradition. This is what the apostles passed down to their students, whom they ordained as the first bishops/priests (the distinction wasn’t fully there in the very early Church), etc. This covers, for example, some of the points of Church organization and liturgy, a point on which the Bible is pretty quiet. The third aspect is the Magisterium, the teaching authority of the Church given by Christ. This interprets the Scripture and Tradition. When the Church meets in ecumenical counsel or the Pope speaks ex cathedra, we believe that the Holy Spirit guides them to speak infallibly, as it did in the Counsel of Jerusalem recorded in Acts. The Magisterium also offers fallible teachings which can be changed - this being called the Ordinary Magisterium. In a spirit of obedience and humility, we Catholics submit to this lesser Magisterium as well, though are not required to agree with it necessarily (just obey it). For example, the Ordinary Magisterium teaches that smoking marijuana is a mortal sin. Catholics must submit to this teaching, and breaking it would indeed be a mortal sin, even though we may believe in our own heads that marijuana-smoking is, in essence, not a mortal sin.

The Catechism represents the teaching of the Magisterium - though not the whole teaching, per se; to record everything the Magisterium teaches and has taught would fill a library easily. It covers the important stuff though, and has the basic dogma that all Catholics are (or should be, anyway) educated in.

So we turn to the Catechism so that we interpret the Scripture and Tradition without error. The Bible warns us of interpreting scripture on our own authority. Though you shouldn’t characterize us as “catechism-christians”. The Bible is widely read too, on its own, bearing in mind the teaching of the Church.

If you want some defenses of why the Church denies sola scriptura, and how such a belief can be derived from scripture, check out www.scripturecatholic.com

 

[chrisuncle]

i disagree mind you i dont have scripture backing me up. holy spirit comunicating to most people from an exterior comunication is ideal but our biggest weakness id like to one day have a personal relationship with the holy spirit from within the body by being blessed by a pastor

 

[JesusOnlyWay]

You must realize that the Catholics who participate in these forums are outside the norm. They are way above average when it comes to reading the Bible, the Catechism and other church writings. The Catechism is a teaching tool, giving and explaining Catholic beliefs. As has been stated previously and as can be seen from looking at a Catechism, it has its basis in scripture. If you were to survey American Catholics, I would guess very few would have a copy of the Catechism at home, much less read it. Of course, a minority read the bible on a regular basis, as well.

Your query leads me to the question “from where do Catholics get their knowledge, their answers”? Again, discounting most of those on this forum, I don’t know where they go. We could say where they should be looking for the answers, but do they? That would make a good survey.

My anecdotal evidence is that many Catholics have accumulated a store of belief based on what they have learned (and remember) from years of Religious Education, readings at Mass, homilies, and what they have picked up from the general media and others. What they retain and what they really understand of it is very piecemeal. There is no real systematic way to build on this knowledge, nor is there any program (that I am aware of) that says “This is what you must know to have a good grounding in the Catholic faith”, and then takes them through the process of giving them that knowledge.

As we have read in other postings, Catholics are at a great disadvantage vs. Protestants when it comes to explaining and defending their faith. I have seen that many times.

As to the reliance on the Catechism and other church documents over the bible, I think that is a result of the Catholic education process, and the emphasis over the years that we should look to the Church before the bible to understand our faith. Protestants were led astray by relying only on the bible, and this gave many Catholics the feeling that there was something bad about reading or studying the bible, and that doing so could lead them astray as well. That thought has not yet disappeard from the back of the Catholic mind.

WHY DO PEOPLE NEED TO CREATE CATECHISM? IS IT TO MAKE THEMSELVES GOD?

WHY NEED TO READ AND BELIEVE THE WORDS OF MAN? NOT THE WORDS OF GOD?

YOU SAY CATECHISM IS IN HARMONY IN THE BIBLE? IF IT IS… WHY ARE THEY CONTRADICTING TO EACH OTHER?

“Protestants were led astray by relying only on the bible, and this gave many Catholics the feeling that there was something bad about reading or studying the bible, and that doing so could lead them astray as well.”

~OH SO YOU WE’RE SAYING BIBLE LEAD PEOPLE ASTRAY… AND THE CATECHISM LED THEM BACK TO THE RIGHT TRACK? YOU WERE SAYING THAT THE WORDS OF MAN IS GREATER THAN THE WORD OF GOD.

OH WELL… MAY GOD BLESS US ALL

 

[JesusOnlyWay]

JesusOnlyWay, I agree that what you point out is overwhelming and grievous error, however it is on your part. You show your lack of proper knowledge of Sacred Scripture. I will take one of your points

Bible -Scripture is the Word of God (John 10:35; 2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:20, 21). Tradition is the Words of men (Mark 7:1-13) The tradition that Mark speaks of is man-made tradition, in this case ritual purification. this has nothing to do with Sacred Tradition. So the next question is since the canon of the Bible was set in the 4th century, and the Bible was not even mass produced until the printing press in the 16th century, what did the people use to receive the word of God by? It was the oral teachings of the Catholic Church (Sacred Tradition)

SACRED SCRIPTURE AND SACRED TRADITION

1Cor 11:2 - hold fast to traditions I handed on to you
2Thess 2:15 - hold fast to traditions, whether oral or by letter
2Thess 3:6 - shun those acting not according to tradition
Jn 21:25 - not everything Jesus said recorded in Scripture
Mk 13:31 - heaven & earth shall pass away, but my word won’t
Acts 20;35 - Paul records a saying of Jesus not found in gospels
2Tim 1:13 - follow my sound words; guard the truth
2Tim2:2 - what you heard entrust to faithful men
2Pet 1:20 - no prophecy is a matter of private interpretation
2Pet 3:15-16 - Paul’s letters can be difficult to grasp & interpret
1Pet 1:25 - God’s eternal word = word preached to you
Rom 10:17 - faith come from what is heard
1Cor 15:1-2 - being saved if you hold fast to the word I preached
Mk 16:15 - go to the whole world, proclaim gospel to every creature
Mt 23:2-3 - chair of Moses; observe whatever they tell you

What does Jesus say about Tradition?

"Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? [Y]e made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. Ye hypocrites."

--Jesus Christ
    Matthew 15:3, 6, 7

**1. **1 Corinthians 15:3, 11 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.

Where does it say, “Listen to Catholic Tradition?” Relevance please? Where does it say this was passed down by oral tradition?
**
2.**2 Tim 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

Where does it say, “Listen to Catholic Tradition?” Relevance please? Where does it say this is oral tradition?
**
3.**
John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

Relevance please? This does not commend us to the Traditions of the Catholic religion. Where does it say this is oral tradition?

ETC
1 Corinthians 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you. ~ Where does it say, “Listen to Catholic Tradition?” Relevance please?
2 Timothy 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also. ~ Where does it say, “Listen to Catholic Tradition?” Relevance please?
2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. ~ Where does it say, “Listen to Catholic Tradition?” Relevance please? Paul is instructing people who heard him and his fellowlaborers.

If the pope was a man of God, what would he do?

Instead of bossing everybody around and telling them how to disobey the scriptures, he’d agree with Paul by saying…

2 Corinthians 1:24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.

Hallelujah and thank you Jesus for laying it all out in your word! You are the Word (John 1:1)! Jesus never sanctioned the organization of the Catholic religion, in fact He hates it.

Is the Bible enough?

The Catholic religion says, “No, the Bible is not enough. You have to keep it in perspective.” But the Bible says something entirely different. Revelation says the BIBLE IS COMPLETE. That means the Bible ain’t missin’ nothin! There is nothing to be added and nothing to be taken away.

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22:18-19

If you are a Catholic person teaching people to believe in Tradition, you need to re-evaluate what you are doing. Not only do you follow a false gospel, you add to and subtract from God’s word. You might want to read the above again and consider what you are doing.

I’ve compiled a list of every New Testament reference to the word “scripture”. NO WHERE will you find it say that the scriptures are not sufficient for everthing that we need. One Catholic told me,

"The Bible itself never claims to be the sole rule of faith. The Bible claims itself useful to settle disputes, etc..but never, anywhere does it say that faith and Christianity is taught ONLY through the Bible."

Of course this is not true, but the larger question is this:

Where does the Bible say that it is NOT the sole rule of faith?

If what you believe is supposed to be based on the Bible, then logically speaking, there must be a place that specifically sanctions the Catholic religion and its traditions. You won’t find it. The burden of proof rests on the Catholic, not the Bible believer.

 

[Rolltide]

Is the Bible enough?

The Catholic religion says, “No, the Bible is not enough. You have to keep it in perspective.” But the Bible says something entirely different. Revelation says the BIBLE IS COMPLETE. That means the Bible ain’t missin’ nothin! There is nothing to be added and nothing to be taken away.

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22:18-19

The “book” referred to is Revelation itself, not the entirety of the Bible (the Bible, of course, being a compilation of MANY books and letters). The “Bible” didn’t EXIST when Revelation was written, nor would it for another 300 years. It is an impossibility that this passage could be referring to the Holy Bible as an entity.

Most Christians didn’t even accept Revelations as inspired until well after 300 AD! The vast majority of regions EXCLUDED Revelations from their local copies of scripture!

Now… what’s even more interesting is WHY that changed! It was a series of CATHOLIC councils… the Councils of Rome, Hippo, and Carthage, that FORCED this book back into the canon and established the Bible that we know today.

If these Catholic Church councils were NOT inspired, then Revelation needs to be thrown out of the Bible. (BTW… Luther almost did just that)

 

[incense]

Now as a slightly above average in Catholic knowledge Catholic, if I had a moral question, I would definitely go to the catechism first. Bible verses would of course pop into my head, and I would have a general idea, but I would look to the Church for guidance. Whew, and be glad she’s there to help me too.

Artificial birth control, women priests, divorcing and remarrying, aid to the dying, are not issues that I independantly figured out correctly on my own. Just to name a few. Thank God I swallowed my pride and trusted. And He graciously let’s me see later why it is so.

I want to act in accord to what God wants. I might not be judged guilty by God because I didn’'t understand correctly. But I would still be doing harm to others and myself, and offering hurt to God instead of love and worship. It really is important to get it right. And the catechism is a wonderful gift that I won’t snub.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

The “book” referred to is Revelation itself, not the entirety of the Bible (the Bible, of course, being a compilation of MANY books and letters). The “Bible” didn’t EXIST when Revelation was written, nor would it for another 300 years. It is an impossibility that this passage could be referring to the Holy Bible as an entity.

Most Christians didn’t even accept Revelations as inspired until well after 300 AD! The vast majority of regions EXCLUDED Revelations from their local copies of scripture!

Now… what’s even more interesting is WHY that changed! It was a series of CATHOLIC councils… the Councils of Rome, Hippo, and Carthage, that FORCED this book back into the canon and established the Bible that we know today.

If these Catholic Church councils were NOT inspired, then Revelation needs to be thrown out of the Bible. (BTW… Luther almost did just that)

He tried. He threw it out of the canon, along with the Epistles of James and Jude. Here’s his own writing about them, explaining his reasons for excluding them from the canon (along with several direct insults against their sacred words):
bible-researcher.com/antilegomena.html
He also dumped Hebrews from the canon. As well as the seven Deuterocanonical books that most Protestants still have removed from their canon.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

WHY DO PEOPLE NEED TO CREATE CATECHISM? IS IT TO MAKE THEMSELVES GOD?

That is a new one

WHY NEED TO READ AND BELIEVE THE WORDS OF MAN? NOT THE WORDS OF GOD?

If this is the case, why do you have anything at all to say to us? We do not need you by your own admission. We have our Bibles, leave us be because we don’t apparently, “need to read and believe the words of man”.

Oh and some one maybe should have reminded Philip your words of wisdom:

And behold, an Ethiopian, a eunuch, a minister of the Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, in charge of all her treasure, had come to Jerusalem to worship and was returning; seated in his chariot, he was reading the prophet Isaiah. And the Spirit said to Philip, “Go up and join this chariot.” So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?” And he said, "How can I, unless some one guides me?" And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him…Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this scripture he told him the good news of Jesus. Acts 8: 27-31,35

Philip probably should have kept his mouth shut and told the Ethiopian to read the Bible for himself… Well according to you any way

YOU SAY CATECHISM IS IN HARMONY IN THE BIBLE? IF IT IS… WHY ARE THEY CONTRADICTING TO EACH OTHER?

They don’t. They only contradict your fallible opinion on what the Written Word of God is saying.

God bless you

 

[adamjthompson]

Catechisms are inter denominational.Catholics are not the only ones who have them.So why are not those denominations being questioned(lutheran, anglican, Calvinist at al)? Or do you have a problem only with Catholics?maybe you should make your criticism more ecumenical?

I am a Calvinist, so I’m familiar with the use of the Catechism there. Catholics seem to view the Catechism much higher (closer in authority to scripture) than Calvinists, do, so hence my question.

My question was not a criticism as such, but an attempt to understand the Catholic theological worldview and foundational tenets.

 

[tobinatorstark]

Of course people should be encouraged to read the bible; my point is that they don’t, and the Catholic Church did not really publicly encourage it until the time of Pius XII. And even then it took a while to change ingrained habits within the laity. I would say that bible literacy is improving, but still has a long way to go.

excuse me! St. Jerome said ignorance of scriptures is ignorance of Christ in the 400’s. The Bible has been encourage well before Pius XII. You are even disregarding Leo XIII Providentissimus Deus, which is the study of Sacred Scripture and how throughout history we have been in encouraged to read the Bible.

 

[adamjthompson]

If this is the case, why do you have anything at all to say to us? We do not need you by your own admission. We have our Bibles, leave us be because we don’t apparently, “need to read and believe the words of man”.

Valid point. If words of man are to be totally discounted, we could have no encouraging, teaching, rebuking, etc. We would just all sit quietly and read our Bibles - we couldn’t even talk about what we read. That would be pretty ridiculous.

 

[tobinatorstark]

WHY DO PEOPLE NEED TO CREATE CATECHISM? IS IT TO MAKE THEMSELVES GOD?

WHY NEED TO READ AND BELIEVE THE WORDS OF MAN? NOT THE WORDS OF GOD?

YOU SAY CATECHISM IS IN HARMONY IN THE BIBLE? IF IT IS… WHY ARE THEY CONTRADICTING TO EACH OTHER?

“Protestants were led astray by relying only on the bible, and this gave many Catholics the feeling that there was something bad about reading or studying the bible, and that doing so could lead them astray as well.”

~OH SO YOU WE’RE SAYING BIBLE LEAD PEOPLE ASTRAY… AND THE CATECHISM LED THEM BACK TO THE RIGHT TRACK? YOU WERE SAYING THAT THE WORDS OF MAN IS GREATER THAN THE WORD OF GOD.

OH WELL… MAY GOD BLESS US ALL

The Catechism does not make us God. It is an indepth explaination of our faith. It contains sacred scripture, sacred traditon(as promoted in sacred scripture) and magisterial teaching (also promoted in sacred scripture). These aren’t words of man. You automatically assume since it isn’t a Bible that it shouldn’t be read because Christ didn’t say that. It also says in scripture not everything Jesus did and said was recorded in words but observed in tradition of Christ non man. Your last paragraph is completely false and that isn’t promoted or intended.

 

[wmscott]

JesusOnlyWay

What are you a parrot? Please come up with something new, all you have done is cut and pasted the anti-Catholic talking points. You are all over the place and seem like a fanatic when posting here. You obviously know very little about the history of Christianity and you definitely do not have any original thoughts of your own other than to fallible misinterpret Sacred Scripture. Actually, you are making allegations on a Catholic web site; the burden of proof is yours. However, I will list the Sacred Scripture passages that you need to properly educate yourself. the fa

THE CHURCH
Mt 16:18-19 - upon this rock I will build my Church
Mt 18:17 - if he refuses to listen even to the Church…
Mt 28:18-20 - go baptize and teach all nations
Mk 16:15-16 - go to whole world and proclaim gospel
Lk 10:16 - whoever hears you, hears me; rejects you, rejects me.
Jn 14:16, 26 - Holy Spirit with you always, teach/remind you of everything
Jn 16:13 - Spirit of truth will guide you to all truth.
1Tim 3:15 - Church is the pillar and foundation of truth.

THE CHURCH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST
Col 1:18 - He is the head of the body, the church.
1 Cor 12:20-27 - you are Christ’s body, individually parts of it.
Eph 5:30 - we are members of His body.
Rom 12:4-5 - though many, we are one body in Christ
1 Cor 6:15 - Don’t you know your bodies are members of Christ?

THE CHURCH MUST BE ONE
Jn 10:16 - there will be one fold and one shepherd.
Eph 4:3-6 - one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father
Rom 16:17 - I urge that there be no divisions among you
1Cor 1:10 - I urge that there be no divisions among you
Phil 2:2 - be of same mind, united in heart thinking one thing
Rom 15:5 - God grant you to think in harmony with one another
Jn 17:17-23 - I pray that they may be one, as we are one
Jn 17:23 - that they may be brought to perfection as one
1Cor 12:13 - in one spirit we are baptized into one body
Rom 12:5 - we, though many, are one body in Christ
Eph 4:4 - one body, one Spirit, called to be one hope
Col 3:15 - the peace into which you were called in one body
Mt 16:18-19 - upon this rock I will build my Church (singular)
Mt 18:17 - tell it to THE Church; if he refuses to listen even to THE Church… (must be visible)

APOSTOLIC CHURCH
Jn 15;16 - Jesus chose special men to be his Apostles
Jn 20:21 - Jesus gave the Apostles his own mission
Lk 22:29-3 - Jesus gave them a kingdom
Mt 16:18 - Jesus built Church on Peter, the rock
Jn 10:16 - one shepherd to shepherd Christ’s sheep
Lk 22:32, Jn 21:17 - Peter appointed to be chief shepherd
Eph 4;11 - church leaders are hierarchical
1Tim 3:1, 8; 5:17 - identifies roles of bishops, priests, deacons
Tit 1:5 - commission for bishops to ordain priests

AUTHORITATIVE CHURCH
Mt 28:18-20 - Jesus delegates all power to Apostles
Jn 20:23 - power to forgive sin
1Cor 11:23-24 - power to offer sacrifice (Eucharist)
Lk 10:16 - power to speak with Christ’s voice
Mt 18:18 - power to legislate
Mt 18:17 - power to discipline

INFALLIBLE CHURCH
Jn 16:13 - guided by Holy Spirit into all truth
Jn 14:26 - Holy Spirit to teach & remind them of everything
Lk 10:16 - speak with Christ’s own voice
1Tim 3:15 - Church called “pillar and foundation of truth”
1Jn 2:27 - anointing of Holy Spirit remains in you
Acts 15:28 - Apostles speak with voice of Holy Spirit
Mt 28:20 - I am with you

PERPETUAL CHURCH
Is 9:6-7 - of Christ’s government there will be no end
Dan 2:44 - God’s kingdom shall stand forever
Dan 7:14 - His kingdom shall not be destroyed
Eph 3:21 - to him be glory in the church to all generations forever and ever.
Lk 1:32, 33 - no end to Christ’s kingdom
Mt 7:24 - Jesus is like a wise man who built his house on a rock
Mt 13:24-30 - let wheat & weeds grow together until harvest
Mt 16:18 - gates of hell will never prevail against Christ’s church
Jn 14:16 - Holy Spirit will be with you always
Mt 28:19-20 - I am with you all days

PAPACY & APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION
PRIMACY OF PETER
Mt 16:18 - upon this rock (Peter) I will build my church
Mt 16;19 - give you keys of the kingdom; power to bind & loose
Lk 22:32 - Peter’s faith will strengthen his brethren
Jn 21:17 - given Christ’s flock as chief shepherd
Mk 16:7 - angel sent to announce Resurrection to Peter
Lk 24:34 - risen Jesus first appeared to Peter
Acts 1:13-26 - headed meeting which elected Matthias
Acts 2:14 - led Apostles in preaching on Pentecost
Acts 2:41 - received first converts
Acts 3:6-7 - performed first miracle after Pentecost
Acts 5:1-11 - inflicted first punishment: Ananias & Saphira
Acts 8:21 - excommunicated first heretic, Simon Magnus
Acts 10:44-46 - received revelation to admit Gentiles into Church
Acts 15:7 - led first council in Jerusalem
Acts 15:19 - pronounces first dogmatic decision
Gal 1:18 - after conversion, Paul visits chief Apostle
Peter’s name always heads list of Apostles: Mt 10;14; Mk 3:16-19; Lk 6:14-16; Acts 1:13
“Peter and his companions” Lk 9:32; Mk 16:7
Spoke for Apostles - Mt 18:21; Mk 8:29; Lk 8:45; 12:41; Jn 6:69
Peter’s name occurs 195 times, more than all the rest put together

APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION
2 Chr 19:11 - high priest is over you in everything of Lord’s
Mal 2:7 - seek instruction from priest, he is God’s messenger
Eph 2:20 - Church built upon foundation of apostles & prophets
Eph 4:11 - God gave some as apostles, others as prophets…
1 Cor 12:28-29 - God designated in church: apostles, …
Acts 1:20 - let another take his office
Acts 1:25-26 - Matthias takes Judas’ apostolic ministry
1 Tim 3:1, 8; 5:17 - qualifications for: bishops, priests, & deacons
1Tim 4:14 - gift conferred with the laying on of hands
1Tim 5:22 - do not lay hands too readily on anyone
Acts 14:23 - they appointed presbyters in each church
2Tim 2:2 - what you heard from me entrust to faithful teachers
Titus 1:5 - appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed

You have been provided insurmountable and irrefutable references from Sacred Scripture regarding the Catholic Church. The fact that you claim to be a Bible believing Christian how do you justify ignoring and standing in disbelief of Sacred Scripture. Please do not insult us with your own fallible personal interpretation and expect Catholics to come running to you for spiritual guidance.

 

[juliamajor]

I am a Calvinist, so I’m familiar with the use of the Catechism there. Catholics seem to view the Catechism much higher (closer in authority to scripture) than Calvinists, do, so hence my question.

My question was not a criticism as such, but an attempt to understand the Catholic theological worldview and foundational tenets.

Like any Catechism I think it is basically what a particular denomination believes and why.Protestants were actually the first ones to use the catechism form! Catholic catechisms were written after Trent as a response to Protestant catechisms.Again clarifying what one believes and why backed by scripture.since we are a non-sola scriptura church we also take Sacred Tradition and scripture to define who and what we believe ,how we believe it, why we believe. Sometimes people may think they know and may come into conflict.The catechism can be used as an arbiter-to see what the church really says and not just what one person thinks.To me it’s a reference book of clarifications-which I think why it was written to begin with.
I apologize for being crankyPlease forgive me

 

[adamjthompson]

Please forgive me

If there is anything to forgive, I gladly forgive you.

 

[Ignatius]

As a protestant, I would usually go to the Bible first, and perhaps use a catechism or commentary to help me understand the scriptures. But I would usually go directly to the Bible first to answer a question. It seems that Catholics tend to do the opposite, though - go to the catechism first and foremost.

Is this an accurate perception?

No, that’s incorrect. Catholics use the Bible and Catechism exactly as you described, i.e. go to the Bible first, and use a catechism to help understand the scriptures

 

[PJM]

=adamjthompson;5484745]Hello,

My question regards how Catholics view the scriptures, catechisms, and other church teachings/documents.

From reading forums and Q&A’s, it seems to me that Catholics view the catechism as their primary or first rule/authority in life. (The catechisms being the church’s interpretation of the Bible, which of course makes the Bible the ultimate authority.)

From what I can tell, a Catholic usually first goes to the catechisms to answer questions regarding life, theology, etc.

As a protestant, I would usually go to the Bible first, and perhaps use a catechism or commentary to help me understand the scriptures. But I would usually go directly to the Bible first to answer a question. It seems that Catholics tend to do the opposite, though - go to the catechism first and foremost.

Is this an accurate perception? In the Catholic view, what are the positions of the Bible and the catechisms/church documents?

Thanks,
Adam

***Hi Adam,

Great question. Thank you.***

I don’t have the same perspective as you do, which is not to say that I’m in complete disagreement with you.

The Bible is always true, but not always factual. [Creation is seven days for example. It may have been seven day. years or seconds? God WILLED the Universe into being.]

The Catecheism is the Truth of the Bible and the Wisdom of about 2,000 years of study reflection, and Divinely guided understanding. This it is simply TRUE and FACTUAL… Thus it serves as intended as the go to reference book, but only because it too is founded on Biblical truth as is the entire Catholic Faith.

THEE Church claims to be the source of all truth on matters of Faith and Morals ONLY.

Love and prayers,

 

[MariaG]

I am a Calvinist, so I’m familiar with the use of the Catechism there. Catholics seem to view the Catechism much higher (closer in authority to scripture) than Calvinists, do, so hence my question.

My question was not a criticism as such, but an attempt to understand the Catholic theological worldview and foundational tenets.

That can be tough, for there is a wide range of cultures, thoughts etc.

For me, although I reach for the Catechism, it is like using a concordance and helps me to p(name removed by moderator)oint the scripture I need to read on a particular subject.

As I came from Protestant churches, my first impulse is to say you are completely wrong. You seem to be implying that a manmade document is seen to be almost the same in authority as God’s word. However, that is just my knee jerk reaction.

We have a three legged stool to stand on, not just on the word of God, which nowhere in scripture does it tell us to rely on scripture alone by the way

However, my time is up. I will try to come back and flesh this out.

It can be hard to understand completely. I know as a revert who is more like a convert, I sometimes have to think very carefully, because the things said by Catholics when it comes to scripture, can make my Evangelical heart rise up in protest. Yet when I calm down, and know where they are coming from, I can agree.